I hope Coates hasn't chosen loyalty over relegation

[ted1965]

It seems Tony Pulis is the man who will either save us or sink us as the board have closed ranks around him and believe we are only in the middle of a blip, My God if this is a blip what on earth would they consider a crisis. I am sure its just a united front till the end of the season but on the evidence since the turn of the year this blip will see us back in the Championship.

I think the moment for change has passed till May now as it should have happened after Sunday. For the owners to simply hide their eyes to the situation and say we can escape is tantamount to finding a suicide note from a friend and saying, he's just being a little dramatic ignore it and he will pull himself together. Of course we can escape but I firmly believe you should give yourself every opportunity for help rather than just hope it all comes good.

Next season is momentous in terms of the new television deal and the money that it will generate for those in the Premier League and we should not have been in this position considering we had 29 points heading into 2013. Peter Coates and his family have built up a successful financial empire and I am sure it wasn't luck. If a manager had been under performing in their corporate structure I am damn sure he would have been moved on and someone better employed to prevent damage to the business, yet it seems at Stoke sound business logic no longer applies.

I know any change in management is a risk but sadly it was a risk worth taking because Tony Pulis has lost the plot, the players no longer seem to buy into his ethos of how he wants us to play. If the players no longer believe then its time for change because once you lose the players you have lost the battle. If solders don't trust or believe their officers in battle then humiliating failure is inevitable.

Peter Coates is a loyal man he appointed Pulis and for 5 years we reaped the rewards of that appointment it has always been a roller coaster ride under Tone but there were more good days than bad but that has changed and now the good days stand out because they are collectors items. We have a team that doesn't know what its supposed to be, no pace, little or no flair and players in the side more for their perspiration than inspiration.

The manager can't say he hasn't been backed in the transfer market as he has been backed to the hilt, yet we still lack a balanced squad. That was fine for most while we were relatively successful and winning games but when the wheels come off the lack of balance and quality shines like a lighthouse on a foggy night.

For any manager to have been backed and not managed to find a full back capable ot playing in the side is dumbfounding. Then for the same manager to complain that we lack quality in certain positions makes your blood boil, you have had numerous windows to change this and you haven't and when you have signed players who could you have no idea how to structure play to allow them to do so. That for me will be a damming indictment on the last 2 seasons.

Before some get all excited and accuse me of just wanting Tony Pulis axed in some toy from the pram rant not true. I want what is best for Stoke City and like everyone else will be squarely behind the players, hoping, praying and begging for a few more points just to save us from relegation but when the dust settles on this season I want change. Tony Pulis has done an incredible job and his legacy should have been one of thankful appreciation but as this debacle drags on will more likely be what the hell went wrong and what have you done to our club.

Peter Coates should have changed the direction of this season after the Villa debacle yet he hesitated I just hope he hesitates does not cost this club its place in the Premier League and condemn us once more to a period of painful reflecting on what might have been had he taken the chance on some new ideas reviving a group of players who are simply going through the motions as we slide towards the trap door of despair. As I said the other day would he be Nero or Brutus, he chose Nero now lets hope he hasn't made a huge mistake I for one hope he chose the right option.

[jonnybravo]

Choosing the wrong manager in his last reign cost him but last time he kept sacking them when maybe he didn't have too this time he does but won't sack pulis

[Titan Uranus]

Yep... he's obviously made his mind up that he's sticking with Tone for the rest of the season.

It's also a safe bet that whatever the circumstances, TP will be in charge next season as well.

I think Xmas will be the "stick or twist" time, again regardless of what division we are in.

Very depressing.

[thesandbankskid]

Blind Faith I'd say on the stat that TP has never been relegated more so than Loyalty.

[Deleted]

Very depressing indeed, I think there is more of a chance of him leaving if we stay up than if we go down to be honest. So here is hoping to some sort of miracle that we drag 5 points from somewhere.

[elystokie]

Apr 17, 2013 8:19:50 GMT Titan Uranus said:

Yep... he's obviously made his mind up that he's sticking with Tone for the rest of the season.

It's also a safe bet that whatever the circumstances, TP will be in charge next season as well.

I think Xmas will be the "stick or twist" time, again regardless of what division we are in.

Very depressing.

