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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 9:02:38 GMT
Pulis was the right man to lay the the foundations of Stoke City's metaphorical Town Hall. However, to make it more ornate and move it on from being a hard shell of stability we need a true artizan. Someone who can start to carve beautiful shapes out of the rough stone framework.
Pulis is a builder but he doesn't know how to give us that artistic touch of brillance which makes us a buiding to admire. Whilst Pulis is in charge we will always be waiting for our Town Hall to be finished.
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Post by adamsson on Mar 17, 2013 9:22:34 GMT
The usual lazy ignorant churlnalists approach to football management
They always point to ManU and say they been successful because they have stuck with Ferguson. But everyone knows that is not true, they have stuck with Ferguson because they have been successful if they finished 5th one year he would be out the door. Oh they would have to let him retire and be nice about it but he would be gone. The same is true of Wenger only is target to make a profit, The football has suffered but the bank balance has done well.
Now if we look at Stoke we have spent big money every year but are playing worse football than we have since the binary season. The squad is aging and full of players who the manager brought but does not know how to use. We have an academy structure but no player in the academy has a hope of making it to the first team because Pulis has no interest in developing players.
If you are close to a club you can see when things are going wrong and when the manager has run out of ideas and then to maintain stability he should be changed
Things are going wrong at Stoke and Pulis has run out of ideas. He needs to go at the end of the season. Pulis out
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 9:42:52 GMT
Thanks for the link, Joe. An article mirrored by the future-supporters one, on here (and maybe 1,000,000 others over the last few months ) Intestinal Fortitude: being willing suck it up now, in anticipation of what is (hopefully) to come. Sadly, not a characteristic that has survived the Age of Spazbook. I thought the Town Hall analogy was well done ... I drive past one of those 6p modern-churches, most mornings and am always thinking, they dunner build em like they used to(We'd never win a war now ... I remember when it was all fields rind 'ere ... and so forth ) Andy, why are we in a position to even need to 'suck it up' and what evidence is there to suggest there's better to come? A few times, Rob, I've seen you ask, "How long should he be allowed to dine out on history". Each time I have answered and asked you the same question back; but the post has normally disappeared off the page by the time you are awake and so you've never replied. For me, this is the same thing, the article says that GN prefers clubs with stability, rather than a "I want it now ... something different ... something new" attitude. For the record, I don't think anywhere near 1 year, 1 month and four days is long enough to want out a manager who has brought the club so much. I think end of season 2015, if we are still the same club then as we are now, would be more like long enough. I'll happily suffer 3 years of this garbage, in return for what Our Tone has brought us (and I'll happily buy his steak and chips during that time). The evidence that I have for why it can be better is those earlier years. Promotion to the PL, an FA Cup Final that bought me 12,000 miles back home and a euro-campaign that I never ever, in my wildest dreams, thought we would have (my biggest regret with no longer being at home is that I missed the chance to go on those trips, I'll regret that forever). So, like I say, I think this is all about how long someone is prepared to repay - with a bit of faith and a bit of sucking it up - Our Tone for what he has done. You're right to say no one has to, not in this day and age, but I conner bring myself to be like that (I reckon it's me age?) (and yeah, me and you could have done it too ... but we didn't, he did)
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Post by FullerMagic on Mar 17, 2013 9:45:30 GMT
So it's always better to stay together for the sake of the kids? What a load of horseshit from old Nev. Stability for stability's sake and we go on with our porridge (sorry, steak and chips) in perpetuity.
Clearly blinded by his experiences with Fergie, who is unique, and uniquely successful into the bargain.
And I can't understand how we're grouped in with Everton, who continue to over-achieve on a mid-table wage budget of £63m, compared to all their perceived top 6 peers, who have double that.
Since Dec 11 (51 games) they've got more points than Chelsea and Spurs - and lie 4th in the table over that period. And for all the claims of negativity from a section of their fans, they've scored 80 goals in the period.
