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Post by greyman on May 30, 2013 12:37:41 GMT
It can't be his legacy if he wasn't interested in it and wanted it shut. He's got enough to point at and claim he did a good job without taking credit for other people's work.
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Post by harryburrows on May 30, 2013 12:39:59 GMT
Tone has done himself a favour by getting out with his reputation in tact. Now the cost cutting etc will begin....Mr Coates will begin to recoup his losses now....its so plain to see.Weve been here before.... He called it sustainability and it made a lot of sense particularly his comment " so much money coming into the premier league and so much dept also
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Post by greyman on May 30, 2013 12:42:11 GMT
It's more complicated than that. It's mad to say he's left no legacy and he is obviously one of the three most successful managers in the club's history. But in terms of legacy, we need to be careful not to rewrite history. The club's infrastructure development has more to do with Peter Coates than Pulis who we know wanted to close the Academy down completely and recently expressed his lack of interest in it on more than one occasion. So you can take that off the list. I don't think he's doubled the fan base. He's just tapped into latent support by achieving promotion. It will go latent again if/when we get relegated. So scrub that. As for the solid nucleus of players, I think serious questions need to be asked about that. We have a squad that is aging and full of holes with little young talent coming through the ranks. That ultimately is what got him the sack. Given the resources at his disposal and the support he's had, it's astonishing that the squad is so creaky. Coates has invested cautiously and incrementally. Over revenue but relative to it. Pulis was obviously a massive part of that increase and in Coates feeling of confidence to invest it. Rewrite history if you wish. Coates employed the man to do a job in order to create what he has created. We are now global in name and sound in structure and all the major strides forward through the Pulis years. Coates has now put another man in place to achieve carry on the process and utilise some of that investment better, but it was all put in place in the context of the progress, results and security Pulis provided. I'd agree with you about 90 percent. But I actually think we stopped progressing two years ago and actually went backwards this season. I think I'd even say that the squad that finished the first season in the Premier league was better in certain areas than the one we have now. I also don't think we've got any degree of security given what's happened this season. I'm not arguing that he hasn't taken part in a transformation of the club, just that there are big holes in some aspects of his legacy.
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Post by generationex on May 30, 2013 12:42:13 GMT
I'm not just refering to the academy - which may well end up to being a white elephant- but the whole infastructure paid for by TV cash.
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Post by greyman on May 30, 2013 12:44:41 GMT
I'm not just refering to the academy - which may well end up to being a white elephant- but the whole infastructure paid for by TV cash. That's fair enough. But we shouldn't let a man who wanted to shut the Academy down be credited with its development.
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Post by ColonelMustard on May 30, 2013 12:50:40 GMT
Coates has invested cautiously and incrementally. Over revenue but relative to it. Pulis was obviously a massive part of that increase and in Coates feeling of confidence to invest it. Rewrite history if you wish. Coates employed the man to do a job in order to create what he has created. We are now global in name and sound in structure and all the major strides forward through the Pulis years. Coates has now put another man in place to achieve carry on the process and utilise some of that investment better, but it was all put in place in the context of the progress, results and security Pulis provided. I'd agree with you about 90 percent. But I actually think we stopped progressing two years ago and actually went backwards this season. I think I'd even say that the squad that finished the first season in the Premier league was better in certain areas than the one we have now. I also don't think we've got any degree of security given what's happened this season. I'm not arguing that he hasn't taken part in a transformation of the club, just that there are big holes in some aspects of his legacy. fair enough, I'd argue that to highlight the holes might be misunderstanding the partnership they had Maybe it is too difficult to talk of anything other than the Coates/ Pulis legacy as it is impossible to know how many decisions TP got right against the advice of Coates and vice versa- their partnership moved us forward. We move in the Coates/ Hughes era although it seems that every effort is being made to take some responsibilty away from both and share it around more heads.
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Post by stokies on May 30, 2013 12:55:27 GMT
Thanks Tony, you're a legend, best Stoke manager in my years, possibly ever.
Take a bow, Sir.
