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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 14:18:29 GMT
Sorry Andy but it's bollocks and you're misrepresenting the position. You keep telling us that almost everyone was deliriously happy with everything up until this season. That isn't true. There were plenty of dissenting voices, certainly on here, long before we went out of Europe. The previous season, the cup final season, there were the first signs of open dissent brewing just before he got it right for the West Ham quarter final. Take the point about the first three seasons, but you also have to factor that expectations have changed. Those seasons were all about cementing us in this league by any means necessary - hence the manager's three year plan. This he did and did brilliantly, for the most part. At the end of that, we were playing some exciting football, reached the cup final, and the expectation, based on that and the three year plan talk, was that we would use that as a jumping off point for 'pushing on' and evolution. The retention of our crown jewels and spending of another £20-30m only intensified this. I don't think those expectations were unrealistics - the achievements of Swansea and West Brom on a much smaller budget confirm it. Since that time though it's become clear that all the manager is interested in is survival, even if that entails grinding our way there in the dullest way possible and finishing bottom of the tables for things that got us all into the game as kids - goals, shots, etc. To be honest, I find the idea wanting to see more of that makes me some kind of nouveau fan tarquin-come-lately pretty offensive. He's taken the club as far as he can and he's progressed from being our greatest strength to a barrier to our progress. Read that Guardian article and tell me if you find much to disagree with. I think the Guardian article is probably best read along side this one: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21857347But well done to the young man for doing his research. That's a damningly accurate snap-shot of the sad situation. Times haven't changed. They never do. People's attitudes (though that's not quite the right word) may have done. That makes it no less Girly-Arsenal-Fan and sad. We won't push on from here, Rob. Like Villa found out this year, any one of half the table can get dragged in, any year. Last year 'Castle were everyone's darlings ... now half the team is crocked and they are no better off than us. This is it. You get a Cup run every few years, you might - like the Baggies this year - frighten a few clubs for that Euro spot (like Castle did last year). If you are really lucky and really in form, you might even win the baby-cup like Swansea. You're all just suffering from Notlobitis or Fiddlesborough-Cough. No one has pushed on, not in the last ten years, not from here, not without the Russian mafia or Oil billionaires in support. Indeed, quite a few who were pushed-on are now down with us. But none of that has been my point. Gary Neville's article - and the BBC article widens it just from us and Everton, I guess - back in the OP, is and has been my point. And, especially us given how long we have until so recently been away, it is sad that we don't have the patience to wait for a bit more, when we waited so long for any at all. As Neville illustrates (and the horror on here so ironically re-justifies), Everton fans would have you believe that for all their 6-8th place finishes, life's cr4p under Moyles. It's not the football that is being discussed in the Neville article, Rob. It's the supporting.
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Post by stokiejoe on Mar 20, 2013 14:22:19 GMT
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Post by bunnyscfc on Mar 20, 2013 14:37:10 GMT
Andy, it's not about pushing on, qualifying for Europe or winning cups mate. t never has been, they are a bonus.
It is ALL aboiut mindset, tactics, wasting money, still needing at least 6 or 7 players despite spending a fortune, patronising comments, head in ths sand, unwillingness or can't change.
Your last post is way wide of the mark. You say how good The Guardian article is (and it is) yet you then disregard its findings completely. Boton or Boro or Charlton or whoever don't come into this. I simply want a team to play with tempo, hope and some level of ability. Where we finish in the league is NOT what we are about, as we will support Stoke no matter where they are in the grand scheme of things.
This team is the worst to watch in all four divisions. It doesn't pass the ball, makes very few chances and there is no hope of any excitement at all when walking to a game. Enthusiasm in all bar the biggest rimmers/myopic has all but been extinguished.
No matter what the league, manager, team etc we have, I have to have HOPE and I jhave to look forward to watching my club. At present, Stoke City bores me, utterly bores me. And even at our lowest point, it rarely did that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 14:42:44 GMT
Can only be the proverbial echo to the bunnyman here (sorry) Andy but don't twist 'pushing on' to imply people were demanding the champions league. There was no reason in the world why we couldn't make tweaks to the team that finished the cup final season and finish around the top 10 playing the same kind of fast, powerful stuff. But we didn't. We went backwards. And continue to do so.
Everyone here is a supporter and supports the team. You're asking us to lick our collective arse and call it chocolate.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 15:26:35 GMT
It's not the football that is being discussed in the Neville article, Rob (and Bunny). It's the supporting.(I got Joe the 50, so I can quote myself!)www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21857347 <---- That says over 1/3 of all league clubs have sacked their manager this season. I have news: 1/3 of all clubs do sh1t each and every season, in each and every division. Back on the previous page, if I had said, "2 out of 7 seasons has been a bit poor (though we did OK in Europe in one ...)" are you telling me it makes that much difference? Given the 5 that have come before? Do we just want to be the same as everyone else - Is that it? *********************************************************** Attention: All Media (for release no earlier than the sacking/resignation of T Pulis Hons. Esq) From: Stoke City Football Club Following on from our phenomenally successful relaunch period (2008 to some unspecified time in 2010/11 ... maybe ...) the club would like to announce that it has finally pushed on. To celebrate this occasion a new song has been written for our Supporters to chant along with. *coughs* [After 4 ... to that nogger classic, "Rock of Ages", or some such suspiciously welsh sounding nonsense ...] "We're not different, we're not different Weeeeee're not different anymooorrrre (any more) We're not different any more."The club would respectfully request that everyone now be nice to us and comment on the increased number of passes we make in each game. Liniker in particular, take note. Ends ***************************************************
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Post by bunnyscfc on Mar 20, 2013 15:47:37 GMT
The same as everyone else? If they don't spunk money away to produce mind numbing football with no joy or excitement, then yes, I'd like that ta
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2013 15:52:33 GMT
It's not the football that is being discussed in the Neville article, Rob (and Bunny). It's the supporting.(I got Joe the 50, so I can quote myself!)www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/21857347 <---- That says over 1/3 of all league clubs have sacked their manager this season. I have news: 1/3 of all clubs do sh1t each and every season, in each and every division. Back on the previous page, if I had said, "2 out of 7 seasons has been a bit poor (though we did OK in Europe in one ...)" are you telling me it makes that much difference? Given the 5 that have come before? Do we just want to be the same as everyone else - Is that it? *********************************************************** Attention: All Media (for release no earlier than the sacking/resignation of T Pulis Hons. Esq) From: Stoke City Football Club Following on from our phenomenally successful relaunch period (2008 to some unspecified time in 2010/11 ... maybe ...) the club would like to announce that it has finally pushed on. To celebrate this occasion a new song has been written for our Supporters to chant along with. *coughs* [After 4 ... to that nogger classic, "Rock of Ages", or some such suspiciously welsh sounding nonsense ...] "We're not different, we're not different Weeeeee're not different anymooorrrre (any more) We're not different any more."The club would respectfully request that everyone now be nice to us and comment on the increased number of passes we make in each game. Liniker in particular, take note. Ends *************************************************** Again, you're either missing or wilfully misrepresenting the point. I don't think anybody especially gives a fuck about how many passes we make. Managing more than one shot on target now and again is obviously the domain of Arsenal fancy dans though, so let's all shut up and eat our expensive gruel shall we? As far as 'being the same as everybody else', it's an absolutely ridiculous concept that ignores both the context of our own situation and assumes that those of all the other clubs are identical. For some of those clubs, binning the manager will have been 100% the right decision.