Apart from the obvious point of the staleness of a 10-year marriage, I can't see the comparison, given our stultifying regression in that period with on-pitch tedium and a manager floundering unsuccessfully for answers
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Post by ohhgeorgieberry on Mar 17, 2013 9:49:58 GMT
I'm a little surprised that the Oatcake massive haven't turned on Neville in a more vicious and rabid fashion. I mean you only have to look at the way many posters savaged Danny Higginbotham for a similar article not so long ago. The love is clearly strong for Gary Neville. I think you will find Mr Higgy has changed his mind and now believes we are in a relegation fight . Relegation battle mwah ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 9:50:58 GMT
Andy, why are we in a position to even need to 'suck it up' and what evidence is there to suggest there's better to come? A few times, Rob, I've seen you ask, "How long should he be allowed to dine out on history". Each time I have answered and asked you the same question back; but the post has normally disappeared off the page by the time you are awake and so you've never replied. For me, this is the same thing, the article says that GN prefers clubs with stability, rather than a "I want it now ... something different ... something new" attitude. For the record, I don't think anywhere near 1 year, 1 month and four days is long enough to want out a manager who has brought the club so much. I think end of season 2015, if we are still the same club then as we are now, would be more like long enough. I'll happily suffer 3 years of this garbage, in return for what Our Tone has brought us (and I'll happily buy his steak and chips during that time). The evidence that I have for why it can be better is those earlier years. Promotion to the PL, an FA Cup Final that bought me 12,000 miles back home and a euro-campaign that I never ever, in my wildest dreams, thought we would have (my biggest regret with no longer being at home is that I missed the chance to go on those trips, I'll regret that forever). So, like I say, I think this is all about how long someone is prepared to repay - with a bit of faith and a bit of sucking it up - Our Tone for what he has done. You're right to say no one has to, not in this day and age, but I conner bring myself to be like that (I reckon it's me age?) (and yeah, me and you could have done it too ... but we didn't, he did) He's done an absolutely marvellous job Andy but nothing lasts forever. We're currently in a situation entirely of the manager's own making and I just don't see why we should somehow 'owe him' as well as he's done, another couple of seasons of shit just because of what he achieved initially. He doesn't look to me like he can take the club further and we're stagnating as a result. He was our greatest asset but we're coming to a situation where he's holding us back, and to me it's a bit mental to suggest we should keep him out of sentimentality.
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Post by riponstokie on Mar 17, 2013 10:15:51 GMT
Excellent article by Gary Neville. I think the 'We need change brigade' does reflect todays throw away society and the spoilt bratt cyndrome of always wanting more and craving instant gratification. Our club is in incredibly safe hands. Those of us with longer memories, recall owners who were never here and a string of managers who didn't care or were simply just not good enough, with players to match, struggling in the third tier of English football! Like Gary Neville, I like to have a certain amount of security and predictability about us always being likely to be safe, with a chance of cup finals etc on the horizon. I think I'll stick with the mundane existance of safe, secure top flight football for our beloved club.
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Post by stokemark on Mar 17, 2013 10:26:19 GMT
Wonder how many of Stokes last 26 away games Gary has been to ?
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Mar 17, 2013 10:58:38 GMT
He is right about stability , problem with TP is that at times his teams are so frustrating to watch especially when he wastes money and wages on players who will never suit how he wants the team to play
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:20:09 GMT
He's done an absolutely marvellous job Andy but nothing lasts forever. We're currently in a situation entirely of the manager's own making and I just don't see why we should somehow 'owe him' as well as he's done, another couple of seasons of shit just because of what he achieved initially. He doesn't look to me like he can take the club further and we're stagnating as a result. He was our greatest asset but we're coming to a situation where he's holding us back, and to me it's a bit mental to suggest we should keep him out of sentimentality. Still haven't answered the question for yourself, though, Rob. How long do you think should pass, before any manager (Our Tone or A.N. Other), after a very successful run (certainly one of the two most successful short term periods in our history) - who can't repeat that year after year after year - must be chucked in for someone new and exciting? 1 year, 6 months, 2 weeks? We played in the last 32 of the UEFA Cup in mid-February 2012 (and, probably, deserved to go out ... with or without Kenny's missed sitters); so, end of that season was time to go (no FA Cup final)? The night we got knocked out? End of that week? How long for you?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:26:46 GMT
He's done an absolutely marvellous job Andy but nothing lasts forever. We're currently in a situation entirely of the manager's own making and I just don't see why we should somehow 'owe him' as well as he's done, another couple of seasons of shit just because of what he achieved initially. He doesn't look to me like he can take the club further and we're stagnating as a result. He was our greatest asset but we're coming to a situation where he's holding us back, and to me it's a bit mental to suggest we should keep him out of sentimentality. Still haven't answered the question for yourself, though, Rob. How long do you think should pass, before any manager (Our Tone or A.N. Other), after a very successful run (certainly one of the two most successful short term periods in our history) - who can't repeat that year after year after year - must be chucked in for someone new and exciting? 1 year, 6 months, 2 weeks? We played in the last 32 of the UEFA Cup in mid-February 2012 (and, probably, deserved to go out ... with or without Kenny's missed sitters); so, end of that season was time to go (no FA Cup final)? The night we got knocked out? End of that week? How long for you? It's a how long's a piece of string question Andy, where no two situations are the same. As far as Stoke's current situation goes, I thought after the disappointing end to last season he should have this season to push on - no distractions with Europe, more talent brought to the club etc - and we're actually getting worse. In that context, the lack of progress suggests to me he can't take the club further and I'd like to see him moved on with our very best wishes so we can start looking forwards, instead of backwards.
