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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 12:12:20 GMT
Whilst I'd agree that there's an undercurrent of anti-semitism among certain sections of Israel's critics, we shouldn't discount any criticism of Zionism or current Israeli policy as being anti-semitic. Criticisng specific Israeli actions per se is no more anti-semitic than criticising certain actions in Saudi Arabia is anti-Islamic. The propensity to shout down all critics of Israel as being anti-semitic is a very dangerous strand of thinking too. And similarly, we shouldn't discount all criticism of immigration as racism. For most people, it's a matter of logistics. I quite agree but that's by no means a clear left/right wing issue. Some of the most vociferous opponents of mass immigration are traditional Old Labour types.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 12:16:18 GMT
Mass immigration is a funny thing ....It's all one way.
Never the other.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 15:45:18 GMT
There are about the same number of Poles in the UK as there are Brits in Spain. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. 'Twas ever thus.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 18:32:51 GMT
There are about the same number of Poles in the UK as there are Brits in Spain. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. 'Twas ever thus. There are more Muslims in the country than there are Scots. The reason why the Poles came into this country is not to spend their retirement wealth as the former UK residents are doing abroad in Spain but to work and claim other financial opportunities freely available and superior to what they have back home. Meanwhile the resident Pakistani community in Oldham are infuriated at the moment by the influx of more Eastern Europeans from Romania who are apparently thieving , committing other crimes and dumping rubbish in the area . Both sides are accusing the other of racist abuse.... This town used to be 'English' !
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Post by thevoid on Jul 23, 2014 21:59:49 GMT
There are about the same number of Poles in the UK as there are Brits in Spain. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. 'Twas ever thus. The Poles aren't threatening the country that took them in, or holding demonstrations about it. Likewise, the Brits in Spain are there because they like the country and way of life, and I very much doubt they'd be there if they didn't. The day you see the Brits burning the Spanish flag, get back to me, but the Guardia Civil will have taken care of that before then.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 22:01:44 GMT
There are about the same number of Poles in the UK as there are Brits in Spain. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. 'Twas ever thus. There are more Muslims in the country than there are Scots. The reason why the Poles came into this country is not to spend their retirement wealth as the former UK residents are doing abroad in Spain but to work and claim other financial opportunities freely available and superior to what they have back home. Meanwhile the resident Pakistani community in Oldham are infuriated at the moment by the influx of more Eastern Europeans from Romania who are apparently thieving , committing other crimes and dumping rubbish in the area . Both sides are accusing the other of racist abuse.... This town used to be 'English' ! I quite agree that people come to the UK to be better off - many Brits go to Dubai or Saudi for exactly the same reason - you'd hardly expect people to uproot their families and emigrate for a worse life. You can't blame people for wanting to improve their lot, whether they're economic migrants in the UK, grubby sex tourists in South East Asia or retired sunseekers in Spain (although in reality the retired only make up around 25% of Spain's British expat population). If you believe the official statistics then immigrants into the UK are net contributors, financially at least. Clearly the loss of indigenous cultural identity is a perfectly valid concern for some that's been ignored or written off as racist for far too long.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 22:09:18 GMT
There are about the same number of Poles in the UK as there are Brits in Spain. People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. 'Twas ever thus. The Poles aren't the problem. I wasn't attempting to attribute "problem" status to any group of immigrants - merely to illustrate that mumf's claim "mass immigration...is all one way" isn't actually true. It goes all sorts of different ways. We live in a globalised world, for better or worse, and the (relatively) free movement of people is a big pillar of that. Whether you or I agree with it or not is largely irrelevant; it's reality.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 23, 2014 22:15:26 GMT
The Poles aren't the problem. I wasn't attempting to attribute "problem" status to any group of immigrants - merely to illustrate that mumf's claim "mass immigration...is all one way" isn't actually true. It goes all sorts of different ways. We live in a globalised world, for better or worse, and the (relatively) free movement of people is a big pillar of that. Whether you or I agree with it or not is largely irrelevant; it's reality. But when in another country, you respect that nation's values and traditions, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 22:18:37 GMT
You are right , you wouldn't expect people to uproot their families and emigrate for a worse life , but would the same opportunities be given to us in places like Eastern Europe , Pakistan , India etc .
No is the answer.
We give ...they take.