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Post by philm87 on Mar 20, 2013 16:57:58 GMT
This is a grreat thread.
Keep it going and lets hope the numpties don't find it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 1:45:42 GMT
The same as everyone else? If they don't spunk money away to produce mind numbing football with no joy or excitement, then yes, I'd like that ta I don't know; does everyone else spunk (some else's) money away to produce mind numbing football? If they don't, then you're laughing, Bunny ... But I did suspect this need to be loved was the route cause of all this heartfelt angst. In the past - on 'ere - we have often come over all misty-eyed, wishing we were Crewe. I remember those times as if they were yesterday ... Sad really, when worldwide perception of how our support behaved and what it appeared to stand for - you remember?, a welcome return to the past ... like going back to the 70s and all that - is what made us famous on our return from the dark corners of English football. But there you go. Somethings are, obviously, more important than how we as people, football fans and supporters of our great club represent ourselves to the wider world. Again, you're either missing or wilfully misrepresenting the point. I'm not missing your point, Rob; but you are right, I haven't been arguing it since Page-1. You just keep telling me I should be arguing your point. If I wanted to do that, I could take part in one of the other 167 threads currently live on the board. I'm arguing the point of the OP and the Gary Neville article; now backed up by the BBC article. This is a discussion about support, not football. 1/3 of English League clubs have sacked their manager. Presumably because - Chelski apart, obviously - they aren't doing very well this season (and maybe, just maybe, the season before that too). I can think of no other profession or trade (indeed, I struggle to find any other similar statistics in other sports) where 33% of the people employed to manage it get sacked - often for some arbitary judgement that the grass (this time) must definately be green under someone else's shoes. I don't think anybody especially gives a fuck about how many passes we make. Managing more than one shot on target now and again is obviously the domain of Arsenal fancy dans though, so let's all shut up and eat our expensive gruel shall we? Well, the young man who did his research so well, to produce the (moderately lauded) Guardian blog piece, seems to care about the number of passes?! And here was me just trying to keep things tidy and tie them altogether ... Sadly, that's obviously one of the bits of the article you disagreed with, Rob. Just my luck ... As far as 'being the same as everybody else', it's an absolutely ridiculous concept that ignores both the context of our own situation and assumes that those of all the other clubs are identical. For some of those clubs, binning the manager will have been 100% the right decision. Yes, for some of them it may turn out to have been the right decision, Rob. But not for us, eh And yes, my response does indeed do some ignoring of our (not really) unique and troublesome situation. We're more like Everton fans - never a barometer of uniqueness, I think? - than we are Cackburn. We're mid-table in the country's highest league, in our best run of success for a generation; Cackburn fans are rapidly headed back towards the deep and gaping pit that they escaped from when their local-boy-made-rich saved them. So across the board, situations are indeed different. What isn't different, as Master Neville so accurately pointed out, is the short term and mindless need to have something new and shiny when life gets a bit disappointing. It's like this obesity crisis wotsit (which is, at least, giving us smokers a break from persecution), people get a bit down about things and go shoving a crate of Mars bars down their neck to compensate. But though that crate of fluffy chocolate loveliness looked good to eat, in the medium to long term people find their happiness hasn't increased and they now weigh twice as much as a PMT bus.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 8:49:46 GMT
The same as everyone else? If they don't spunk money away to produce mind numbing football with no joy or excitement, then yes, I'd like that ta I don't know; does everyone else spunk (some else's) money away to produce mind numbing football? If they don't, then you're laughing, Bunny ... But I did suspect this need to be loved was the route cause of all this heartfelt angst. In the past - on 'ere - we have often come over all misty-eyed, wishing we were Crewe. I remember those times as if they were yesterday ... Sad really, when worldwide perception of how our support behaved and what it appeared to stand for - you remember?, a welcome return to the past ... like going back to the 70s and all that - is what made us famous on our return from the dark corners of English football. But there you go. Somethings are, obviously, more important than how we as people, football fans and supporters of our great club represent ourselves to the wider world. I'm not missing your point, Rob; but you are right, I haven't been arguing it since Page-1. You just keep telling me I should be arguing your point. If I wanted to do that, I could take part in one of the other 167 threads currently live on the board. I'm arguing the point of the OP and the Gary Neville article; now backed up by the BBC article. This is a discussion about support, not football. 1/3 of English League clubs have sacked their manager. Presumably because - Chelski apart, obviously - they aren't doing very well this season (and maybe, just maybe, the season before that too). I can think of no other profession or trade (indeed, I struggle to find any other similar statistics in other sports) where 33% of the people employed to manage it get sacked - often for some arbitary judgement that the grass (this time) must definately be green under someone else's shoes. Well, the young man who did his research so well, to produce the (moderately lauded) Guardian blog piece, seems to care about the number of passes?! And here was me just trying to keep things tidy and tie them altogether ... Sadly, that's obviously one of the bits of the article you disagreed with, Rob. Just my luck ... As far as 'being the same as everybody else', it's an absolutely ridiculous concept that ignores both the context of our own situation and assumes that those of all the other clubs are identical. For some of those clubs, binning the manager will have been 100% the right decision. Yes, for some of them it may turn out to have been the right decision, Rob. But not for us, eh And yes, my response does indeed do some ignoring of our (not really) unique and troublesome situation. We're more like Everton fans - never a barometer of uniqueness, I think? - than we are Cackburn. We're mid-table in the country's highest league, in our best run of success for a generation; Cackburn fans are rapidly headed back towards the deep and gaping pit that they escaped from when their local-boy-made-rich saved them. So across the board, situations are indeed different. What isn't different, as Master Neville so accurately pointed out, is the short term and mindless need to have something new and shiny when life gets a bit disappointing. It's like this obesity crisis wotsit (which is, at least, giving us smokers a break from persecution), people get a bit down about things and go shoving a crate of Mars bars down their neck to compensate. But though that crate of fluffy chocolate loveliness looked good to eat, in the medium to long term people find their happiness hasn't increased and they now weigh twice as much as a PMT bus. I don't think you even know what point you're arguing anymore, at one point telling us it's about the support, not the football, the next telling us we're all bothered about the number of passes. You can't divorce one from the other. Just let me check I get your point before I leave this one altogether. People who want to enjoy going to football again and aren't happy with the team's regression are a bunch of ingrates who just want something new and shiny? It's not Pulis' fault that the football has gone backwards and last season was actually brilliant because we got to the last 32 of the Europa League, which cancels out everything else. We should put up with another 2-3 years even if the football's like this just because, and to do otherwise would be 'being just like everybody else'. Can you pick the bones out of that for me and clarify your position a bit, just before I bow out?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 12:20:31 GMT
I mentioned the passing, Rob, because you linked me to a blog that mentioned passing and shooting. Wrongly - it appears - I assumed you were keen on passing. If only I had picked shooting, eh?
