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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 16, 2013 9:01:21 GMT
I think we stopped progressing when we bought Crouch, Palacios and Jerome. We spent 22 million pounds and our starting XI didn't come out a pound better. Yeah - that takes some doing. Especially when you're riding the crest of a wave and glowing in the aftermath of a cup final appearance. The world was our oyster that summer and we f****d it up spectacularly. There were still chances for us to grab a life raft, but we haven't taken them. A second witless summer buying round has left us mortally wounded.
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Apr 16, 2013 9:09:43 GMT
Although there have been many mistakes made over the last 2 years to get us to where we are now, the catalyst for the current slump was the Man City away game at the start of the year. We'd experienced a pretty productive Christmas and started to score goals, so the capped genius decided to scrap any positivity and travel to the Emirates with the white flag raised from the top of the team bus.
Another surrender, and one reminder too many for players and fans that the manager was not interested in "pushing on".
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 16, 2013 9:10:47 GMT
Can there be one point?
We look back on 2010/11 with a great deal of fondness but in the game before we beat West Ham in the FA Cup 1/4 Final, that team was heading in one direction and one direction only...to the drop.
Injury to Carew, given that he had fallen out with Ric, meant that he had no option but to move Walters up front and put Pennant in the starting 11 permanently. Didn't Wilson get suspended as well which meant that Wilko had to come into the team at right back with Higgy replacing Pugh at left back.
Things fell into place and we went on that glorious run but you could argue that things were going wrong prior to that.
Without picking one point, I would say that there was a number of significant instances which can be used to trace back our decline, with Valencia away being the final point at which TP reached the point of no return. The dates/events in my mind are as follows;
1) Ric's quick succession of dislocated shoulder injuries which meant that the very promising KJ/Ric partnership was broken up 2) Blackpool at home. We should have won 6. Ric missed a load of chances and Pulis singled him out on the back of him asking for a contract extension similar to those that had been handed out to Delap, Salif, Pugh, Higgy, Nash and Mama in the two weeks prior to that 3) Etherington's injury v Wolves 4) Fuller's injury v Villa. The true end of the road for the great man and just the excuse Pulis needed to bomb him out of the club for good 5) The Cup final itself...We all viewed it as heroic defeat given injuries to our 3 star men (Huth, Ethers & Ric) but in the cold light of day it was an abject surrender in the manner of so many performances over the last 18 months. The manager didn't believe we could win and sent his team out to try and reach penalties 6) Summer Transfer window 2011...5 players, loads of money, none of which improved our starting 11 and not one winger signed to add much needed cover to Pennant and Ethers. Almost everyone on here lamented that failure to sign wing cover. Why couldn't our manager see it? 7) Valencia away - The final nail in his coffin and the best and worst day of my Stoke supporting life. To surrender one of the biggest games in our history in that manner was simply unforgivable and it has been downhill ever since. I think he lost some of the players that day as well
Take your pick really isn't it. The slump started in December 2010 but it was arrested briefly with that run to the cup final. It continued in the following season and basically, this team can't function without Ricardo Fuller.
Ricardo Fuller made Pulis a multi-millionaire and without him (or someone like him) Pulisball will never work.
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Post by generationex on Apr 16, 2013 9:14:10 GMT
Not being able (or not wanting) to replace Delap, Fuller, Sidibie like for like. Pennants indiscipline. Attempting to replace Pulis type players with footballers. The sheer grind of always having to play at 100mph.