No I don't recognise the official stats either. I know several people who work in immigration and the plain and simple answer they give to the notion that the immigrants are net contributors is that the calculations DO NOT INCLUDE THE 1.5 MILLION people living and working illegally. It blows apart the net effect totally.
They also tell me that of the asylum applications they pass or process , between 80-90% are not genuine. Less than 10% are ever deported. I have no reason to doubt their opinions especially when under Theresa May's reign last year over 300,000 immigrants entered the country 'unchecked' due to an Immigration and Customs giant fuck up.!
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Post by thevoid on Jul 23, 2014 22:24:11 GMT
There are more Muslims in the country than there are Scots. The reason why the Poles came into this country is not to spend their retirement wealth as the former UK residents are doing abroad in Spain but to work and claim other financial opportunities freely available and superior to what they have back home. Meanwhile the resident Pakistani community in Oldham are infuriated at the moment by the influx of more Eastern Europeans from Romania who are apparently thieving , committing other crimes and dumping rubbish in the area . Both sides are accusing the other of racist abuse.... This town used to be 'English' ! I quite agree that people come to the UK to be better off - many Brits go to Dubai or Saudi for exactly the same reason - you'd hardly expect people to uproot their families and emigrate for a worse life. You can't blame people for wanting to improve their lot, whether they're economic migrants in the UK, grubby sex tourists in South East Asia or retired sunseekers in Spain (although in reality the retired only make up around 25% of Spain's British expat population). If you believe the official statistics then immigrants into the UK are net contributors, financially at least. Clearly the loss of indigenous cultural identity is a perfectly valid concern for some that's been ignored or written off as racist for far too long. And those Brits who do go to Dubai respect the local laws and customs...or face the consequences. The same should apply here, but how strange that certain groups who openly detest democracy...demand their right to that bastion of democracy, free speech (when the words suit their own agenda).
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 22:25:23 GMT
I wasn't attempting to attribute "problem" status to any group of immigrants - merely to illustrate that mumf's claim "mass immigration...is all one way" isn't actually true. It goes all sorts of different ways. We live in a globalised world, for better or worse, and the (relatively) free movement of people is a big pillar of that. Whether you or I agree with it or not is largely irrelevant; it's reality. But when in another country, you respect that nation's values and traditions, yes? Personally speaking I'd only ever move to a country in order to integrate, and I'd only move to one whose fundamental values I got on with. But I wouldn't hold it against people for wanting to "stick to their own" in expat communities, whether it's Bradford, the Costa del Sol or an armed compound in Saudi. Should all Brits in Dubai be made to abstain from sex outside marriage, alcohol or pork?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 22:34:04 GMT
But when in another country, you respect that nation's values and traditions, yes? Personally speaking I'd only ever move to a country in order to integrate, and I'd only move to one whose fundamental values I got on with. But I wouldn't hold it against people for wanting to "stick to their own" in expat communities, whether it's Bradford, the Costa del Sol or an armed compound in Saudi. Should all Brits in Dubai be made to abstain from sex outside marriage, alcohol or pork? Should all Brits revert back to medieval customs written 1500 years ago by some puddled bugger but still is observed today is a more poignant question > ? Should their wives hair and faces be hidden by a full veil >? Should their young girls be allowed to bathe and swim in the sea.? Should they be allowed to marry who they want..? Insane.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 23, 2014 22:42:27 GMT
But when in another country, you respect that nation's values and traditions, yes? Personally speaking I'd only ever move to a country in order to integrate, and I'd only move to one whose fundamental values I got on with. But I wouldn't hold it against people for wanting to "stick to their own" in expat communities, whether it's Bradford, the Costa del Sol or an armed compound in Saudi. Should all Brits in Dubai be made to abstain from sex outside marriage, alcohol or pork? I see you're struggling, you keep playing your Strawman card. I like Spain. I plan to buy property there one day, but I prefer a curry to a paella...now, I don't think the locals will be too bothered by that, nor the fact I'd rather listen to a bit of house music rather than Flamenco, as each to their own. However, the day I start pissing and moaning over there about how much I hate Spain, it's culture and Spanish people, I'd be rather naive if I thought the locals would let it slide without at least a polite "Here are directions to Palma airport, English" (or words to that effect).