And you definately can divorce the football from the support the team playing it receives. Support can - and, I think, should be - about sticking by something when life isn't all roses. Any Girly-Arsenal-Fan can support a team that is doing well. It's when the team is not doing well that proper support is shown (or not).
1 - and even 2, even if it wasn't - poor seasons should not mean we are looking to get in a new manager. Not when it should be time for us to be showing just how grateful we are, to a manager & owner who have brought us as much success as any other partnership in the club's history. Three years, four, five ... that's how long the upside lasted; seems only fair that we grin and bare it for a similar period of time (if we have to).
It's all too easy to say you are grateful, when things are going well. It's all too easy to make banners/t-shirts and flags and lord them around as though you really mean it, while everyone is p1ssed and having a great time. It is another thing entirely to back up that claim with an actual show of gratefulness, sticking by the pair now the goings got a bit tough.
Exactly what have we done - apart from making a couple of banners - to show that we are grateful? That it wasn't just the ale talking, while we basked in the glow of success?
We haven't done anything, Rob. And not only is that Girly-Arsenal-Fan behaviour; it's sad.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Mar 21, 2013 12:29:27 GMT
I'm sure TP is consoled about lack of banners in his honour when he opens his pay packet.
Pithy banners. Aren't they a bit, re, Arsenal?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 12:39:48 GMT
I'm sure TP is consoled about lack of banners in his honour when he opens his pay packet. Ah, right. You think someone else showing gratitude is the same thing. Now I see! How could I have misunderstood for so long? It was staring me right in the face, all along. That banner, really it said, "Tony. Forever Grateful. Peter" I wish someone had made that clearer, sooner Pithy banners. Aren't they a bit, re, Arsenal? I don't understand this bit ... specifically the "re" ... Hopefully it too will be made clearer?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 12:43:09 GMT
As a Club we perhaps undersell ourselves, certainly from a fans perspective.
It's been a long time since we've been in the Top Tier and there's a still an element of "little fish, big pond" attitude and feeling to our status in the Prem.
From an outsiders point of view though, and certainly from a prospective new Managers perspective, I'd imagine we're actually a pretty big draw.
We've got a good stadium, fantastic facilities/training ground and an oustanding academy. We've got a local Chairman that understands the game, he is passionate about our club and he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is.
How many clubs in the PL tick all those boxes?
It may not be enough to see us challenge the top 4 or 6 but we're set up quite nicely right now.
We currently have a Manager that airs on the side of caution. He's still constantly looking over his shoulder, banging on about 40 points and approaching the majority of games that we play with a "lets try not to lose this one" mentality.
I'd just love a new Manager to come in and grasp the opportunity as it currently stands. A manager that realises the potential we have. A manager that is prepared to make the most of what we currently have to offer.
Just somebody who is prepared to be positive, most of all, and make a good fist of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 13:09:25 GMT
I mentioned the passing, Rob, because you linked me to a blog that mentioned passing and shooting. Wrongly - it appears - I assumed you were keen on passing. If only I had picked shooting, eh? And you definately can divorce the football from the support the team playing it receives. Support can - and, I think, should be - about sticking by something when life isn't all roses. Any Girly-Arsenal-Fan can support a team that is doing well. It's when the team is not doing well that proper support is shown (or not). 1 - and even 2, even if it wasn't - poor seasons should not mean we are looking to get in a new manager. Not when it should be time for us to be showing just how grateful we are, to a manager & owner who have brought us as much success as any other partnership in the club's history. Three years, four, five ... that's how long the upside lasted; seems only fair that we grin and bare it for a similar period of time (if we have to). It's all too easy to say you are grateful, when things are going well. It's all too easy to make banners/t-shirts and flags and lord them around as though you really mean it, while everyone is p1ssed and having a great time. It is another thing entirely to back up that claim with an actual show of gratefulness, sticking by the pair now the goings got a bit tough. Exactly what have we done - apart from making a couple of banners - to show that we are grateful? That it wasn't just the ale talking, while we basked in the glow of success? We haven't done anything, Rob. And not only is that Girly-Arsenal-Fan behaviour; it's sad. 'Shooting' would have been more apt since it's a big part of the problem yes, along with 'creating' and 'scoring'. Obviously wanting to see the expensively assembled team I support do more of these things is the height of decadence. Prawn sandwich please! I really don't need the lecture on support, thanks - I've renewed my season ticket, I was going a long time before TP was even a twinkle in Gunnar Gislason's eye and God willing I'll be going a long time after TP leaves as well. I won't be not 'sticking by' Stoke City - I'd be there whatever league we were in. As far as a show of gratitude goes, you seem to be suggesting we should give him the same number of shit years' leeway as he's had good years? That isn't how football works. I dare say TP will get a statue one day outside the ground and rightly so, and I AM grateful and forever will be to TP for a marvellous job done. I just don't think it's at all practical or sane to suggest the best way of expressing that is to give him a free pass to fuck up the team and bore the arse off us for time immemorial. Everything and everybody has a shelf life.