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Post by snapper23 on May 30, 2013 12:56:11 GMT
It's more complicated than that. It's mad to say he's left no legacy and he is obviously one of the three most successful managers in the club's history. But in terms of legacy, we need to be careful not to rewrite history. The club's infrastructure development has more to do with Peter Coates than Pulis who we know wanted to close the Academy down completely and recently expressed his lack of interest in it on more than one occasion. So you can take that off the list. I don't think he's doubled the fan base. He's just tapped into latent support by achieving promotion. It will go latent again if/when we get relegated. So scrub that. As for the solid nucleus of players, I think serious questions need to be asked about that. We have a squad that is aging and full of holes with little young talent coming through the ranks. That ultimately is what got him the sack. Given the resources at his disposal and the support he's had, it's astonishing that the squad is so creaky. Coates has invested cautiously and incrementally. Over revenue but relative to it. Pulis was obviously a massive part of that increase and in Coates feeling of confidence to invest it. Rewrite history if you wish. Coates employed the man to do a job in order to create what he has created. We are now global in name and sound in structure and all the major strides forward through the Pulis years. Coates has now put another man in place to achieve carry on the process and utilise some of that investment better, but it was all put in place in the context of the progress, results and security Pulis provided. Thank you. Could not have put it better Sent from my GT-I9300 using proboards
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Post by mcf on May 30, 2013 13:03:51 GMT
There is no credit to be taken on the academy for anyone as yet.
It's produced very, very, very, very little.
Must be a massive drain on money surely?
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Post by greyman on May 30, 2013 13:09:52 GMT
There is no credit to be taken on the academy for anyone as yet. It's produced very, very, very, very little. Must be a massive drain on money surely? There's something not right in the setup, especially if you compare it to a club like Southampton. It may be a case of garbage in garbage out, may be a lack of will to develop players, or both and a dozen other things, but we do know academies can produce players, just that ours doesn't.
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Post by snapper23 on May 30, 2013 13:12:30 GMT
There is no credit to be taken on the academy for anyone as yet. It's produced very, very, very, very little. Must be a massive drain on money surely? In terms of capital yes but these things take time to produce. Look at other sports like cricket. Ricky Ponting joined the Australian cricket academy at 15. He wasn't playing test cricket next week Sent from my GT-I9300 using proboards
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mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
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Post by mt on May 30, 2013 13:14:43 GMT
Judged and jailed by contemporary. Hero in the forthcoming historybooks. Prove them wrong as usual and good luck in the future whatever you`ll end up doing, Mr. Pulis!
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Post by Etain Tur-Mukan on May 30, 2013 13:20:59 GMT
Now our new manager has been confirmed (well...pretty much) would just like to say a big thank you to Tony Pulis for what he did at the club. While the past 2 seasons have unquestionably been absolutely dour and its clear he had reached his limitations as a manager, there can be little denying that on the whole hes done a magnificent job at Stoke. It was clear that the end was nigh in his more recent interviews and particularly (for me) in his final programme notes against Spurs which read out like a CV. However ultimately, what he said was true...he had taken us from the foot of the championship to the premier league and had kept us there for 5 years while taking us to the club's first FA Cup final and the last 32 of Europe - all fantastic achievements. The highest point for me would probably have to be the Villa home game and the last minute Mama header. That along with a number of notable encounters including the 5-0 thrashing of Bolton in the Cup Semi-Final have made for an amazing journey. I'm sure all of us can agree that TP has done a great job for Stoke and i'm sure i'm speaking on behalf of all Stoke supporters when I say that we wish him all the best in the future in whatever he chooses to do. Tone has laid the foundations...over to you Mark. Well said. Thanks Tony and a big welcome to Mark!
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Post by mcf on May 30, 2013 13:22:32 GMT
Some can produce players but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily cheaper than buying equivalents.
Stoke have far greater geographic pressures than Southampton (in the sense that they don't have so much competition)
I agree with you snapper....so why would Coates have a pop at Pulis about it?
