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Post by onionman on Apr 16, 2013 12:00:49 GMT
Not only did he not embrace it, he actively set about dismantling it. The Jones/Crouch thing has been debated to death but breaking up the centre backs to accommodate Woodgate was far more baffling. The Woodgate fiasco was TP in a nutshell. He signed him, not because he needed him, but because he could. Not based on his ability, but on his past achievements. And after that, he tried to work out how to shoehorn him in. He practically admitted that at the time, as well, with comments along the lines of "when a player like Woodgate becomes available you have to sign him" and "I don't know how we'll play them all, but we don't have to worry about that until they're all fit".
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Post by Dave the Rave on Apr 16, 2013 12:04:29 GMT
We're in this mess despite Pulis, not because of him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 12:07:01 GMT
Pulis' head was called for at West Ham, over two years ago. A very easy FA Cup route to Wembley masked a lot of shortcomings, even then, as TP virtually stumbled on a gameplan other than his first season man-the-barricades effort. he then proceeeded to systematically rip this gameplan up, for whatever reason. The only suprises are he's lasted this long (mates in high places, eh?) and that the national media are so thick they think we're simply ungrateful JCL's. Long ball crap and siege mentalities are ok for a couple of years. You eventually get found out, but not before boring/alienating a chunk of the support.What TP has done really has taken some doing. Indeed, it would be hard to think of many more managers who could have ballsed it up so massively from such a position of strength. See Watford, Wimbledon etc The depressing thing is that on the whole we've made Wimbledon look like Brazil.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 12:22:26 GMT
See Watford, Wimbledon etc The depressing thing is that on the whole we've made Wimbledon look like Brazil. Absolutely. I'm not a fan of Allardyce's football but there can be little questioning the fact that they were far superior in terms of getting the ball down and displaying technical ability at the Brit a few weeks back. When you are being outplayed and outpassed at home to a Big Sam outfit then you know something is pretty fucking wrong. We had a debate about this a while back Rob. Whilst I would be absolutely devastated if we replaced Pulis with Allardyce (pretty inconceivable now anyway given hes been offered a new contract at West Ham), he is undoubtadly a more advanced manager than our own. You were correct. We've got some major fucking problems right now. Pulis is taking us down and Coates seems to be lapping up the shit the manager is coming out with. Both Pulis and Coates are concerning me at the minute and our situation has the potential to be very similar to Blackburn in that we will have a manager who is not wanted, and a chairman who doesnt care what the fans think. (Some could argue we are already at this stage). Coates needs to make the decision in the summer at the latest otherwise he will justifiably recieve plenty of abuse. I hope for Coates' sake that his son is in his ear right now.
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Post by onionman on Apr 16, 2013 12:23:47 GMT
Wimbledon stayed in the top flight for a long time, because they stayed true to their principles. As soon as they replaced their numerous six-foot-five blokes from Hackney marshes with a bunch of Norway and Sweden internationals, and appointed that manager who wore wellies, they lost the thing that made them Wimbledon and went down.
We've done the same. When we lost Ric, Rory, Higgy, Salif, Mama and Tommy, we suddenly stopped being "Stoke".
The other factors - Crouch obsession, failing to buy new wingers, no full-backs - all played a part.
But we would have never plummeted like this if we were still "Stoke".
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 12:28:55 GMT
Wimbledon stayed in the top flight for a long time, because they stayed true to their principles. As soon as they replaced their numerous six-foot-five blokes from Hackney marshes with a bunch of Norway and Sweden internationals, and appointed that manager who wore wellies, they lost the thing that made them Wimbledon and went down. We've done the same. When we lost Ric, Rory, Higgy, Salif, Mama and Tommy, we suddenly stopped being "Stoke". The other factors - Crouch obsession, failing to buy new wingers, no full-backs - all played a part. But we would have never plummeted like this if we were still "Stoke". To be fair though onionman we hardly replaced Tuncay or Fuller with a flair player who regularly starts did we? I dont buy into the idea that we are torn between 2 styles. Pulis plays a certain way and always has done. Any flair player hes brought in since (probably only Adam would go in the category) has hardly been the reason for our decline. We got away with survival in our first season because of James Beattie's goals and we were saved from relegation in our cup final season because of our two wingers who transformed the season. Thats my take on it at any rate. We've been pretty lucky because as a whole our squad isnt a premier league squad by any means. (Ironically lucky given that Pulis thinks we are permanentely fighting against luck.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 16, 2013 12:28:57 GMT
Depressinger is that we were evolving nicely then he chose to go binary. Baffling because we have players not to have to do that.