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Apr 16, 2013 9:19:04 GMT
Can there be one point? We look back on 2010/11 with a great deal of fondness but in the game before we beat West Ham in the FA Cup 1/4 Final, that team was heading in one direction and one direction only...to the drop. Injury to Carew, given that he had fallen out with Ric, meant that he had no option but to move Walters up front and put Pennant in the starting 11 permanently. Didn't Wilson get suspended as well which meant that Wilko had to come into the team at right back with Higgy replacing Pugh at left back. Things fell into place and we went on that glorious run but you could argue that things were going wrong prior to that. Without picking one point, I would say that there was a number of significant instances which can be used to trace back our decline, with Valencia away being the final point at which TP reached the point of no return. The dates/events in my mind are as follows; 1) Ric's quick succession of dislocated shoulder injuries which meant that the very promising KJ/Ric partnership was broken up 2) Blackpool at home. We should have won 6. Ric missed a load of chances and Pulis singled him out on the back of him asking for a contract extension similar to those that had been handed out to Delap, Salif, Pugh, Higgy, Nash and Mama in the two weeks prior to that 3) Etherington's injury v Wolves 4) Fuller's injury v Villa. The true end of the road for the great man and just the excuse Pulis needed to bomb him out of the club for good 5) The Cup final itself...We all viewed it as heroic defeat given injuries to our 3 star men (Huth, Ethers & Ric) but in the cold light of day it was an abject surrender in the manner of so many performances over the last 18 months. The manager didn't believe we could win and sent his team out to try and reach penalties 6) Summer Transfer window 2011...5 players, loads of money, none of which improved our starting 11 and not one winger signed to add much needed cover to Pennant and Ethers. Almost everyone on here lamented that failure to sign wing cover. Why couldn't our manager see it? 7) Valencia away - The final nail in his coffin and the best and worst day of my Stoke supporting life. To surrender one of the biggest games in our history in that manner was simply unforgivable and it has been downhill ever since. I think he lost some of the players that day as well Take your pick really isn't it. The slump started in December 2010 but it was arrested briefly with that run to the cup final. It continued in the following season and basically, this team can't function without Ricardo Fuller. Ricardo Fuller made Pulis a multi-millionaire and without him (or someone like him) Pulisball will never work. Can't disagree with any of that. Made me think though, wasn't there a couple of instances in the promotion season where we were helped by injuries / suspensions that meant he had to play the team we all wanted?
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Post by stantheman on Apr 16, 2013 9:22:16 GMT
The lack of "Stoke DNA" since the signing of Crouch/Palacios has been our biggst problem.
We've now got a group of players who are average beyond belief, who cost a fortune, who have no fight in them, who see playing for us as just being a wage.
Look at the squad we had in the 1st season we stayed up.
Players who cost fook all, who gave 100% for the cause, who created an atmosphere that made us one of the most feared teams in the land.
Ric, Lenny, Higgy, Abdy, Rory, Beattie & Co, I'd take you all back now as even in your latter stages of your playing careers, you couldn't be any worse than the dross we're currently being subjected to.
A group of players with team spirit that we're a million miles away from now.
I fear the worst, and anyone who thinks relegation would be a good thing, needs a check up from the neck up.
It would be an unmitigated disaster.
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Post by st3mark on Apr 16, 2013 9:31:22 GMT
This season when Delap stopped playing.
We lost his leadership, his throw ins, his versatility across the park, his battling in the middle.
His passing was average, his shooting was poor, his tackling was good but he did his job and helped others to do theirs.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 16, 2013 9:50:47 GMT
There were plenty such incidents Alvechurch.
None more so than the Coventry game where we were woeful, Griffin got injured, Dicko came in at left back and Lawrence and Fuller entered the fray as 2nd half subs.
No more reliance on a half arsed Ameobi and a the lousy Pearson.
I get slaughtered for saying we were promoted despite Pulis rather than because of him.
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Post by serpico on Apr 16, 2013 10:11:19 GMT
It's very simple, we used to have players (fuller, pennant pre injury Etherington) capable of winning , and then delivering set pieces, now we don't have any at all.
Crouch doesn't suit our style, however i still think he'd score 10-12 goals a season with the right service from the wide areas.
Pulis has bizarrely decided to strip the side naked of a key component to our success, dead ball winners and deliverers.
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Post by mrred on Apr 16, 2013 10:21:11 GMT
Failing to prepare for the demise of Etherington's fitness, Ric's sharpness and Pennant's attitude - something anyone with half a brain should have seen was absolutely vital - bordered on negligence. I do believe this has been a big part of the problem. Ethers hasn't been half the player since Wolves before the final, Pennants exclusion was always coming and and much as it pains me to say, Ric didn't have much more in him to compete at this level. So why didn't we prepare for any of that?
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 16, 2013 10:22:19 GMT
When we got rid of Tuncay.