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Post by thebet365 on Mar 21, 2013 13:32:36 GMT
Exactly what have we done - apart from making a couple of banners - to show that we are grateful? That it wasn't just the ale talking, while we basked in the glow of success? We haven't done anything, Rob. And not only is that Girly-Arsenal-Fan behaviour; it's sad. When we came up and knew we were up against the odds we became the noisiest supporters in the league. That was us doing our bit for the club, the team needed us because we were building from scratch. The last 18 months have been nothing but backwards, dour, defensive, do not concede at all costs tactical crap. We've invested rather heavily yet still play the same little owd stoke tactics that needs their 12th man to help them through it. Your right TP has earned more than enough to be given time but just how much more should he be given ? 18 months we have been poor, the same problems in the squad are there as in the last 5 years, no left back, No established right back, no left wing competition, a right wing that is taken up by about 10 different players over the season. He has 1 tactic which has served him quite well all his career, but If he's gonna stick with it, then he's got to stop spending money on skillful players to tease us with only to sit them on the bench and stick with his usual suspects. I would rather he stay and allow us to play a bit more but we all know he's just not willing to risk anything. We laud Bego, Shawcross & Huth as top top players, so why doesn't the manager trust em enough by playing another 6 defensive players around them ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 13:38:25 GMT
'Shooting' would have been more apt since it's a big part of the problem yes, along with 'creating' and 'scoring'. Obviously wanting to see the expensively assembled team I support do more of these things is the height of decadence. Prawn sandwich please! I really don't need the lecture on support, thanks - I've renewed my season ticket, I was going a long time before TP was even a twinkle in Gunnar Gislason's eye and God willing I'll be going a long time after TP leaves as well. I won't be not 'sticking by' Stoke City - I'd be there whatever league we were in. As far as a show of gratitude goes, you seem to be suggesting we should give him the same number of shit years' leeway as he's had good years? That isn't how football works. I dare say TP will get a statue one day outside the ground and rightly so, and I AM grateful and forever will be to TP for a marvellous job done. I just don't think it's at all practical or sane to suggest the best way of expressing that is to give him a free pass to fuck up the team and bore the arse off us for time immemorial. Everything and everybody has a shelf life. That isn't how football works.Yes, but that's just a rehash of "We're not different anymore", Rob. There's no reason why it can't work that way ... No reason other than people's ability to stick it out a bit longer, in return for what we have had. I'll be honest and say I know I'm not arguing from a postition widely held, in this age of bogs, facepalm and tvvater. Our disposable society means most people want shut of stuff that they are no longer happy with faster than they picked it up in the first place. But I do find it especially galling that - apparently - most of the 7000 who watched us in L1 - when it was so bad we had to kid ourselves it was worth turning up just for the beer, pies and craic - can't find it in them to show a bit more. I remember all the promises we made, the day after the Leceister game ... that we wouldn't forget, we wouldn't become billy-bigtime. Sadly, as with so many other things that are easy to say ... We dunner seem to have lasted very long with those intensions, do we? And I don't think you are correct with the statue. I would be amazed if any manager of ours was given one ... Waddo remains statueless; and if he can't get one, no one else will. (I also think, until he's shuffled off this Earth at least, Our Tone would refuse one. He doesn't strike me as a statue kind of bloke ... just a bloke who picks some statues )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 13:49:24 GMT
'Shooting' would have been more apt since it's a big part of the problem yes, along with 'creating' and 'scoring'. Obviously wanting to see the expensively assembled team I support do more of these things is the height of decadence. Prawn sandwich please! I really don't need the lecture on support, thanks - I've renewed my season ticket, I was going a long time before TP was even a twinkle in Gunnar Gislason's eye and God willing I'll be going a long time after TP leaves as well. I won't be not 'sticking by' Stoke City - I'd be there whatever league we were in. As far as a show of gratitude goes, you seem to be suggesting we should give him the same number of shit years' leeway as he's had good years? That isn't how football works. I dare say TP will get a statue one day outside the ground and rightly so, and I AM grateful and forever will be to TP for a marvellous job done. I just don't think it's at all practical or sane to suggest the best way of expressing that is to give him a free pass to fuck up the team and bore the arse off us for time immemorial. Everything and everybody has a shelf life. That isn't how football works.Yes, but that's just a rehash of "We're not different anymore", Rob. There's no reason why it can't work that way ... No reason other than people's ability to stick it out a bit longer, in return for what we have had. I'll be honest and say I know I'm not arguing from a postition widely held, in this age of bogs, facepalm and tvvater. Our disposable society means most people want shut of stuff that they are no longer happy with faster than they picked it up in the first place. But I do find it especially galling that - apparently - most of the 7000 who watched us in L1 - when it was so bad we had to kid ourselves it was worth turning up just for the beer, pies and craic - can't find it in them to show a bit more. I remember all the promises we made, the day after the Leceister game ... that we wouldn't forget, we wouldn't become billy-bigtime. Sadly, as with so many other things that are easy to say ... We dunner seem to have lasted very long with those intensions, do we? And I don't think you are correct with the statue. I would be amazed if any manager of ours was given one ... Waddo remains statueless; and if he can't get one, no one else will. (I also think, until he's shuffled off this Earth at least, Our Tone would refuse one. He doesn't strike me as a statue kind of bloke ... just a bloke who picks some statues ) You're going to have to explain to me this concept of us being 'different'. Compared to who? In what way? Why is it billy big time to not want to see your team needlessly regress? Or to want to enjoy watching your team rather than see it fail to manage a shot on target in 90 minutes at home or cross the halfway line away? None of the above are in any way 'new' concepts in football that didn't exist before Facebook etc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 14:12:17 GMT
... We've invested rather heavily yet still play the same little owd stoke tactics that needs their 12th man to help them through it. Your right TP has earned more than enough to be given time but just how much more should he be given ? 18 months we have been poor, the same problems in the squad are there as in the last 5 years, no left back, No established right back, no left wing competition, a right wing that is taken up by about 10 different players over the season. He has 1 tactic which has served him quite well all his career, but If he's gonna stick with it, then he's got to stop spending money on skillful players to tease us with only to sit them on the bench and stick with his usual suspects. I would rather he stay and allow us to play a bit more but we all know he's just not willing to risk anything. We laud Bego, Shawcross & Huth as top top players, so why doesn't the manager trust em enough by playing another 6 defensive players around them ? They will always need us, brit. Some games more than others, some seasons more than others. We are the club. Without us there is nothing. As Villa - a club that has been stable in this league for yonks - this year shows, it can go pear-shaped for anyone - and very quickly - and when it does owners/manager/players/fans need to stick together and claw their way out of it. In no way am I suggesting it has been an easy watch for the last 12 months (I'm never going to agree with the 18 months, not with the UEFA campaign), but this is the time for us to repay (to everyone involved) what has been done for us. And I agree that Our Tone does seem to have lost his way a bit. I think Liniker and Co got under his skin and he tried to come up with a slightly different type of game. I don't think that was needed and I don't think too many other Stokies do, either. What we wanted was a better version of Pulisball; faster, fitter, stronger. A new (better) Fuller, a new rock in the center to replace RoArY ... The sooner Our Tone goes back to what works, the better for everyone. You're going to have to explain to me this concept of us being 'different'. Compared to who? In what way? Why is it billy big time to not want to see your team needlessly regress? Or to want to enjoy watching your team rather than see it fail to manage a shot on target in 90 minutes at home or cross the halfway line away? None of the above are in any way 'new' concepts in football that didn't exist before Facebook etc. We - the support, not the team - were different to almost anything seen in the Premier League before, Rob. That's why all of the media made such a fuss about us. In spite of the nogger our team played. Back to the 70s and all that. And that is, I think, why many of those same media-types are reacting with such horror now; because we've started to show we aren't actually all that different. I think a lot of them feel cheated by us. We're still supposed to be sticking two fingers up to everyone; not crying that we just want to be loved too. Billy BigtimeAnd, again, it's nothing to do with the football. After Leicester we weren't promising world+dog that we would play good nogger, we were promising we wouldn't forget who we were. We wouldn't become plastic, as we had charged just about every set of Premier League fans with, before we joined them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 14:13:35 GMT
You make some very good points Andy, and it's hard to disagree with a lot of what you say.
