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Post by thesandbankskid on May 1, 2013 7:02:09 GMT
Why would Pulis want an Academy? Pulis' idea of Development is to call them a kiddie until 24 (Wilko & Dicko in the championship) he has absolutely no intention of developing youth.
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Post by apb1 on May 1, 2013 7:11:00 GMT
Weird isn't it? We had no academy at all I guess yet got Smith, Bloor, Dodd, Crooks, Chapman, Bracewell, Bould, Heath... The failure to adjust to other teams' development of proper youth structures was presumably what put paid to this conveyor belt as local kids went elsewhere. In time it will be great if we produce our own, even if they are as likely to be from Senegal as Stoke.
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Post by snapper23 on May 1, 2013 12:48:23 GMT
Cant blame Pulis at all really. How many players who have come through our academy are playing in the Premiership now? 2? Shotton and Wilko, that's it. Its not Pulis' fault that the academy isn't producing players who are good enough for our standard is it. Maybe not but that does not excuse him behaving like a three year old and basically saying he doesn't give a damp about it and whingeing it's diminishing his transfer kitty. Sent from my GT-I9300 using proboards
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Post by stokiejoe on May 1, 2013 12:58:44 GMT
It's only really got going properly since accreditation, early days yet. In fairness to TP he has to deal with the short term needs, so sees it as a reduction of what is available to him.
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Post by snapper23 on May 1, 2013 13:09:49 GMT
It's a question of balance. Something TP seems to struggle with nowadays......
Sent from my GT-I9300 using proboardsproboardsproboardsba
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Post by thestatusquo on May 1, 2013 13:54:00 GMT
It's only really got going properly since accreditation, early days yet. In fairness to TP he has to deal with the short term needs, so sees it as a reduction of what is available to him. Im not sure what you mean by short term Joe ?? Considering how long TP has been here he's never been remotely interested in it and would have closed it given the chance.
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Post by slother on May 1, 2013 16:21:44 GMT
Try as they might, I really don't think you can pick a talent at kiddie level. Look at Frank Lampard as someone who only blossomed into the player he is now in his mid-twenties. Yes the big clubs will have a lot of talented youngsters, but they'll also get a huge amount of "wastage" on that number, churning out good (but not great) players for the lower leagues. Clubs like ours might have a smaller success rate, but our hits will be no less great.
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Post by OnionBag on May 1, 2013 16:58:08 GMT
The issue I have with the academy and Pulis is I'm struggling to think of a player Pulis has improved technically since he's been here.
Yes, Shrawcross is a better player but that's largely as a result of strengthening and organisational, he's arguably technically worse than when he came here. Shottons improved this year but is similar to Ryan. Halls for a while maybe (but he was brought up at Arsenal), can't think if any more. The young players we've had Soares (looked promising in spells), Arismendi (same), Davies etc. just haven't seemed to improve at all.
Generally Pulis will take players who have lost their way and put that self belief into them to get back to where they were. However it's not the track record of someone you want to bring young players either from the academy or other clubs.
If we are really going to use the academy and buy younger players then if Pulis stays then he's got to be forced to at least change his coaching team and training methods (to a certain extent)
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Post by jstoke7 on May 1, 2013 17:00:07 GMT
The issue I have with the academy and Pulis is I'm struggling to think of a player Pulis has improved technically since he's been here. Yes, Shrawcross is a better player but that's largely as a result of strengthening and organisational, he's arguably technically worse than when he came here. Shottons improved this year but is similar to Ryan. Halls for a while maybe (but he was brought up at Arsenal), can't think if any more. The young players we've had Soares (looked promising in spells), Arismendi (same), Davies etc. just haven't seemed to improve at all. Generally Pulis will take players who have lost their way and put that self belief into them to get back to where they were. However it's not the track record of someone you want to bring young players either from the academy or other clubs. If we are really going to use the academy and buy younger players then if Pulis stays then he's got to be forced to at least change his coaching team and training methods (to a certain extent) Great post. Exactly my feelings.
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Post by padders01 on May 1, 2013 21:26:38 GMT
Pulis won't have any impact on the Academy at the moment. There hasn't been any decent kids come through it YET! However our Under 18's side is looking quite useful.