Sadly this is what I've been thinking, very depressing.

Furthermore we could be stuck with the twat even longer if we're mid table in the championship, with more promises, excuses and fucking awful football.

[keasie1863]

If bet365, was under performing, and losing value and custom.would mr Coates and his family, keep issuing crass statements saying"the last 18 months have been a blip".I think not, the top manager would be down the road quicker than you could say"steak and chips".
SO I ASK YOU MR COATES.WHAT IS THE FRIKIN DIFFERENCE.OPEN YOUR EYES.NOT LOOK INTO THE EYES.

[okeydokeystokie2]

I want the best for Stoke City too, Ted, but I think Mr Coates has got it right here.

In terms of results and accumulating points, the last 3 months has been a "blip" when viewed in the context of the last 7 years. I can understand why the club say this at this time, and I believe one performance and win would do so much to boost confidence that we could finish the season strongly - if we can get that elusive next victory. I absolutely accept that this masks some of the problems that need to be addressed in the summer too.

The Owner/Chairman and Manager are the 2 most important positions in any football club. When it has worked so well, I can also understand their reluctance to break it up. There will always be a risk in terms of the dynamic, the working relationship and the net benefit of change.

I am absolutely confident that TP can get enough of this group to get enough points to stay in the division. I actually think our final points total and position could be better than we imagine at the moment.

Where so many of you will differ, is that I think Tone deserves the opportunity to re-shape the squad in the summer. There will be a lot of players leaving as well as new players in, and we will have a different looking squad at the end of August. He's built an effective team before, and I see no reason why he can't do it again.

I completely agree with Titan that the time for change would be Christmas if the new look squad isn't delivering. Until then, keep the faith, remember the terrific achievements and stay positive. We owe it to Tony and Peter to trust them and give them the chance to get us back on track.

[Titan Uranus]

Apr 17, 2013 9:07:33 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

I want the best for Stoke City too, Ted, but I think Mr Coates has got it right here.

In terms of results and accumulating points, the last 3 months has been a "blip" when viewed in the context of the last 7 years. I can understand why the club say this at this time, and I believe one performance and win would do so much to boost confidence that we could finish the season strongly - if we can get that elusive next victory. I absolutely accept that this masks some of the problems that need to be addressed in the summer too.

The Owner/Chairman and Manager are the 2 most important positions in any football club. When it has worked so well, I can also understand their reluctance to break it up. There will always be a risk in terms of the dynamic, the working relationship and the net benefit of change.

I am absolutely confident that TP can get enough of this group to get enough points to stay in the division. I actually think our final points total and position could be better than we imagine at the moment.

Where so many of you will differ, is that I think Tone deserves the opportunity to re-shape the squad in the summer. There will be a lot of players leaving as well as new players in, and we will have a different looking squad at the end of August. He's built an effective team before, and I see no reason why he can't do it again.

I completely agree with Titan that the time for change would be Christmas if the new look squad isn't delivering. Until then, keep the faith, remember the terrific achievements and stay positive. We owe it to Tony and Peter to trust them and give them the chance to get us back on track.

Think you've got the wrong end of the stick with my post okey...

I think that PC will persevere with TP until Xmas, regardless of division.

My own view is that he should have been sacked 12 months ago at least.

Having said that my opinion is not be counted because I'm a fully fledged PHW (one of the originals)

Just out of interest .. how many times are you going to give him chance to regroup and "rebuild the squad" ?

[eddyclamp]

Pulis will never be sacked,he will however IMO resign either way at the end of the season.

[okeydokeystokie2]

I realise that you don't want him to stay, Titan, but I think you have read it right.

If there is going to be a "sacking", I think it would be at Christmas if things were no better. I don't know whether Tony will have had enough in the summer - they might have come to some kind of behind closed doors arrangement. I've always said that all managers are ultimately judged on results: I hope TP can turn this bad run around and we finish the season a bit stronger.

I still think TP can build a decent team because we have the nucleus of a good squad. Bego/Soro/Butland, Shawcross, Huth, Wilson, N'Zonzi, Charlie, Crouch/KJ/CJ are all OK. We will have to assess Matty and bring new wide players in, but with the new money and the possibility of the Begovic sale it is a great time to strengthen our weaker areas.