I'm sure I was one of the fans that said he'd never become "billy-bigtime" (as you put it) after the Leicester game 5 years ago. Frustration and disappointment has got the better of me though.
Maybe I lack patience or loyalty but I have tried to remain as positive as I can and didn't jump straight to the "Pulis out" opinion as soon as results didn't start going our way.
The problem is, football is an emotive support and it's difficult not to sway from one feeling to another when you are so passionate about the subject matter in hand.
I was, after the Leicester game, ready to give Pulis a key to the city. If you'd have said to me back then "You'll still be in the Prem 5 years from now but you'll want him out" I'd have argued with you until the cows came home that I wouldn't. In fact, I'd have gone further and said if that was the case, I'd be the first to defend him against any such calls.
The problem is, you have to draw the line somewhere and I've just had enough now. I haven't lost any respect for Tony and I still fully appreciate the job he has done. Some people seem to think if you want a new manager in the Summer that you have somehow forgotten what he has done for the club or become unthankful for it, but that is far from the truth.
If this was a transitional period we were going through then I'd be more than happy to give him time to continue. If I could see the direction he was taking us and I could see the bigger picture of where we were headed, I'd like to think I'd be more patient. It doesn't feel like a transitional period though. The majority of signings seem to either not be good enough or completely unsuited to the system Pulis insists on playing.
I don't see the plan for where Pulis is trying to take us. I see the current squad as a bit of a mess, with the odd few exceptions, and I don't see any reason to believe that it will get better over the Summer and into next Season.
In my opinion, we are heading in a downward spiral. I appreciate, and admire, your point that we should give him more time and he will turn it around. I just can't agree with it. The best we can hope for is another brief spell of good results and performances at some point. We seem to throw a spell in like that every now and then, which raises hopes, only to revert back to type. That isn't enough for me anymore.
Maybe I'm being greedy or maybe my expectations have gone too high, but that is the way I feel, whether it is right or wrong.
Barring the odd game here and there, I'm just not enjoying it anymore. I want more positivity from our Manager and he seems unwilling to give it. I don't want to see us playing like Swansea or Arsenal, I don't expect us to finish in the top 4 or 6 and I don't expect us to roll teams over 4 or 5 nil, week in, week out. I just want to see us taking the initiative in games and bringing some enjoyment back to Matchdays.
It's just too expensive a luxury to have zero levels of entertainment. I just want to enjoy it again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 14:22:09 GMT
... We've invested rather heavily yet still play the same little owd stoke tactics that needs their 12th man to help them through it. Your right TP has earned more than enough to be given time but just how much more should he be given ? 18 months we have been poor, the same problems in the squad are there as in the last 5 years, no left back, No established right back, no left wing competition, a right wing that is taken up by about 10 different players over the season. He has 1 tactic which has served him quite well all his career, but If he's gonna stick with it, then he's got to stop spending money on skillful players to tease us with only to sit them on the bench and stick with his usual suspects. I would rather he stay and allow us to play a bit more but we all know he's just not willing to risk anything. We laud Bego, Shawcross & Huth as top top players, so why doesn't the manager trust em enough by playing another 6 defensive players around them ? They will always need us, brit. Some games more than others, some seasons more than others. We are the club. Without us there is nothing. As Villa - a club that has been stable in this league for yonks - this year shows, it can go pear-shaped for anyone - and very quickly - and when it does owners/manager/players/fans need to stick together and claw their way out of it. In no way am I suggesting it has been an easy watch for the last 12 months (I'm never going to agree with the 18 months, not with the UEFA campaign), but this is the time for us to repay (to everyone involved) what has been done for us. And I agree that Our Tone does seem to have lost his way a bit. I think Liniker and Co got under his skin and he tried to come up with a slightly different type of game. I don't think that was needed and I don't think too many other Stokies do, either. What we wanted was a better version of Pulisball; faster, fitter, stronger. A new (better) Fuller, a new rock in the center to replace RoArY ... The sooner Our Tone goes back to what works, the better for everyone. You're going to have to explain to me this concept of us being 'different'. Compared to who? In what way? Why is it billy big time to not want to see your team needlessly regress? Or to want to enjoy watching your team rather than see it fail to manage a shot on target in 90 minutes at home or cross the halfway line away? None of the above are in any way 'new' concepts in football that didn't exist before Facebook etc. We - the support, not the team - were different to almost anything seen in the Premier League before, Rob. That's why all of the media made such a fuss about us. In spite of the nogger our team played. Back to the 70s and all that. And that is, I think, why many of those same media-types are reacting with such horror now; because we've started to show we aren't actually all that different. I think a lot of them feel cheated by us. We're still supposed to be sticking two fingers up to everyone; not crying that we just want to be loved too. Billy BigtimeAnd, again, it's nothing to do with the football. After Leicester we weren't promising world+dog that we would play good nogger, we were promising we wouldn't forget who we were. We wouldn't become plastic, as we had charged just about every set of Premier League fans with, before we joined them. Andy - it's got sod all to do with wanting to be loved. It's to do with being bored shitless with the tripe we have to watch every single week. I don't buy for a second that we were unlike anything seen before, but even taking that at face value, it had everything to do with being written off as already down and the battling and siege mentality. But since then we've spent a lot of money and we're established, yet the football has got worse. It's a symbiotic relationship between what happens on the pitch and in the stands and it's hard to be 'roused' when you're defending a 1-0 deficit as we did at Fulham, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 14:40:48 GMT