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Post by roylandstoke on Apr 16, 2013 10:23:58 GMT
Can there be one point? We look back on 2010/11 with a great deal of fondness but in the game before we beat West Ham in the FA Cup 1/4 Final, that team was heading in one direction and one direction only...to the drop. Injury to Carew, given that he had fallen out with Ric, meant that he had no option but to move Walters up front and put Pennant in the starting 11 permanently. Didn't Wilson get suspended as well which meant that Wilko had to come into the team at right back with Higgy replacing Pugh at left back. Things fell into place and we went on that glorious run but you could argue that things were going wrong prior to that. Without picking one point, I would say that there was a number of significant instances which can be used to trace back our decline, with Valencia away being the final point at which TP reached the point of no return. The dates/events in my mind are as follows; 1) Ric's quick succession of dislocated shoulder injuries which meant that the very promising KJ/Ric partnership was broken up 2) Blackpool at home. We should have won 6. Ric missed a load of chances and Pulis singled him out on the back of him asking for a contract extension similar to those that had been handed out to Delap, Salif, Pugh, Higgy, Nash and Mama in the two weeks prior to that 3) Etherington's injury v Wolves 4) Fuller's injury v Villa. The true end of the road for the great man and just the excuse Pulis needed to bomb him out of the club for good 5) The Cup final itself...We all viewed it as heroic defeat given injuries to our 3 star men (Huth, Ethers & Ric) but in the cold light of day it was an abject surrender in the manner of so many performances over the last 18 months. The manager didn't believe we could win and sent his team out to try and reach penalties 6) Summer Transfer window 2011...5 players, loads of money, none of which improved our starting 11 and not one winger signed to add much needed cover to Pennant and Ethers. Almost everyone on here lamented that failure to sign wing cover. Why couldn't our manager see it? 7) Valencia away - The final nail in his coffin and the best and worst day of my Stoke supporting life. To surrender one of the biggest games in our history in that manner was simply unforgivable and it has been downhill ever since. I think he lost some of the players that day as well Take your pick really isn't it. The slump started in December 2010 but it was arrested briefly with that run to the cup final. It continued in the following season and basically, this team can't function without Ricardo Fuller. Ricardo Fuller made Pulis a multi-millionaire and without him (or someone like him) Pulisball will never work. Can't disagree with any of that. Made me think though, wasn't there a couple of instances in the promotion season where we were helped by injuries / suspensions that meant he had to play the team we all wanted? Being deprived of the team Pulis wants to inflict on us by either injury or suspension: This is the kind of luck we need. Without an incidence of it this season we'd already be relegated.
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Post by Alvechurch Assassin on Apr 16, 2013 10:25:03 GMT
There were plenty such incidents Alvechurch. None more so than the Coventry game where we were woeful, Griffin got injured, Dicko came in at left back and Lawrence and Fuller entered the fray as 2nd half subs. No more reliance on a half arsed Ameobi and a the lousy Pearson. I get slaughtered for saying we were promoted despite Pulis rather than because of him. That was it. Thanks for the reminder of his ineptitude / good fortune even at the start of his tenure.