[FullerMagic]

Apr 17, 2013 9:31:47 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

I realise that you don't want him to stay, Titan, but I think you have read it right.

If there is going to be a "sacking", I think it would be at Christmas if things were no better. I don't know whether Tony will have had enough in the summer - they might have come to some kind of behind closed doors arrangement. I've always said that all managers are ultimately judged on results: I hope TP can turn this bad run around and we finish the season a bit stronger.

I still think TP can build a decent team because we have the nucleus of a good squad. Bego/Soro/Butland, Shawcross, Huth, Wilson, N'Zonzi, Charlie, Crouch/KJ/CJ are all OK. We will have to assess Matty and bring new wide players in, but with the new money and the possibility of the Begovic sale it is a great time to strengthen our weaker areas.

The only teams with comparable records since Christmas 2011 are QPR, Villa and Sunderland, Okey.

And they've all seen a managerial change.

Less than a point-per-game in that time, and much less than a goal a game - with a solitary away win.

Do you think he would have been sacked by now, by other (most?) chairmen who he didn't have this special relationship with?

[okeydokeystokie2]

The statistics are grim reading, but have obviously been massively affected by the run since the New Year. Without playing particularly well, we went 10 games unbeaten up to Christmas and up to 8th after destroying Liverpool. It's been a horrible mess since.

2 observations: QPR have made 2 managerial changes in that time and look in a worse mess. Hughes for Colin and Harry for Hughes both looked like a positive step, but it hasn't worked. Same with Villa - they've gone through McLeish and Lambert and still may be relegated.

The juries still out on the volatile Di Canio. O'Neil had the same kind of start, and they've also got rid of Bruce in that time.

So therein lies the problem. I think Pulis might have been sacked by another Chairman. Only time will tell whether that would be right or wrong. If he gets the ins and outs right this summer, I'm hoping we could improve again. Peter Coates has had to make that decision. It's a huge one, and I hope like hell he's got it right.

[Deleted]

I've said it before, he's been afforded the kind of patience that most Managers wouldn't have seen from probably every other team in the league.

He's been backed to the hilt, financially, and been given more than enough time to put things right.

[FullerMagic]

Hope you're right, Okey.

I can't really get my head around your faith in him given what we've seen over the last season and a half - but I do admire it and wish I had some left.

Oh for a 27 or 28-year old Ricardo, eh?

[okeydokeystokie2]

WD, he has been backed superbly but I've argued before there have been mitigating circumstances. I thought Palacios was going to be the springboard to a better style of play. A proper box to box beast with an eye for a pass. Who could have predicted what would happen with Wilson?

To a degree, I thought the same about Kightly. A bargain who would cover both wing positions and who would put pressure on JP to behave himself and find his best form. Adam's off field problems can't have helped, and if there was one person in our squad you wouldn't want to get a bad injury it would be your left back. They just can't get Matty fit and sadly JP has become a problem that just can't be solved.

When you look at it that way, pretty much everything that could have gone wrong has.

[okeydokeystokie2]

I've said before FM, Ric is so much a part of the current problem. He is absolutely impossible to replace.

When you think of his ability to win set pieces, his work as the "out ball", holding things up while we lumbered forward, his assists and the goals he scored - not to mention the sheer joy of watching him play. All that has gone from the team at a stroke. Was it you who referred to him as a one man wrecking crew?

But in fairness, it was Tony who plucked him from Southampton's bench for £500,000.

[FullerMagic]

Yeah - his finest hour in the transfer market definitely, Okey. A marriage made in heaven!

It was probably a fool's errand trying to replace Ric, like for like, on our budget.

But we didn't even seem to try

[Deleted]

Apr 17, 2013 10:00:19 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

WD, he has been backed superbly but I've argued before there have been mitigating circumstances. I thought Palacios was going to be the springboard to a better style of play. A proper box to box beast with an eye for a pass. Who could have predicted what would happen with Wilson?

To a degree, I thought the same about Kightly. A bargain who would cover both wing positions and who would put pressure on JP to behave himself and find his best form. Adam's off field problems can't have helped, and if there was one person in our squad you wouldn't want to get a bad injury it would be your left back. They just can't get Matty fit and sadly JP has become a problem that just can't be solved.