Andy - it's got sod all to do with wanting to be loved. It's to do with being bored shitless with the tripe we have to watch every single week. I don't buy for a second that we were unlike anything seen before, but even taking that at face value, it had everything to do with being written off as already down and the battling and siege mentality. But since then we've spent a lot of money and we're established, yet the football has got worse. It's a symbiotic relationship between what happens on the pitch and in the stands and it's hard to be 'roused' when you're defending a 1-0 deficit as we did at Fulham, for example. I don't buy for a second ...I'm not sure whether we are different or not, Rob. I kind of flip-flop 'tween one and the other. But I don't think all of this is helping show up any unique qualities we do have, let me put it that way. But the media (worldwide) did think we were different, even while thinking that we were a certainty to go straight back down. For me, that was the very best part of it all. It wasn't our millionaire players and their fancy skills, or our over-media-friendly manager and his tictacs that was getting all the plaudits; it was us and the noise we can make and the passion that it shows (and, in a strange way, we were loved then). I'm not suggesting it's an easy thing to do, Rob. Indeed, I've written several times that I know it is not. Nevermind roused, trust me it's been extremely difficult just to stay awake through games like Fulham. I don't know if you have show-signitures turned on, on here? But every post I make, I make the point (in a polite way) that is has been f**king garbage. I'm saying, if we are different, if we meant what we said when we first came up (and since, at the Cup Final and so forth), then we should be sticking by what has brought us to this lofty position now things aren't as rosey as they were. It wunner last forever, Rob, one way or the other. Saint Peter will see to that.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 21, 2013 14:41:01 GMT
Agree totally Rob.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 14:49:09 GMT
Andy - it's got sod all to do with wanting to be loved. It's to do with being bored shitless with the tripe we have to watch every single week. I don't buy for a second that we were unlike anything seen before, but even taking that at face value, it had everything to do with being written off as already down and the battling and siege mentality. But since then we've spent a lot of money and we're established, yet the football has got worse. It's a symbiotic relationship between what happens on the pitch and in the stands and it's hard to be 'roused' when you're defending a 1-0 deficit as we did at Fulham, for example. I don't buy for a second ...I'm not sure whether we are different or not, Rob. I kind of flip-flop 'tween one and the other. But I don't think all of this is helping show up any unique qualities we do have, let me put it that way. But the media (worldwide) did think we were different, even while thinking that we were a certainty to go straight back down. For me, that was the very best part of it all. It wasn't our millionaire players and their fancy skills, or our over-media-friendly manager and his tictacs that was getting all the plaudits; it was us and the noise we can make and the passion that it shows (and, in a strange way, we were loved then). I'm not suggesting it's an easy thing to do, Rob. Indeed, I've written several times that I know it is not. Nevermind roused, trust me it's been extremely difficult just to stay awake through games like Fulham. I don't know if you have show-signitures turned on, on here? But every post I make, I make the point (in a polite way) that is has been f**king garbage. I'm saying, if we are different, if we meant what we said when we first came up (and since, at the Cup Final and so forth), then we should be sticking by what has brought us to this lofty position now things aren't as rosey as they were. It wunner last forever, Rob, one way or the other. Saint Peter will see to that. What who said? Everyone is behind the team Andy, Saturday showed that - they will be whoever the manager is.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 15:01:29 GMT
You make some very good points Andy, and it's hard to disagree with a lot of what you say. I'm sure I was one of the fans that said he'd never become "billy-bigtime" (as you put it) after the Leicester game 5 years ago. Frustration and disappointment has got the better of me though. Maybe I lack patience or loyalty but I have tried to remain as positive as I can and didn't jump straight to the "Pulis out" opinion as soon as results didn't start going our way. The problem is, football is an emotive support and it's difficult not to sway from one feeling to another when you are so passionate about the subject matter in hand. I was, after the Leicester game, ready to give Pulis a key to the city. If you'd have said to me back then "You'll still be in the Prem 5 years from now but you'll want him out" I'd have argued with you until the cows came home that I wouldn't. In fact, I'd have gone further and said if that was the case, I'd be the first to defend him against any such calls. The problem is, you have to draw the line somewhere and I've just had enough now. I haven't lost any respect for Tony and I still fully appreciate the job he has done. Some people seem to think if you want a new manager in the Summer that you have somehow forgotten what he has done for the club or become unthankful for it, but that is far from the truth. If this was a transitional period we were going through then I'd be more than happy to give him time to continue. If I could see the direction he was taking us and I could see the bigger picture of where we were headed, I'd like to think I'd be more patient. It doesn't feel like a transitional period though. The majority of signings seem to either not be good enough or completely unsuited to the system Pulis insists on playing. I don't see the plan for where Pulis is trying to take us. I see the current squad as a bit of a mess, with the odd few exceptions, and I don't see any reason to believe that it will get better over the Summer and into next Season. In my opinion, we are heading in a downward spiral. I appreciate, and admire, your point that we should give him more time and he will turn it around. I just can't agree with it. The best we can hope for is another brief spell of good results and performances at some point. We seem to throw a spell in like that every now and then, which raises hopes, only to revert back to type. That isn't enough for me anymore. Maybe I'm being greedy or maybe my expectations have gone too high, but that is the way I feel, whether it is right or wrong. Barring the odd game here and there, I'm just not enjoying it anymore. I want more positivity from our Manager and he seems unwilling to give it. I don't want to see us playing like Swansea or Arsenal, I don't expect us to finish in the top 4 or 6 and I don't expect us to roll teams over 4 or 5 nil, week in, week out. I just want to see us taking the initiative in games and bringing some enjoyment back to Matchdays. It's just too expensive a luxury to have zero levels of entertainment. I just want to enjoy it again. That's a good post, mate. I do understand your feelings. Like I've written in reply to Rob, I'm not saying it's easy. And I am also not saying we should put up with it until we are all old and grey (or dead, for those of us on here who are already old and grey/bald) But I don't think - as hard as it has often been to accept for the last 12 months - That we should be at the get-rid-now point just yet. If Our Tone had done nothing for us, if we had already been a PL team when he arrived, then I would be less concerned that we show him the thanks he deserves (with more than a banner). But - other than Saint Peter - he is the man most responsible for getting us here. And, for me at least, if I am to hold my head up when I go out doors I want to be able to say that I supported him when he needed it. (and damn, he needs it now) What who said? Everyone is behind the team Andy, Saturday showed that - they will be whoever the manager is. If you mean you didn't express a desire to stay true to where we had come from, when we were promoted, then my apologies for including you in that. I know I was posting it on here and I know I read many other people expressing similar sentiments. I don't think I've once said people aren't behind the team, Rob. We were behind the team when we were playing The Dog & Duck in the Small-Time Cup. We are the club, Rob. If we aren't supporting the 11 out on the pitch on a Satdee then there would be - and would deserve to be - no club. This is about supporting the manager. Just like the team, he f**ks up sometimes, but he's done more than enough to deserve our support for longer than we are apparently willing to give it.