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Post by Danstoke82 on Apr 16, 2013 12:33:18 GMT
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Post by Danstoke82 on Apr 16, 2013 12:36:21 GMT
Wimbledon stayed in the top flight for a long time, because they stayed true to their principles. As soon as they replaced their numerous six-foot-five blokes from Hackney marshes with a bunch of Norway and Sweden internationals, and appointed that manager who wore wellies, they lost the thing that made them Wimbledon and went down. We've done the same. When we lost Ric, Rory, Higgy, Salif, Mama and Tommy, we suddenly stopped being "Stoke". The other factors - Crouch obsession, failing to buy new wingers, no full-backs - all played a part. But we would have never plummeted like this if we were still "Stoke". To be fair though onionman we hardly replaced Tuncay or Fuller with a flair player who regularly starts did we? I dont buy into the idea that we are torn between 2 styles. Pulis plays a certain way and always has done. Any flair player hes brought in since (probably only Adam would go in the category) has hardly been the reason for our decline. We got away with survival in our first season because of James Beattie's goals and we were saved from relegation in our cup final season because of our two wingers who transformed the season. Thats my take on it at any rate. We've been pretty lucky because as a whole our squad isnt a premier league squad by any means. (Ironically lucky given that Pulis thinks we are permanentely fighting against luck. Im still gutted to this day that Pulis destroyed Tuncay and then subsequently flogged him without signing a replacement. Yes he was hot headed and moaned a lot but there were times for me when I thought he was outstanding. Fuller obviously without question is a huge miss.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 12:47:13 GMT
To be fair though onionman we hardly replaced Tuncay or Fuller with a flair player who regularly starts did we? I dont buy into the idea that we are torn between 2 styles. Pulis plays a certain way and always has done. Any flair player hes brought in since (probably only Adam would go in the category) has hardly been the reason for our decline. We got away with survival in our first season because of James Beattie's goals and we were saved from relegation in our cup final season because of our two wingers who transformed the season. Thats my take on it at any rate. We've been pretty lucky because as a whole our squad isnt a premier league squad by any means. (Ironically lucky given that Pulis thinks we are permanentely fighting against luck. Im still gutted to this day that Pulis destroyed Tuncay and then subsequently flogged him without signing a replacement. Yes he was hot headed and moaned a lot but there were times for me when I thought he was outstanding. Fuller obviously without question is a huge miss. absolutely Dan. We are crying out for a player like Tuncay at the moment. He could get the crowd going by merely running onto the pitch and had the ability to change games with moments of magic.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 16, 2013 12:50:07 GMT
[/quote]In the clamour to remember how great we were in that run towards the end of the 2010/11 season, some forget just how bad we were prior to the FA Cup Quarter Final. Like Dave says, TP was persisting with Carew and Jones up front, playing only one winger and arsing around with the full back positions. The performances at Fulham, Birmingham and West Ham and at home to West Brom were as abject as anything we are currently witnessing.
You tend to think that the 3-0 defeat at West Ham was a wake up call, but was it really? Had Carew not been injured would he have changed anything?
And even if TP did stumble on his formation for the rest of that season, there's no crime in that. Bobby Robson stumbled on a formula which could have won England the 1990 World Cup. The crime is that TP didn't embrace what he had and hasn't developed or improved things.[/quote] [/font]
Too right Dave though I had actually forgotten about that 1-0 reverse away at Birmingham. My god we were absolutely shite that day. A shit performance which followed hot on the heels of equally inept performances away at Fulham and Arsenal and was followed by the games against West Brom and West Ham.