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Post by trickydicky73 on Apr 16, 2013 10:32:22 GMT
The turning point was changing a winning side(Liverpool)to a losing one(Swansea). That was down to Mr.Pulis and no rimmer has been able to justify it.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 16, 2013 10:35:21 GMT
Personally I think it all started to unravel when we tried to sign Ba on the cheap. This clearly had a knock on effect when we then plumbed or is that got mugged by Arry' for Crouchy (actually think he's a decent footballer but used in entirely the wrong way by Pulis, there's a surprise!) and Where's Wilson? Palacios for a huge amount of money. I feel as a result of the Ba fiasco Pulis was under incredible pressure to pacify Coatsie & to a lesser extent in turn the supporters to take us to that next level (still not sure what that really is for a club of our size considering we were cup finalists, in Europe & comfortably mid table). Since then it's been one painful transfer window after another. Signing what on the face of it are very good 'next level' players Nzonzi, Adam but then not having the foresight to play them in an effective manner, which I guess brings me back to Crouch (other examples are available). I think what I'm trying to say is that the catalogue of mistakes has been prevalent since Ba gate & for me on reflection is the point at which the rot slowly started to set in. Our manager has attempted to at least give the impression that he's responding to the desires of his chairman but due to his all to obvious limitations hasn't been able to take us to the holy grail next level. It's almost as though he's had all the prezzies on his Santa Christmas list & then decide to play with the boxes they came in. Not to then mention player fall outs, falling out with the fans via his interviews etc etc, but as I pointed out in the thread title this is about when do you think it all started to go wrong? However, the far more important question about what we do to change things still remains with or without Pulis. Just hope but don't expect us to stay up.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 16, 2013 10:47:48 GMT
All started to go wrong the day we qualified for the Euro cup, Pulis needed a bigger squad and he spent money on lots of players, badly. It was always going to happen though the longer we stayed in the league, TP's tactics do not suit technically better players that the ongoing riches of the Premier LEague bring. Pulis has proved time & time again that he will play championship standard players in his team before adding real Premiership Quality regsardless of wether it's the right thing to do or not. He simply does not have the tactical nouse to be a modern top level manager, if he had got it we would be seeing it by now. The under-dog team talks Pulis serves up don't wash with better players they know they are capable of more, Pulis can't deal with these players for this reason hence why we have in my opinion a stronger squad than first 11.
It's been plainly obvious to a fair few for a good while now, it should of been plainly obvious to many more long ago.
Pulis is a good Lower League manager who can provide an effective standard of Lower League football by wheeling and dealing for characters & Grafters with limited ability, he is now a fish out of water and the unbeleivable thing is he has managed to pull the wool over so many peoples eyes for so long. Not me he hasn't.
Any successful buisness who can afford one employ the best manager they can afford who has the qualified skills for the job in hand, except SCFC it seems, it's all coming home to roost now though.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 16, 2013 10:50:12 GMT
And was it worth it the Euro Cup, to get to valencia and not even fill the bench. The mind still boggles at this.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Apr 16, 2013 10:56:16 GMT
There were plenty such incidents Alvechurch. None more so than the Coventry game where we were woeful, Griffin got injured, Dicko came in at left back and Lawrence and Fuller entered the fray as 2nd half subs. No more reliance on a half arsed Ameobi and a the lousy Pearson. I get slaughtered for saying we were promoted despite Pulis rather than because of him. And rightly so dj. Even though at the time I totally agreed with you, it's a ridiculous standpoint.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 16, 2013 10:57:07 GMT
Last but not least he doesn't even put out an effective team anymore, we offer nothing going forward, nothing in holding the ball & being patient, no pace, no flair, no invention, it's about as mis-jointed & ineffective as it gets without someone doing it deliberatly! Some would argue you would struggle to come to this current contraption if you tried. Just how the fuck does he expect to win a football match when we offer the square root of fuck all. FFS We play for dead balls and we let Fuller (the master at winning them) leave on a free contract!! We don't even play a decent dead ball man who can put in a good free kick or corner! Etherington is barely fit, Pennant can't buy a game & Adam has been a spectator all season.
It's fucking obvious to anyone what is wrong, everyfuckingthing! How is this even possible?!?! It's negligence of the highest degree!