I wouldn't expect us to produce anything from Coates specifc investment for at least a few years...but we have spent huge sums so far and they are pretty expensive on a year by year basis.
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Post by Batfink on May 30, 2013 13:30:44 GMT
If TP hadn't kept the club in the top flight there would have been no infrastructure investment. It was money he earned for the club so I think it is his legacy together with PC's. Our fan base has increased too - the real benefits will probably be seen in 5 - 10 years as a generation of kids destined for glory hunting stay with the club.
The legacy is immense.Exactly! As a teacher I used to have 3 or 4 stoke fans in my class each year, who were mocked by the glory hunters - I now have 15 to 25 proud Stokies each year... Pulis has played a massive part in this.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 13:35:59 GMT
Great work Tone. Time will look back proudly on your era.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 14:32:20 GMT
As the song goes '...you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone'
In TP, We certainly had a manager who succeeded in establishing us as a Premership outfit.
Current wisdom is that he took us as far as he could
The risk is that he was better than we thought and we go into decline now he has left.
I'm hoping Hughes is looking at our central defenders and feeling a bit like Wenger did when he showed up at Arsenal to find Adams, Bould, Keown etc. I'm sure he's looking at our training complex and thinking that's good and I'm sure he's glad to have players like Nzonzi, Adam, Wilson, Bego, ShawX, Huth, Butland. All in all, he and we have a lot to thank Tony Pulis for.
It's the end of the beginning and the beginning went well because of Tony Pulis.
Thanks Tony.
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Post by greyman on May 31, 2013 7:59:35 GMT
Some can produce players but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily cheaper than buying equivalents. Stoke have far greater geographic pressures than Southampton (in the sense that they don't have so much competition) That doesn't explain why we produce fewer players than Crewe, does it? For whatever reason we do not have a pipeline of even decent players never mind the likes of Walcott, Bale, Shaw and Oxlade-Chamberlain. And how do West Ham continue to produce players when they have even greater competition than us? I don't think this can all be laid at Pulis's door but the fact that our young player of the season is 24 - and actually could only be at least 24 - is not the sign of a club able to develop young players.
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Post by mcf on May 31, 2013 8:57:15 GMT
..but most of the players that Crwho now produce couldn't get near our first team.
The kind of players that we want will be at the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Man City etc
I honestly don't know enough about the London area but I see the big clubs in the North West pretty much hoover up the best players from all over the shop.
I remember MarkW saying that he was hopeful that this may be changing so hopefully we will start seeing players come through.
Not sure whether Hughes is kid focused or not but personally, I don't think that kind of pressure should be put on a manager - he should be looking at them in simple terms - are they good enough or not. If they are they are picked and if not then the scouting needs to be better or there has to be some kind of admission as to why we are missing out.
Important area for the club this and I think too many people ignore the reality of how difficult it is - piss easy to say though
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Post by RAF on May 31, 2013 9:06:50 GMT
Some can produce players but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily cheaper than buying equivalents. Stoke have far greater geographic pressures than Southampton (in the sense that they don't have so much competition) I agree with you snapper....so why would Coates have a pop at Pulis about it? I wouldn't expect us to produce anything from Coates specifc investment for at least a few years...but we have spent huge sums so far and they are pretty expensive on a year by year basis. Why would he have a pop at him about it? I'll fucking tell you why because it was tantamount to Pulis calling someones baby ugly and a drain on money. I'm not surprised Coatesy got the arse on with him as he has blatantly made it clear the academy is definitely in the future of the club. Of course it's a work in progress , and no one expects immediate results. H
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Post by mcf on May 31, 2013 9:11:57 GMT
at the moment it is ugly and a drain on money isn't it?
or do you think Hughes should fetch Adam Rooney back?
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Post by RAF on May 31, 2013 9:14:32 GMT
at the moment it is ugly and a drain on money isn't it? or do you think Hughes should fetch Adam Rooney back? I don't know what part of 'work in progress' you chose to ignore? H
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Post by mcf on May 31, 2013 9:20:59 GMT
I agree with that you fucking idiot...