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Post by mermaidsal on Apr 16, 2013 12:54:50 GMT
Could track back forever for the seeds of trouble but on the other hand you'd find the seeds of many many good things too - shorter term, first half v Soton was when I knew the wheels were coming off, the second half of that game was the fluke not the first half.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Apr 16, 2013 12:57:03 GMT
I'll go with the signing of Crouch too, he wasn't needed, Jones was doing well, the money was needed else where, still glad we didn't sign Ba though. You're glad we didn't sign Ba? What? With the info we had at the time it was the right decision not to sign him, its one of the few things we've done right recently, sorry should have worded it a lot better.
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Post by onionman on Apr 16, 2013 13:03:46 GMT
Wimbledon stayed in the top flight for a long time, because they stayed true to their principles. As soon as they replaced their numerous six-foot-five blokes from Hackney marshes with a bunch of Norway and Sweden internationals, and appointed that manager who wore wellies, they lost the thing that made them Wimbledon and went down. We've done the same. When we lost Ric, Rory, Higgy, Salif, Mama and Tommy, we suddenly stopped being "Stoke". The other factors - Crouch obsession, failing to buy new wingers, no full-backs - all played a part. But we would have never plummeted like this if we were still "Stoke". To be fair though onionman we hardly replaced Tuncay or Fuller with a flair player who regularly starts did we? I dont buy into the idea that we are torn between 2 styles. Pulis plays a certain way and always has done. Any flair player hes brought in since (probably only Adam would go in the category) has hardly been the reason for our decline. We got away with survival in our first season because of James Beattie's goals and we were saved from relegation in our cup final season because of our two wingers who transformed the season. Thats my take on it at any rate. We've been pretty lucky because as a whole our squad isnt a premier league squad by any means. (Ironically lucky given that Pulis thinks we are permanentely fighting against luck. Yes, as I said, allowing our creative players to fade away one by one, without being replaced, was a terrible error. But what's even worse than our lack of flair players is that we now have a team minus any characters, that falls apart at the first prod of an opposing attack, that can't summon any fighting spirit even in a relegation battle. The whole ethos of the club has changed from the never-say-die spirit of 2007-2011 to today's good-evening-sir-how-would-you-like-me-to-die spirit. With a bit of backbone, we would not have lost 10 games out of 13 (or whatever it is). We'd still be crap without our creative players, but we'd have ground out enough points to survive. Losing the flair players should have been enough to get Pulis sacked. Losing the characters has killed the spirit of the club, which is even worse.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 13:08:59 GMT
To be fair though onionman we hardly replaced Tuncay or Fuller with a flair player who regularly starts did we? I dont buy into the idea that we are torn between 2 styles. Pulis plays a certain way and always has done. Any flair player hes brought in since (probably only Adam would go in the category) has hardly been the reason for our decline. We got away with survival in our first season because of James Beattie's goals and we were saved from relegation in our cup final season because of our two wingers who transformed the season. Thats my take on it at any rate. We've been pretty lucky because as a whole our squad isnt a premier league squad by any means. (Ironically lucky given that Pulis thinks we are permanentely fighting against luck. Yes, as I said, allowing our creative players to fade away one by one, without being replaced, was a terrible error. But what's even worse than our lack of flair players is that we now have a team minus any characters, that falls apart at the first prod of an opposing attack, that can't summon any fighting spirit even in a relegation battle. The whole ethos of the club has changed from the never-say-die spirit of 2007-2011 to today's good-evening-sir-how-would-you-like-me-to-die spirit. With a bit of backbone, we would not have lost 10 games out of 13 (or whatever it is). We'd still be crap without our creative players, but we'd have ground out enough points to survive. Losing the flair players should have been enough to get Pulis sacked. Losing the characters has killed the spirit of the club, which is even worse. Yeah fair points. Agree with all.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 13:13:12 GMT
You're glad we didn't sign Ba? What? With the info we had at the time it was the right decision not to sign him, its one of the few things we've done right recently, sorry should have worded it a lot better. Thing is though boskamp we dont know what the info was and whatever info it was proved extremely costly. Wouldnt it be fair to question our medical related decision making? We let Ba go and brought in Palacios who clearly has severe issues whether it be physical or mental or both. Made worse by the fact that we were prepared to pay more for Palacios than the alleged Ba fee. The research that the club has done into potential signings ie Palacios and Ba has been nothing short of disastrous and quite frankly unforgivable.