When you look at it that way, pretty much everything that could have gone wrong has.

The problem is Okey, he hasn't prepared for any of these problems. They haven't just crept up on us, most of our problems have been longstanding.

Ethers has struggles for form and fitness since the FA Cup Final yet we have only just brought in a new left winger, and it appears he won't be featuring any time soon.

He's brought Kightly in for a few million and now he's being overlooked in favour of a full back.

I don't buy the Adam off field problems either. Watch him when he is on the pitch. He's hundry for it. He's always asking for the ball, he is always trying to put his stamp on the game. Whether you think he's good enough is another issue, but I don't buy the off-field issues as a legitmate argument. I think it's just another case of Pulis signing a player that doesn't fit into his system.

The sentiment of your post is that Pulis has bene unlucky because everything has gone against him but his failings in the transfer market have caused most of our problems.

He must have signed a dozen new players in the last 2 years and only N'Zonzi has improved us, and even he is stuttering now.

We need wingers, we need a left back, we need a change up front - our problems have been there for a good while and Tony Pulis has had ample time to rectify all of these problems. How much more time and money would you give him?

[okeydokeystokie2]

I'd back him again in the summer, but I think Titan is right that if he hasn't delivered a new more effective team that creates more chances and scores more goals, Christmas would have to be the time for change.

You would have to concede that in theory Palacios and Kightly looked to be great signings that haven't delivered. Still time for Charlie to make a big contribution I hope.

Edit - just said on another thread that 8 of the team that hammered Bolton 2 years ago today could start on Saturday. That doesn't include Bego, Adam, N'Zonzi, Kightly or Crouch. It's hard to understand why we're struggling, but shows how important the mentality and confidence is.

[Deleted]

Apr 17, 2013 10:22:26 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

I'd back him again in the summer, but I think Titan is right that if he hasn't delivered a new more effective team that creates more chances and scores more goals, Christmas would have to be the time for change.

You would have to concede that in theory Palacios and Kightly looked to be great signings that haven't delivered. Still time for Charlie to make a big contribution I hope.

Edit - just said on another thread that 8 of the team that hammered Bolton 2 years ago today could start on Saturday. That doesn't include Bego, Adam, N'Zonzi, Kightly or Crouch. It's hard to understand why we're struggling, but shows how important the mentality and confidence is.

I admire your patience and loyalty mate but I have to strongly disagree.

I don’t see the point in giving him until Xmas. We have been the lowest scorers for 2 years now. This isn’t a blip.

The Summer is a great time to make the change as it gives a new manager the time (and the money, if we manage to stay up) to put his stamp on things, and to make any necessary changes.

By giving Pulis until Xmas we’d just continue in our decline and that would make it even more difficult for a new Manager to come in and put it right.

He’s had more than enough time and money. Any more would be a massive mistake in my opinion.

[metalhead]

Of course this is a confidence thing. Newcastle went down a few years ago with a team far superior to those who went down with them. Fact is, confidence is hugely important. We know we have the players to stay up, but their confidence is shot. Who is to blame? Pulis for his poor tactical decisions? Results? Us for not backing them enough?

[Deleted]

I think it's too late to change now I'm afraid Coates has made a stand as he always has done when managers at Stoke are under pressure. History dictates that Coates does not crumble under fan pressure he does things in his own time, Pulis is here for the last few games and IF we stay up I think he will be given more time and money during the closed season and it depending on how it goes in the first few weeks, transfers in and out will determine if he starts the next season as our manager. So for the sake on the CLUB not the manager or anyone else we need to raise the roof come what may or we are doomed.

[sheikhmomo]

I think there is a chance he will walk at the end of the season regardless of what happens, which could take the 'Coates factor' out of it. Whilst his dismissal of what other people think of him is legendary, I think that what happened in January has hurt him and the recent criticism has broke even his leathery thick skin. He has found he had less in the bank with supporters than he thought he had and that must burn a bit.

If I was a betting man however, which I am, I would still back him being here in 12 months time with the same painful debates going on and on.