...which tends to suggest that in the past that it hasn't been good enough ie a fucking ugly baby
I think people under estimate how good these players need to be
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Post by snapper23 on May 31, 2013 9:22:41 GMT
Some can produce players but it doesn't mean that it is necessarily cheaper than buying equivalents. Stoke have far greater geographic pressures than Southampton (in the sense that they don't have so much competition) I agree with you snapper....so why would Coates have a pop at Pulis about it? I wouldn't expect us to produce anything from Coates specifc investment for at least a few years...but we have spent huge sums so far and they are pretty expensive on a year by year basis. Why would he have a pop at him about it? I'll fucking tell you why because it was tantamount to Pulis calling someones baby ugly and a drain on money. I'm not surprised Coatesy got the arse on with him as he has blatantly made it clear the academy is definitely in the future of the club. Of course it's a work in progress , and no one expects immediate results. H Colurfully put but I think probably not far short of the mark in many respects. They clearly had very different views towards the end about sustainability.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 9:26:54 GMT
Tone has done himself a favour by getting out with his reputation in tact. Now the cost cutting etc will begin....Mr Coates will begin to recoup his losses now....its so plain to see.Weve been here before.... piss off back to the vale board will you, your boring me
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Post by RAF on May 31, 2013 9:28:18 GMT
I agree with that you fucking idiot... ...which tends to suggest that in the past that it hasn't been good enough ie a fucking ugly baby I think people under estimate how good these players need to be Look thick fucker, if your best mate has a baby and it is ugly and they are spending a lot of money on it because to them it's important you don't say to them ' Fuck me that baby is ugly pal and you don't need to be buying pampers when Aldi's own will do, stop wasting your time and money' No you at least keep your fucking trap shut especially if your mate has been paying you a million quid a year for doing an average job. H
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 9:29:13 GMT
I'm not just refering to the academy - which may well end up to being a white elephant- but the whole infastructure paid for by TV cash. That's fair enough. But we shouldn't let a man who wanted to shut the Academy down be credited with its development. and where did he say he wanted to shut the acamedy down? just another phw rumour. there is a very simple reason why he didnt play any youngsters-they were not good enough simples name one lad who has left and gone onto better things?
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Post by davejohnno1 on May 31, 2013 9:30:31 GMT
I'm with MCF on this one. We haven't produced youngsters good enough for Tony Pulis to use and I suspect that will be the case for Mark Hughes too for a while to come.
However, TP didn't buy into the academy, showed no interest in it, didn't even know the kids that were representing our club and didn't even watch them play. Hopefully, in time, that will chance.
A manager that takes an active interest in the academy, buys into it, coaches it from time to time may actually help us to attract the very best kids to our club and then we might produce players good enough to play at the level we are at.
Anyway, back to the thread title. I will give TP a massive shout out!
THANK FUCK YOU'VE GONE YOU NEGATIVE BASTARD! ;-)
EDIT - Aldi's own nappies are miles better than Pampers mate. You should try them!
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Post by stokiejoe on May 31, 2013 9:32:50 GMT
At what stage do we put the past and TP behind us and move on together!
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Post by RAF on May 31, 2013 9:35:39 GMT
I'm with MCF on this one. We haven't produced youngsters good enough for Tony Pulis to use and I suspect that will be the case for Mark Hughes too for a while to come. However, TP didn't buy into the academy, showed no interest in it, didn't even know the kids that were representing our club and didn't even watch them play. Hopefully, in time, that will chance. A manager that takes an active interest in the academy, buys into it, coaches it from time to time may actually help us to attract the very best kids to our club and then we might produce players good enough to play at the level we are at. Anyway, back to the thread title. I will give TP a massive shout out! THANK FUCK YOU'VE GONE YOU NEGATIVE BASTARD! ;-) EDIT - Aldi's own nappies are miles better than Pampers mate. You should try them! I don't think anyone would argue with that Dave. You have hit the nail on the head and it was actually my point about TP's attitude towards the academy and probably a big reason for his demise. H
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