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Post by Stretfordpotterer on Mar 21, 2013 15:26:50 GMT
Make a list of every team relegated from the premier league since it's inception. How many don't fall into one or more of the below categories
1, potless 2, run like a circus 3, not established yet 4, rapid withdrawl of funds and player sales
Yet Pulis has kept a team that falls into none of those categories on relegation form for over a calender year.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2013 15:39:04 GMT
You make some very good points Andy, and it's hard to disagree with a lot of what you say. I'm sure I was one of the fans that said he'd never become "billy-bigtime" (as you put it) after the Leicester game 5 years ago. Frustration and disappointment has got the better of me though. Maybe I lack patience or loyalty but I have tried to remain as positive as I can and didn't jump straight to the "Pulis out" opinion as soon as results didn't start going our way. The problem is, football is an emotive support and it's difficult not to sway from one feeling to another when you are so passionate about the subject matter in hand. I was, after the Leicester game, ready to give Pulis a key to the city. If you'd have said to me back then "You'll still be in the Prem 5 years from now but you'll want him out" I'd have argued with you until the cows came home that I wouldn't. In fact, I'd have gone further and said if that was the case, I'd be the first to defend him against any such calls. The problem is, you have to draw the line somewhere and I've just had enough now. I haven't lost any respect for Tony and I still fully appreciate the job he has done. Some people seem to think if you want a new manager in the Summer that you have somehow forgotten what he has done for the club or become unthankful for it, but that is far from the truth. If this was a transitional period we were going through then I'd be more than happy to give him time to continue. If I could see the direction he was taking us and I could see the bigger picture of where we were headed, I'd like to think I'd be more patient. It doesn't feel like a transitional period though. The majority of signings seem to either not be good enough or completely unsuited to the system Pulis insists on playing. I don't see the plan for where Pulis is trying to take us. I see the current squad as a bit of a mess, with the odd few exceptions, and I don't see any reason to believe that it will get better over the Summer and into next Season. In my opinion, we are heading in a downward spiral. I appreciate, and admire, your point that we should give him more time and he will turn it around. I just can't agree with it. The best we can hope for is another brief spell of good results and performances at some point. We seem to throw a spell in like that every now and then, which raises hopes, only to revert back to type. That isn't enough for me anymore. Maybe I'm being greedy or maybe my expectations have gone too high, but that is the way I feel, whether it is right or wrong. Barring the odd game here and there, I'm just not enjoying it anymore. I want more positivity from our Manager and he seems unwilling to give it. I don't want to see us playing like Swansea or Arsenal, I don't expect us to finish in the top 4 or 6 and I don't expect us to roll teams over 4 or 5 nil, week in, week out. I just want to see us taking the initiative in games and bringing some enjoyment back to Matchdays. It's just too expensive a luxury to have zero levels of entertainment. I just want to enjoy it again. That's a good post, mate. I do understand your feelings. Like I've written in reply to Rob, I'm not saying it's easy. And I am also not saying we should put up with it until we are all old and grey (or dead, for those of us on here who are already old and grey/bald) But I don't think - as hard as it has often been to accept for the last 12 months - That we should be at the get-rid-now point just yet. If Our Tone had done nothing for us, if we had already been a PL team when he arrived, then I would be less concerned that we show him the thanks he deserves (with more than a banner). But - other than Saint Peter - he is the man most responsible for getting us here. And, for me at least, if I am to hold my head up when I go out doors I want to be able to say that I supported him when he needed it. (and damn, he needs it now) What who said? Everyone is behind the team Andy, Saturday showed that - they will be whoever the manager is. If you mean you didn't express a desire to stay true to where we had come from, when we were promoted, then my apologies for including you in that. I know I was posting it on here and I know I read many other people expressing similar sentiments. I don't think I've once said people aren't behind the team, Rob. We were behind the team when we were playing The Dog & Duck in the Small-Time Cup. We are the club, Rob. If we aren't supporting the 11 out on the pitch on a Satdee then there would be - and would deserve to be - no club. This is about supporting the manager. Just like the team, he f**ks up sometimes, but he's done more than enough to deserve our support for longer than we are apparently willing to give it. What exactly does 'be true to where we came from' mean Andy? What is it manifested in? It seems like a meaningless phrase designed to portray anyone sick of the manager as some jumped up Johnny Come Lately. It's not clear over the course of your posts whether you mean supporting the club or the manager - the one a few posts up about 'sticking by' stuff suggested you were on about the club. As far as the manager goes, I was one of the most pro-Pulis people on here. I supported him during his first spell, I believed he could get us promoted, I believed he could keep us up, I believed he could evolve our play. Where I have lost faith is that the current situation - and the bad runs we've had - are problems entirely of his own making. It's his squad, they're mostly if not all his signings, he picks the team, he sets the tactics, and he's the one persisting with what clearly isn't working and publicly blathering on about luck when Stevie Wonder can see it runs deeper than that. It's not like an Adkins situation where he wasn't given time to establish the side or a Hughton situation of falling foul of the owner. He's done amazingly well but he's hit the wall of his abilities. That being the case I don't see why it's heresy or billy big time to want to see a change or where we're not 'being true to where we've come from'. It's more a case of the end of one well-loved chapter and the start of a new one.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 1:45:46 GMT