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Post by bossthemidfield on Apr 16, 2013 13:27:45 GMT
When we signed KJ.... fucking idle twat! end of. For a guy his size etc defenders should be scared shitless, instead they see him and think easy game today he can’t out run a tap plus couldn’t score in a brothel etc.
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Post by snapper23 on Apr 16, 2013 13:34:05 GMT
Actually I blame it all on the gale that blew the roof off the Butler Street stand! Hear me out, thats not as mad as it sounds. Go onto You tube and look at the videos of how we played in the 60s and 70s or indeed even in the 80s and 90s. Old fashioned centre forwards, creative and attacking mid -field, ball played to feet, men running off the target man with pace or playing on the shoulder of the last defender, proper wingers..... need I go on. It's been said so many times before on this and other threads. Football is a simple game but the key is the players and the coach understanding and buying into the system. I do not buy this stuff about us been caught between a rock and a hard place in terms of style. IMO our GK is as good if not better, our defence is still one of the meanest in the PL and with Wilko at RB is arguably only short of a LB; the question really is in the creative department which is why we score so few goals. Our midfield (Adams excepted and arguably Nzonzi if he manned up) is incapable of creating anything which is an attacking variation. The lack of genuine wingers means we are stuffed in terms of stretching teams defences and much though both Crouch and Jones are capable of offering in the right system you cannot blame them if they are getting zero/piss poor service. I think there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. If what I read elsewhere on other threads is true about JPs horizontal activities causing RH to twat him in public and the players refusing to play with him there is no point about us whinging about the fact he is missing. ME is clearly knackered/finished (sad to say) but there has to be something that can be created out of Palacios/Crouch/ Walters/Shea/Kightly /Jerome ( and not just a pile of plasticene!) Howl me down if you want but I would play the following team at QPR Bego
Wilko ShawX Huth Wilson
Nzonzi Adam Shea
Walters Jerome
Jones
We might just then have a chance of getting at least a point. But then again, what do I know................?
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Post by bunnyscfc on Apr 16, 2013 13:37:32 GMT
"The whole ethos of the club has changed from the never-say-die spirit of 2007-2011 to today's good-evening-sir-how-would-you-like-me-to-die spirit."
Great line, and consider it nicked for the Norwich Oatcake ; )
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Post by onionman on Apr 16, 2013 13:51:47 GMT
"The whole ethos of the club has changed from the never-say-die spirit of 2007-2011 to today's good-evening-sir-how-would-you-like-me-to-die spirit." Great line, and consider it nicked for the Norwich Oatcake ; ) Cheers mate. It's such a shame that a Pulis team has turned out this way. Maybe one day, when he's really old, he'll look back and realise the awful cost of abandoning the principles which, love him or hate him, kept him in a job for the best part of two decades.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Apr 16, 2013 13:59:08 GMT
"The whole ethos of the club has changed from the never-say-die spirit of 2007-2011 to today's good-evening-sir-how-would-you-like-me-to-die spirit." Great line, and consider it nicked for the Norwich Oatcake ; ) Pretty much sums it up. You don't have to have players that feel like they owe the club something, but it helps. Fuller, Delap, Higgy, Lawrence, you could go on, were all rescued from low points and played for this club with an intensity which suggested it meant more to them. They haven't been replaced with anything like the same desire and commitment. BUT They were never likely to be, and the manager should have seen that rather than the intesity and passion of the first two years his system would have to change to rely on width and delivery.