The only way we will know if any if the kids are good enough is if Pulis is try's them or they leave Stoke and then make a good career. We haven't had a great player do that yet have we??
BUT, the Academy has really only been given the money and facilities in the last 2/3 years. We will have missed the crop then.
As a manager of a Under 8's side. If the players are good enough they will soon get spotted. I have one who is currently at Stoke and Vale who are both taking a close look at him.
I have two other players who are interesting Crewe as we speak.
I know the Dad is very impressed with the Stoke set up.
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Post by geoff321 on May 1, 2013 21:34:59 GMT
It's a fact that over the years Stoke have produced some of the best players in the country. Freddie Steele, Neil Franklin, Stanley Matthews were among the best. Steele made 251 appearances and scored 159 goals, what a goalscorer he was.
In the 1970's there were players like Smith/Bloor/Conroy/Marsh/Skeels/Pejic etc, etc. In the last twenty years the number of local lads turning into outstanding players is negligible.
Why is that?
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 1, 2013 21:38:21 GMT
It's a fact that over the years Stoke have produced some of the best players in the country. Freddie Steele, Neil Franklin, Stanley Matthews were among the best. Steele made 251 appearances and scored 159 goals, what a goalscorer he was. In the 1970's there were players like Smith/Bloor/Conroy/Marsh/Skeels/Pejic etc, etc. In the last twenty years the number of local lads turning into outstanding players is negligible. Why is that? Neglect. Thankfully that appears to be changing.
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Post by stokiejoe on May 1, 2013 21:40:29 GMT
It's only really got going properly since accreditation, early days yet. In fairness to TP he has to deal with the short term needs, so sees it as a reduction of what is available to him. Im not sure what you mean by short term Joe ?? Considering how long TP has been here he's never been remotely interested in it and would have closed it given the chance. He deals with the first team squad on a season by season basis on a here and now basis and as such like most managers has no regard for long term future players. It is sad and wasteful and even back in the 60's local lads would go to Crewe or even the Vale as Stoke didn't do a lot for them. I think we miss out big time by not looking to bring youth through; I understand the avarage age of our team has been 28.5 yrs. On this basis a 16 year old would have to wait 12 years before TP gave him a game. Look how many ex-Crewe lads went on to the big time and you will see the opportunities we have wasted.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 21:41:02 GMT
It's a fact that over the years Stoke have produced some of the best players in the country. Freddie Steele, Neil Franklin, Stanley Matthews were among the best. Steele made 251 appearances and scored 159 goals, what a goalscorer he was. In the 1970's there were players like Smith/Bloor/Conroy/Marsh/Skeels/Pejic etc, etc. In the last twenty years the number of local lads turning into outstanding players is negligible. Why is that? You are forgetting Chapman, both Heaths Bracewell and all. The reason has been quite simply lack of investment and interest.These days it is a lack of the latter in some important quaters.
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Post by geoff321 on May 1, 2013 21:47:59 GMT
bayern,
Possibly. Coaching can improve players skills but in my view great players are born not produced. Manchester United are a club who produced great young players in the 50's and 90's, and virtually nothing in between.
Where are all the great Scottish players today?
The Academy may produce more technically gifted players but the lack of outstanding young players suggests to me that they only come along once in two or three decades.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 22:12:46 GMT
bayern, Possibly. Coaching can improve players skills but in my view great players are born not produced. Manchester United are a club who produced great young players in the 50's and 90's, and virtually nothing in between. Where are all the great Scottish players today? The Academy may produce more technically gifted players but the lack of outstanding young players suggests to me that they only come along once in two or three decades. Mqanchester Unoited produced nothing in between? Are you sure? Can you name a Manchester United side or squad that hasn't had a healthy sprinkling of home grown producty involved? I don't think the measure of success is to produce a "golden generation" in one go. If that is your own expectation I think you are going to have a long wait. One or two every season or so is the normal and as far as Stoke and similar are concerned the absolute necessity in the long term.