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Post by partickpotter on Apr 16, 2013 11:10:34 GMT
Much as I think the Palacios signing was stupid, I think it was largely irrelevant in a Sonko/Davies kind of way. A huge waste of cash, but not one that particularly changed our direction. Signing Crouch triggered a crazy obsession with a team selection that blatantly didn't work, and contributed significantly to our downfall. Failing to prepare for the demise of Etherington's fitness, Ric's sharpness and Pennant's attitude - something anyone with half a brain should have seen was absolutely vital - bordered on negligence.But the over-riding blunder for me was TP underestimating how badly his whole philosophy would come unstuck when he allowed so many true men's men to leave at the same time, to be replaced by supposed superior footballers and big names who neither care about the club nor have an ounce of fighting spirit between them. The part I've highlighted in bold is 100%.It was all too evident in the FA Cup Final defeat against Citeh which meant addressing these squad weaknesses in the next transfer window was vital. So I reckon you can answer this question very precisely - it all started to go wrong in the 2011 summer transfer window
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Post by Davef on Apr 16, 2013 11:19:41 GMT
Can there be one point? We look back on 2010/11 with a great deal of fondness but in the game before we beat West Ham in the FA Cup 1/4 Final, that team was heading in one direction and one direction only...to the drop. Injury to Carew, given that he had fallen out with Ric, meant that he had no option but to move Walters up front and put Pennant in the starting 11 permanently. Didn't Wilson get suspended as well which meant that Wilko had to come into the team at right back with Higgy replacing Pugh at left back. Things fell into place and we went on that glorious run but you could argue that things were going wrong prior to that. Without picking one point, I would say that there was a number of significant instances which can be used to trace back our decline, with Valencia away being the final point at which TP reached the point of no return. The dates/events in my mind are as follows; 1) Ric's quick succession of dislocated shoulder injuries which meant that the very promising KJ/Ric partnership was broken up 2) Blackpool at home. We should have won 6. Ric missed a load of chances and Pulis singled him out on the back of him asking for a contract extension similar to those that had been handed out to Delap, Salif, Pugh, Higgy, Nash and Mama in the two weeks prior to that 3) Etherington's injury v Wolves 4) Fuller's injury v Villa. The true end of the road for the great man and just the excuse Pulis needed to bomb him out of the club for good 5) The Cup final itself...We all viewed it as heroic defeat given injuries to our 3 star men (Huth, Ethers & Ric) but in the cold light of day it was an abject surrender in the manner of so many performances over the last 18 months. The manager didn't believe we could win and sent his team out to try and reach penalties 6) Summer Transfer window 2011...5 players, loads of money, none of which improved our starting 11 and not one winger signed to add much needed cover to Pennant and Ethers. Almost everyone on here lamented that failure to sign wing cover. Why couldn't our manager see it? 7) Valencia away - The final nail in his coffin and the best and worst day of my Stoke supporting life. To surrender one of the biggest games in our history in that manner was simply unforgivable and it has been downhill ever since. I think he lost some of the players that day as well Take your pick really isn't it. The slump started in December 2010 but it was arrested briefly with that run to the cup final. It continued in the following season and basically, this team can't function without Ricardo Fuller. Ricardo Fuller made Pulis a multi-millionaire and without him (or someone like him) Pulisball will never work. In the clamour to remember how great we were in that run towards the end of the 2010/11 season, some forget just how bad we were prior to the FA Cup Quarter Final. Like Dave says, TP was persisting with Carew and Jones up front, playing only one winger and arsing around with the full back positions. The performances at Fulham, Birmingham and West Ham and at home to West Brom were as abject as anything we are currently witnessing. You tend to think that the 3-0 defeat at West Ham was a wake up call, but was it really? Had Carew not been injured would he have changed anything? And even if TP did stumble on his formation for the rest of that season, there's no crime in that. Bobby Robson stumbled on a formula which could have won England the 1990 World Cup. The crime is that TP didn't embrace what he had and hasn't developed or improved things.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Apr 16, 2013 11:21:51 GMT
I'll go with the signing of Crouch too, he wasn't needed, Jones was doing well, the money was needed else where, still glad we didn't sign Ba though. You're glad we didn't sign Ba? What?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 11:23:08 GMT
Not only did he not embrace it, he actively set about dismantling it. The Jones/Crouch thing has been debated to death but breaking up the centre backs to accommodate Woodgate was far more baffling.
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Post by JoeinOz on Apr 16, 2013 11:28:25 GMT
Turning point IMHO was quite later on than some suggest. I reckon it was chucking the two goal lead away v Wigan on January 29th
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Post by stokiepo on Apr 16, 2013 11:29:49 GMT
We've been inconsistent every season, despite having a decent run here and there.
For me, it fell apart this season when, having put Liverpool to the sword, Pulis inexplicably dropped Jones and began messing with what was clearly our best side. Jones wasn't the key player by any means but he is quicker than Crouch and, when played with two wingers, is always a handful. Two wingers and two forwards enable us to play at our strengths. The last time we looked decent was against Liverpool - two wingers and two forwards.
For the record, Crouch and Adam are good players and have decent games at times but they don't fit us.