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Post by onionman on Apr 16, 2013 15:00:52 GMT
Chorlton,
I'd argue we could have maintained a decent mid-table position for many years by replacing the old guard with other hungry players with a point to prove.
It would have been frustrating on some levels as no doubt we'd have had more Walters types chasing after balloons, and Pulis would have been constantly criticised on here for failing to evolve.
There's definitely a glass ceiling for Pulis's old philosophy. It's just that we're currently a long way below it.
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mt
Youth Player
Posts: 355
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Post by mt on Apr 16, 2013 16:22:30 GMT
Should have stick with Austria preparing for a new season. It worked out brilliant in the past, so why did they change it? That trip to US was a huge mistake .
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Post by henry on Apr 16, 2013 16:39:21 GMT
The Crouch/Palacios double swoop was the beginning of the end. The same Crouch you had nailed-on to be top scorer this season ?
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Post by werrington on Apr 16, 2013 16:59:39 GMT
Its been a ticking time bomb for many years now
The whole squad has been stripped of any pace or ideas and now its reached a critical situation.
Millions spent on players who are NEVER used or played out of position
The current team is a complete shambles.....take out the keeper and the two centre halves and we have two full backs who are constantly changing positions during the game and none who are left footed and indeed one a midfield player ( and thats not counting Wilson )
A midfield who are stifled beyond belief and two wingers who are not wingers as one is a full back and one a centre forward and neither pass a ball never mind go past a man.
We have a centre forward who at £10m is totally not suited to the archaic style of football we play and has scored ONE GOAL in nearly SEVEN months and one of the most succesful strikers in English football history coming onto the pitch and playing right midfield
Pulis is slowly wrecking OUR football club and we are standing by and letting him do it
I could go on and on and on as that is just scraping the surface but i would be here all night
Where did it start.......FUCKING YEARS AGO
For heavens sake Pulis get out of my football club
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Post by stokiesteve on Apr 16, 2013 17:16:40 GMT
I would go as far back as the second prem season.
As Merson said on SSN on Saturday, Pulis has been obsessed with the 40 point mark and cradling us as a small club in a big league instead of doing what he has always said he would do and evolve the team.
The Beattie Xmas do fiasco didn't help him much.
And as has been said on here already, signing pre madonnas who don't give a toss about us when not considering evolving his style.
If he knew he was keeping the cage, he should have signed the right players to fit.
I cannot understand signing players like Palacios and Edu for big money and doing nothing with them.
Stoke haven't hit the ceiling, Pulis has.
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Post by harrysburrow on Apr 16, 2013 17:28:37 GMT
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Post by lostinafrenchbar on Apr 16, 2013 17:30:38 GMT
I think it went wrong when all good things go wrong, at the best moment, which was the FA Cup semi-final. Straight afterwards Higgy and Fuller went down with injuries and Matty never really got over his. The next season the team never had the same bite; then came the cop-out at Valencia and it's been slowly downhill since. The warning sign was all the weird activity in the transfer market pre-season. We now know the club wasn't united about the transfer policy, and the results have been dire.
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Post by foster on Apr 16, 2013 17:36:21 GMT
I'd say it was around the time I decided to start wanking with my left hand.
In similar fashion to the club, I lost all rhythm, everything was out of sync, I had zero sense of balance, I lacked both stamina and pace, I got into a monotonous routine encumbered by both a lack of flexibility and movement. Half the time my left hand didn't have clue where it was supposed to be. It took me ages to get going and in the end the result was always disappointing.
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Post by owdestokie on Apr 16, 2013 18:06:04 GMT
I think there have been numerous valid points made on this post. On Sunday I said to a mate after the game that I'm not sure who we are anymore. Are we the pressing get up um side that everyone loved to hate or are we a mid table footballing side. Sadly we are neither, we seem lost at sea without a compass.
I also think the loss of Wilson and Ethers significantly impacted on our balance, the lack of real progress in the January window and the Fulham game being pivotal to our continued demise.
Here's hoping for safety and a summer of solutions
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