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 22:57:00 GMT
Personally speaking I'd only ever move to a country in order to integrate, and I'd only move to one whose fundamental values I got on with. But I wouldn't hold it against people for wanting to "stick to their own" in expat communities, whether it's Bradford, the Costa del Sol or an armed compound in Saudi. Should all Brits in Dubai be made to abstain from sex outside marriage, alcohol or pork? Should all Brits revert back to medieval customs written 1500 years ago by some puddled bugger but still is observed today is a more poignant question > ? Should their wives hair and faces be hidden by a full veil >? Should their young girls be allowed to bathe and swim in the sea.? Should they be allowed to marry who they want..? Insane. Your first question isn't a poignant one, it's a loaded one. Semantics aside, Conservative Islamic values and traditions certainly don't represent my beliefs in any way but if some Arabs want to live by them then fine. I was merely pointing out that in Dubai there is some special dispensation given to non-Muslims.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 23:10:08 GMT
Personally speaking I'd only ever move to a country in order to integrate, and I'd only move to one whose fundamental values I got on with. But I wouldn't hold it against people for wanting to "stick to their own" in expat communities, whether it's Bradford, the Costa del Sol or an armed compound in Saudi. Should all Brits in Dubai be made to abstain from sex outside marriage, alcohol or pork? I see you're struggling, you keep playing your Strawman card. I like Spain. I plan to buy property there one day, but I prefer a curry to a paella...now, I don't think the locals will be too bothered by that, nor the fact I'd rather listen to a bit of house music rather than Flamenco, as each to their own. However, the day I start pissing and moaning over there about how much I hate Spain, it's culture and Spanish people, I'd be rather naive if I thought the locals would let it slide without at least a polite "Here are directions to Palma airport, English" (or words to that effect). Not really struggling no; you're not comparing like with like. You referenced "values and traditions", which is hardly a case of house music vs flamenco. However daft it may seem to you or I (and it does seem daft to me certainly) drinking alcohol in conservative Islamic cultures is a really big deal. I've met expats in Spain and in my experience all they do is piss and moan to be honest. Which I've no problem with - no country is perfect and we Brits do love a moan.
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Post by thevoid on Jul 23, 2014 23:17:02 GMT
I see you're struggling, you keep playing your Strawman card. I like Spain. I plan to buy property there one day, but I prefer a curry to a paella...now, I don't think the locals will be too bothered by that, nor the fact I'd rather listen to a bit of house music rather than Flamenco, as each to their own. However, the day I start pissing and moaning over there about how much I hate Spain, it's culture and Spanish people, I'd be rather naive if I thought the locals would let it slide without at least a polite "Here are directions to Palma airport, English" (or words to that effect). Not really struggling no; you're not comparing like with like. You referenced "values and traditions", which is hardly a case of house music vs flamenco. However daft it may seem to you or I (and it does seem daft to me certainly) drinking alcohol in conservative Islamic cultures is a really big deal. I've met expats in Spain and in my experience all they do is piss and moan to be honest. Which I've no problem with - no country is perfect and we Brits do love a moan. Always an answer...you're boring me now, there's no point debating with a left wing cretin who thinks they have an answer to everything based on the Utopian little bubble they like to live in.
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Post by elsidibe on Jul 23, 2014 23:33:24 GMT
Not really struggling no; you're not comparing like with like. You referenced "values and traditions", which is hardly a case of house music vs flamenco. However daft it may seem to you or I (and it does seem daft to me certainly) drinking alcohol in conservative Islamic cultures is a really big deal. I've met expats in Spain and in my experience all they do is piss and moan to be honest. Which I've no problem with - no country is perfect and we Brits do love a moan. Always an answer...you're boring me now, there's no point debating with a left wing cretin who thinks they have an answer to everything based on the Utopian little bubble they like to live in. For the record I'm not especially left wing mate. Left of Hitler admittedly. Nor do I proclaim to have an answer for everything. Immigration's a complex issue. But don't let me bore you; hop along and fill thevoid between your ears with house music.
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Post by britsabroad on Jul 24, 2014 0:48:51 GMT
The only problem with immigration in the UK is there arent enough controls on it or the benefits (and I dont just mean handouts) that are available to immigrants.
The way it works in most countries is you are allowed in if you will be a contributor, and your access to certain benefits is restricted. The latter is an important point for intra EU migration. It stops you becoming destination number one for every emigrant on the planet.
In the UK almost anyone is allowed in, and you go straight to the top of the benefits list.
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