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Post by geoff321 on May 1, 2013 22:21:53 GMT
Mark,
Firstly in my original post I was specifically referring in Stoke's case to local lads. In that sense I was asking where are the outstanding players from Stoke on Trent in the last twenty years. If you are saying an Academy has a good chance of producing a couple of local players every year or so who could succeed in the Premier League then that would be a big plus. I'm not so sure though.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 1, 2013 22:26:52 GMT
I disagree. You do get lucky with some great generations, that's clear but it is also clear (to me at least) that coaching clearly helps and that having the right coaches and talent scouts can only help. If You've got no one searching for the talent then it's never going to develop through Your academy, it's that simple imo. You need good coaching, good scouts, a manager willing to give the young uns a chance as a base for development. Barring a few nay sayers on here, I've never seen anyone who's worth listening to disagree. Eating fried mars bars I'd imagine.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 22:28:45 GMT
Mark, Firstly in my original post I was specifically referring in Stoke's case to local lads. In that sense I was asking where are the outstanding players from Stoke on Trent in the last twenty years. If you are saying an Academy has a good chance of producing a couple of local players every year or so who could succeed in the Premier League then that would be a big plus. I'm not so sure though. Financialy it isn't an option in my opinion or it seems in Peter Coates'. Our squad has to have a much more balanced content of home grown and imported young players with resale value. The Pulis template of proven Premier League players who require no coaching other than drills in shape is an unsustainable model.
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Post by philm87 on May 1, 2013 22:41:07 GMT
I wonder what Coates thinks about Pulis on this?
They are great mates and all, obviously have a very good working relationship too.
This is one area where they are clearly quite far apart. I don't think we can blame Pulis too much for not bringing through young players up until now because we simply haven't produced any. But there is an undeniable tension between Pulis' philosophy and methods and Coates' long-term vision that ultimately puts them on collision course.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 22:50:25 GMT
I wonder what Coates thinks about Pulis on this? They are great mates and all, obviously have a very good working relationship too. This is one area where they are clearly quite far apart. I don't think we can blame Pulis too much for not bringing through young players up until now because we simply haven't produced any. But there is an undeniable tension between Pulis' philosophy and methods and Coates' long-term vision that ultimately puts them on collision course. I beg to differ on your absolution of Pulis in this matter. If you aren't going to blame too much the football manager who has been here for a decade during which time he has tried to close it and starve it whilst using it as an employment centre for his wank coach mates whilst not even looking at the system and its players then I want to be a manager in your world, Phil. Its certainly going to make an interesting talking point between manager and chairman in the summer as you say. I think it a pointless one because whatever Tone may say to save his ass, actions and actions over a lifetime of management speak louder than words. A few weasel words of support that we have heard before would soon turn into the usual moans and groans if some player didnt turn up in a transfer window. It would soon be back to the front of the house bollocks in my opinion.
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Post by philm87 on May 1, 2013 22:58:32 GMT
I wonder what Coates thinks about Pulis on this? They are great mates and all, obviously have a very good working relationship too. This is one area where they are clearly quite far apart. I don't think we can blame Pulis too much for not bringing through young players up until now because we simply haven't produced any. But there is an undeniable tension between Pulis' philosophy and methods and Coates' long-term vision that ultimately puts them on collision course. I beg to differ on your absolution of Pulis in this matter. If you aren't going to blame too much the football manager who has been here for a decade during which time he has tried to close it and starve it whilst using it as an employment centre for his wank coach mates whilst not even looking at the system and its players then I want to be a manager in your world, Phil. Its certainly going to make an interesting talking point between manager and chairman in the summer as you say. I think it a pointless one because whatever Tone may say to save his ass, actions and actions over a lifetime of management speak louder than words. A few weasel words of support that we have heard before would soon turn into the usual moans and groans if some player didnt turn up in a transfer window. It would soon be back to the front of the house bollocks in my opinion. Well you will have to show me the evidence for this deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the club's youth system? Assuming you can do that, I will be happen to change my mind. I just don't think our academy has produced anything decent in the time since I have been watching, so while I suspect Pulis would have overlooked talented young players, so far he hasn't had the chance to prove it one way or the other.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 23:07:15 GMT