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Post by thesandbankskid on Apr 16, 2013 11:41:02 GMT
Not only did he not embrace it, he actively set about dismantling it. The Jones/Crouch thing has been debated to death but breaking up the centre backs to accommodate Woodgate was far more baffling. I agree for both and if you look at the bigger picture you can see what was going through his head.. Oooh Crouch is 6ft 7 & England International we'll score loads with him flicking them on. & OOh, Woodgate played for Real Madrid and England, he has to be good ( on par with Vincent pericard played for Juventus, you know). As the saying goes " Don't fix what is not broken", this is a supposed Premier League manager we are talking about who earns a kings ransom. Stoke fans who visit the job centre unable to find work could put together a better lineup & transfer target list than TP ( Yes I am being serious). And put out a better tactical game. The position we are in financially TP should be looking to set up a team that looks for and is capable of getting 3 point in every single match except the top 4, then & only then class the big 4 as 'Bonus Games' and have a go. There is very little to fear in this over-rated league we could and should be punching our own weight quite easily. We should by now be concentrating on how to win the game and let teams worry about us but the defeatest always has to set up to try to disarm the opposisition. The guy is way out of his depth, he is afraid of this League.
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Post by Davef on Apr 16, 2013 11:44:03 GMT
We've been inconsistent every season, despite having a decent run here and there. For me, it fell apart this season when, having put Liverpool to the sword, Pulis inexplicably dropped Jones and began messing with what was clearly our best side. Jones wasn't the key player by any means but he is quicker than Crouch and, when played with two wingers, is always a handful. Two wingers and two forwards enable us to play at our strengths. The last time we looked decent was against Liverpool - two wingers and two forwards. For the record, Crouch and Adam are good players and have decent games at times but they don't fit us. I don't think there's any point in complaining about inconsistency stokiepo. Every team of our size will suffer from that in this league at some stage over the course of a season. That's just a fact of Premier League life.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Apr 16, 2013 11:49:24 GMT
Pulis' head was called for at West Ham, over two years ago. A very easy FA Cup route to Wembley masked a lot of shortcomings, even then, as TP virtually stumbled on a gameplan other than his first season man-the-barricades effort.
he then proceeeded to systematically rip this gameplan up, for whatever reason. The only suprises are he's lasted this long (mates in high places, eh?) and that the national media are so thick they think we're simply ungrateful JCL's. Long ball crap and siege mentalities are ok for a couple of years. You eventually get found out, but not before boring/alienating a chunk of the support.
What TP has done really has taken some doing. Indeed, it would be hard to think of many more managers who could have ballsed it up so massively from such a position of strength.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 11:51:22 GMT
When we went on our 10 match unbeaten run, the best form of this dire campaign, KJ played a much bigger part than Crouch in the Starting XI. He scored a few goals and we generally looked a much better side for his inclusion instead of Crouch.
The fact that Pulis swapped it back once Crouch was fit is criminal. There was no justification for it. We were doing great as things were and KJ was beginning to thrive with his run in the team. What happened to earning the right to keep the shirt?
The only reason Tony Pulis can possibly give for making the change is that either Crouchie is one of his favourites, or that he was too afraid to leave Crouch out having spent £10m on him. Either way, it was to the detriment to the team and one of the main reasons we find ourselves in the mess that we currently do. I'd imagine we'd be safe by now if he hadn't have been as stubborn and pig-headed about it. We may not have been tearing up any trees but I'd imagine we'd have a few more points on the board by now.
TP has to take responsibility for it. There is absolutely no justification for it, he needs to be accountable.
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Post by Pugsley on Apr 16, 2013 11:58:57 GMT
Pulis' head was called for at West Ham, over two years ago. A very easy FA Cup route to Wembley masked a lot of shortcomings, even then, as TP virtually stumbled on a gameplan other than his first season man-the-barricades effort. he then proceeeded to systematically rip this gameplan up, for whatever reason. The only suprises are he's lasted this long (mates in high places, eh?) and that the national media are so thick they think we're simply ungrateful JCL's. Long ball crap and siege mentalities are ok for a couple of years. You eventually get found out, but not before boring/alienating a chunk of the support.What TP has done really has taken some doing. Indeed, it would be hard to think of many more managers who could have ballsed it up so massively from such a position of strength. See Watford, Wimbledon etc
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