Make a list of every team relegated from the premier league since it's inception. How many don't fall into one or more of the below categories 1, potless 2, run like a circus 3, not established yet 4, rapid withdrawl of funds and player sales Yet Pulis has kept a team that falls into none of those categories on relegation form for over a calender year. Interesting analysis. Right now, I would say we were No3. We spent 23 years away from the big-time and (almost) 5 years back in it. I'd like to see that ratio halved, before I started to believe this is where we'll be for the forseeable. And - this is why I think it's an interesting analysis you did - we have been all of the other three at some point in my life time (over the last 40-odd years). What a well rounded club we are What exactly does 'be true to where we came from' mean Andy? What is it manifested in? It seems like a meaningless phrase designed to portray anyone sick of the manager as some jumped up Johnny Come Lately. League 1, Rob. That's where we came from. Outside the big-time, not one of the Billy's. (Most of us) Professing our determination to remember not to join the plastics we accused most PL fans of being, before we were resurrected. So, in this case, haiving a bit more about us than jumping on the change-the-manager bandwagon (like 30-odd other English league clubs this season). It's not clear over the course of your posts whether you mean supporting the club or the manager - the one a few posts up about 'sticking by' stuff suggested you were on about the club. Then in future, I need to try harder to express myself better, Rob. We are the club. Our support of it is the only reason it exists. The idea that we could all chuck it in and go support Crewe instead always has seemed to me like a bit of a daft notion. If there is no us, there is no club. So our support of it is a given; or it would not be here. If we all walked off, the only people to be hurt would be us. Players and staff would all be elsewhere in football (in our case, our owner is a Stokie) As far as the manager goes, I was one of the most pro-Pulis people on here. I supported him during his first spell, I believed he could get us promoted, I believed he could keep us up, I believed he could evolve our play. Where I have lost faith is that the current situation - and the bad runs we've had - are problems entirely of his own making. It's his squad, they're mostly if not all his signings, he picks the team, he sets the tactics, and he's the one persisting with what clearly isn't working and publicly blathering on about luck when Stevie Wonder can see it runs deeper than that. Our Tone's interview technique has always been a bit ... irritating ... I always assume what he is saying in public he is saying for the press and it is completely different to what he says in private to players/staff. And, as I replied to something OS posted ages ago, he can be far too Stokie for his own good. And there is nothing - in the eys of Stokies - worse than a non-Stokie trying it on. Bad runs:We - and every other club - will always go on bad runs, Rob. Even if we get Sir Red Nose down here to end his career managing a proper-club, we will still go on bad runs. Obviously that depends to an extent on how you define a bad run ... whether it's the number of passes, the number of goals, the number of shots, the number of victories, the number of points, the position in the pyramid ... But - whichever - we'll be going on one of those runs when me, you and Our Tone are long dead and buried. That's just another reason why us panicking now is a bit ... unseemly. It's not like an Adkins situation where he wasn't given time to establish the side or a Hughton situation of falling foul of the owner. He's done amazingly well but he's hit the wall of his abilities. That being the case I don't see why it's heresy or billy big time to want to see a change or where we're not 'being true to where we've come from'. It's more a case of the end of one well-loved chapter and the start of a new one. Has he hit the wall though, Rob? Saint Peter doesn't appear to think so (although who knows whether he's already robbed Trouser's AXE out of his shed and is busy sharpening-away while he waits for mid-May). Our Tone could help us win the FA Cup next season ... Who knows ... I don't think we've given him enough time to find out, if we get rid now (obviously whether someone else thinks the same depends on how long that someone thinks we've been unacceptably rubbish). Do we carry on Rob, or are we going to settle for a polite and well-argued 147 from both sides of the fence?(and just in case we do settle for this; cheers to those who contributed to this topic , best discussion I've had on 'ere in yonks
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2013 9:36:43 GMT
Andy,
First of all, I obviously missed a mass 'pinkie swear' session somewhere - IMO it's incredibly naive and unfair to expect Stoke fans to be somehow 'different' to other football fans.
Second, I think you've totally misrepresented the reasons people are unhappy. It's nothing to do with wanting to be loved and it's grossly unfair to characterise anyone losing faith in the manager as a 'plastic'. I'm as pragmatic as they come and accept results, for the most part, come first, but I live football and want to see my team involved in at least the basic objectives of it - which we haven't been for a fair old while now. We all got into the game because of goals, skill, moments - and this season and last season these have become few and far between when we should have seen more. You're suggesting I should pipe down and eat my gruel anyway and like it. That I owe it to the manager to be bored and miserable of a weekend for another 2-3 seasons. I don't understand that logic.
Let's not pretend sacking managers is just a fad - for every Blackburn or Southampton or Reading there's a situation where change was entirely the right call - Hughes had to go at QPR, Solbakken had to go at Wolves.
Every team does go on bad runs but the context of this one suggests it isn't a blip; it's prolonged decline borne entirely of mismanagement. Tony Pulis was a leading architect of the good times and deserves the credit. He's now the architect of decline and the blame equally resides with him.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Mar 22, 2013 11:37:51 GMT
Good arguments on both sides on here, but Andy has articulated exactly my sentiments.
It's easy to support the team and manager when things are going well. It's when things are tough that loyal support really matters. I think we owe Tony Pulis the respect, time and patience to sort the squad and the team out.
I agree with Homzy that it's form and results that are really fuelling the current discontent. We're on a shocking run, but I don't buy this 2 years worth either. After the Europa League we fizzled out in the league, but the first 10 or so fixtures of this season were so tough, we had little choice but to scrap for points in certain games. We put in a great run before Christmas, culminating in the demolition of Liverpool and the spirited 10 man comeback against Southampton.
It's this last 11 games that's really made it tough.
I also don't agree that it's all Tony's fault. Etherington has been carrying injuries for months; Pennant has left the manager with no choice; whatever they say, Owen has been constantly injured and Adam's bereavement has been a factor over that period; Palacios has been a disastrous signing and Kightly hasn't settled. Not sure any of those problems can be laid directly at the manager's door.
I've argued before that changing things is a slow and difficult process that doesn't always work out as you had hoped straightaway.
It seems to me that there are a number of problems to be sorted out in the summer, and the opportunity to start putting it right again. There is no evidence to say TP has reached his ceiling. He's built teams that have delivered before, so why can't he do it again?
Andy's comments are a reflection on modern society as well as football supporters. We all demand instant gratification, all the time. Sadly life's just not like that. Stick together in the hard times and we'll appreciate the good times even more.
I'm a Stoke City supporter who recognises the progress the club has made and backs the current set up (ie Peter Coates and Tony Pulis) to continue that development. I am certain that PC will keep faith with Tony, not just for stability, but also because he trusts and believes that he's a decent guy that is having a tough time, but that he's got the right man for the job.
This is my opinion only, and I'm not knocking anybody who is fed up of the football, because it hasn't been great and I understand your doubts. It's probably an old fashioned view, but now is the time to stand up, hold our nerves and show some true support.
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