[Block 22]

Apr 17, 2013 10:36:03 GMT sheikhmomo said:

I think there is a chance he will walk at the end of the season regardless of what happens, which could take the 'Coates factor' out of it. Whilst his dismissal of what other people think of him is legendary, I think that what happened in January has hurt him and the recent criticism has broke even his leathery thick skin. He has found he had less in the bank with supporters than he thought he had and that must burn a bit.

If I was a betting man however, which I am, I would still back him being here in 12 months time with the same painful debates going on and on.

[foster]

Apr 17, 2013 10:00:19 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

WD, he has been backed superbly but I've argued before there have been mitigating circumstances. I thought Palacios was going to be the springboard to a better style of play. A proper box to box beast with an eye for a pass. Who could have predicted what would happen with Wilson?

To a degree, I thought the same about Kightly. A bargain who would cover both wing positions and who would put pressure on JP to behave himself and find his best form. Adam's off field problems can't have helped, and if there was one person in our squad you wouldn't want to get a bad injury it would be your left back. They just can't get Matty fit and sadly JP has become a problem that just can't be solved.

When you look at it that way, pretty much everything that could have gone wrong has.

The fact that he was sitting in the reserves at Spurs, injured and about 10 stone overweight might have given it away a bit.

8m down the shitter.

[okeydokeystokie2]

WD, you could well be right and your argument is sound. For me it is partly about loyalty to a bloke who has helped bring back the good times, partly because of his track record in delivering before and partly because of the lack of a credible alternative. Put those 3 things together, and you can see where PC's position on this might be. I hope he's right and I hope they can turn it around. We've got some good players, so with 2 or 3 changes, surely we can get back on track.

Foster, I like your posts, but are you expecting me to believe that when we signed Wilson Palacios, you weren't absolutely delighted and believed he could be part of the fabled "pushing on". He might have been out of Spurs team, but wasn't he outstanding in the Champions League for them that season?

Every transfer is a gamble, but when you think he cost £3m more than Dean Whitehead, I thought he was going to be a brilliant signing for us.

[stokiejoe]

I think Peter Coates is doing the sensible thing in being seen to be supporting TP at least until the srason has ended. There is no point in undemining the team with 5 games to go, unless and until you have a replacement available. The end of the season will bring clarity, one way or another, then there will be ample time to consider the future. Just because he is doing this does not mean he is going to keep or replace TP, it is just the sensible thing to do until the true extent of the problem is known. Anything else would be premature

[jstoke7]

Apr 17, 2013 11:44:13 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

WD, you could well be right and your argument is sound. For me it is partly about loyalty to a bloke who has helped bring back the good times, partly because of his track record in delivering before and partly because of the lack of a credible alternative. Put those 3 things together, and you can see where PC's position on this might be. I hope he's right and I hope they can turn it around. We've got some good players, so with 2 or 3 changes, surely we can get back on track.

Foster, I like your posts, but are you expecting me to believe that when we signed Wilson Palacios, you weren't absolutely delighted and believed he could be part of the fabled "pushing on". He might have been out of Spurs team, but wasn't he outstanding in the Champions League for them that season?

Every transfer is a gamble, but when you think he cost £3m more than Dean Whitehead, I thought he was going to be a brilliant signing for us.

Again I admire your patience and trust in TP but you could make these kind of excuses for every manager who has been sacked if you dig deep enough.

[MuddyWoody]

Apr 17, 2013 10:36:03 GMT sheikhmomo said:

I think there is a chance he will walk at the end of the season regardless of what happens, which could take the 'Coates factor' out of it. Whilst his dismissal of what other people think of him is legendary, I think that what happened in January has hurt him and the recent criticism has broke even his leathery thick skin. He has found he had less in the bank with supporters than he thought he had and that must burn a bit.

If I was a betting man however, which I am, I would still back him being here in 12 months time with the same painful debates going on and on.

I tend to agree. I think there's a strong chance that TP will no longer be the manager in the summer, whatever happens. TP's pride may force his hand. He may be moved "upstairs" rather than leave the club though.

I admit to being puzzled about the relationship between TP and PC. They seem to be at complete odds about aspects of the club such as the academy, which it's obvious PC feels is very important to the future of our club but TP seems to dismiss as a distraction, yet PC shows him loyalty which wouldn't be seen at 99% of clubs and has backed him to the hilt financially, even with his dubious record on transfers.