I beg to differ on your absolution of Pulis in this matter. If you aren't going to blame too much the football manager who has been here for a decade during which time he has tried to close it and starve it whilst using it as an employment centre for his wank coach mates whilst not even looking at the system and its players then I want to be a manager in your world, Phil. Its certainly going to make an interesting talking point between manager and chairman in the summer as you say. I think it a pointless one because whatever Tone may say to save his ass, actions and actions over a lifetime of management speak louder than words. A few weasel words of support that we have heard before would soon turn into the usual moans and groans if some player didnt turn up in a transfer window. It would soon be back to the front of the house bollocks in my opinion. Well you will have to show me the evidence for this deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the club's youth system? Assuming you can do that, I will be happen to change my mind. I just don't think our academy has produced anything decent in the time since I have been watching, so while I suspect Pulis would have overlooked talented young players, so far he hasn't had the chance to prove it one way or the other. I would if I had suggested a deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the academy. It hasn't been that sophisticated by half. Substitute that with incompetence, lack of understanding, lack of ability and descriptives along those lines and you are closer to what I am suggesting.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 1, 2013 23:09:00 GMT
It wasn't systematic, he wanted it shut so he could have the funds. From memory Coates and Rawlins stepped in and stumped the cash up to keep it running.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 23:11:15 GMT
I think that this myth that it is going to take 4 or 5 years to produce our own players needs quashing straight away. A good young player with the right coaching could burst onto the scene in 4 or 5 months if you have the right staff to capitalise on the situation. We clearly haven't got the expertise or foresight top make this happen , from the scouting network through to the coaching staff , and then ultimately the first team coach. We seem to be only interested in farming out our best young stars to lower league clubs to 'gain experience' , rather than developing them with better more advanced coaching. I'm no expert in the coaching set up at Stoke , or those young players we have at the academy , but what I can say with 100% confidence is that so far we have produced absolutely bugger all first team material and that trend seems to be continuing indefinitely.
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Post by digger on May 1, 2013 23:17:14 GMT
It's a fact that over the years Stoke have produced some of the best players in the country. Freddie Steele, Neil Franklin, Stanley Matthews were among the best. Steele made 251 appearances and scored 159 goals, what a goalscorer he was. In the 1970's there were players like Smith/Bloor/Conroy/Marsh/Skeels/Pejic etc, etc. In the last twenty years the number of local lads turning into outstanding players is negligible. Why is that? X BOX
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 23:21:58 GMT
It's a fact that over the years Stoke have produced some of the best players in the country. Freddie Steele, Neil Franklin, Stanley Matthews were among the best. Steele made 251 appearances and scored 159 goals, what a goalscorer he was. In the 1970's there were players like Smith/Bloor/Conroy/Marsh/Skeels/Pejic etc, etc. In the last twenty years the number of local lads turning into outstanding players is negligible. Why is that? X BOX It's down to lack of interest and encouragement from the Potteries parents with regards to getting their kids involved in football from a young age and sticking by them.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 23:26:21 GMT
It's down to lack of interest and encouragement from the Potteries parents with regards to getting their kids involved in football from a young age and sticking by them. Thats a problem unique to the Potteries? There is a lack of decent sports facilities in the district. Compared to say Nottingham it is diabolical but that isn't down to parental interest or commitment I can assure you.
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Post by philm87 on May 1, 2013 23:28:32 GMT
Well you will have to show me the evidence for this deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the club's youth system? Assuming you can do that, I will be happen to change my mind. I just don't think our academy has produced anything decent in the time since I have been watching, so while I suspect Pulis would have overlooked talented young players, so far he hasn't had the chance to prove it one way or the other. I would if I had suggested a deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the academy. It hasn't been that sophisticated by half. Substitute that with incompetence, lack of understanding, lack of ability and descriptives along those lines and you are closer to what I am suggesting. The phrase 'has has tried to close it and starve it' is slightly different from saying he is incompetent.
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Post by MarkWolstanton on May 1, 2013 23:33:32 GMT
I would if I had suggested a deliberate and systematic plan to sabotage the academy. It hasn't been that sophisticated by half. Substitute that with incompetence, lack of understanding, lack of ability and descriptives along those lines and you are closer to what I am suggesting. The phrase 'has has tried to close it and starve it' is slightly different from saying he is incompetent. Fits well with "lack of understanding" though if you think it through.
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