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Post by mightymike on Mar 17, 2013 11:28:11 GMT
The club were aiming for 10th place and we are still currently in 10th place. So it's not the train wreck that some on here would like to believe.
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Post by foxysgloves on Mar 17, 2013 11:28:52 GMT
I thought Gary Neville was loved on here?
Even touted as a manager for us??
He's only gone an ruined it now.
Bloody rimmer!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:30:37 GMT
The club were aiming for 10th place and we are still currently in 10th place. So it's not the train wreck that some on here would like to believe. We're 10th in spite of recent form, not because of it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:31:16 GMT
I thought Gary Neville was loved on here? Even touted as a manager for us?? He's only gone an ruined it now. Bloody rimmer!! Yes. Gary Neville can never be wrong and anyone who respects him as a pundit must be a dreadful hypocrite if they don't agree with every last word he writes.
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Post by foxysgloves on Mar 17, 2013 11:32:47 GMT
I thought Gary Neville was loved on here? Even touted as a manager for us?? He's only gone an ruined it now. Bloody rimmer!! Yes. Gary Neville can never be wrong and anyone who respects him as a pundit must be a dreadful hypocrite if they don't agree with every last word he writes. Thanks, that's what I thought!
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Post by mightymike on Mar 17, 2013 11:33:12 GMT
The club were aiming for 10th place and we are still currently in 10th place. So it's not the train wreck that some on here would like to believe. We're 10th in spite of recent form, not because of it. We are where we are over the course of the season. Recent form has been poor, doesn't mean the last 2 years has been poor like you suggest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 11:39:44 GMT
We're 10th in spite of recent form, not because of it. We are where we are over the course of the season. Recent form has been poor, doesn't mean the last 2 years has been poor like you suggest. How many times have we been at our best over the last two seasons? Liverpool, when else? We've won one game in three and a half months. We had a good run before Christmas that is the reason why we are where we are. The same was true last season. Good run before Christmas, then four wins out of 19 after New Year's Day. Lowest scorers in all four divisions. When you look at our form in the run to the cup final, we haven't come close to hitting those heights since and we don't look anywhere near as good a side.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 12:17:38 GMT
It's a how long's a piece of string question Andy, where no two situations are the same. As far as Stoke's current situation goes, I thought after the disappointing end to last season he should have this season to push on - no distractions with Europe, more talent brought to the club etc - and we're actually getting worse. In that context, the lack of progress suggests to me he can't take the club further and I'd like to see him moved on with our very best wishes so we can start looking forwards, instead of backwards. This is the thing that ... not quite amazes me, but pretty close (I guess because we are Stokies, means it doesn't). I had this same conversation on the phone with me Dad this last week (he who hasn't been in lord knows how many years ...) - If you take it that up to and including the 2010/11 Season, life was just ace
- If you say that 2011/12 was brilliant apart from (maybe) the last 2 months when we fizzled out
Then people (and you, and me-Dad) are saying this season - and, stretching it 7 games of last season - are all it takes to mean a manager loses his job? (a season in which - despite or because of the lack of other decent teams, so I'm told - we are still ... FFS ... 10th. But let's not go there ...) A manager who has brought the club very nearly unparallelled success (is that too many "l"'s?!). Now. I appreciate that some people wanted Our Tone gone, long before he ever arrived the first time, nevermind on the second occasion. Indeed, me and 99% of all rimmers didn't want him back, before he turned up, the second time. Anyone in that first boat should and will take any opportunity to (bad pun alert) stoke the fires. That's fair enough. You're Mystic Meg as far as I am concerned. You can do what you like. But - Having received what 99% of all rimmers believed was the absolute-impossible ( and more!) when he did come back, for the 2nd time - anyone else should really have the ... good grace (is the best way I can put it) ... to put up with a bit of a rubbish season and not in inconsiderable number of tedious games. This is especially true of anyone who watched us at The Old Wreck against Dorchester City in the Cheap-as-Chips Cup (2nd Qualifing round) in 1865. Those who are more-newer to the Stoke experience, get a bit* more leeway. Obviously - as I said to me Dear Ol' Dad - all that's in my 'umble and who the f**k am I. *Well used up by now
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 12:24:19 GMT
It's a how long's a piece of string question Andy, where no two situations are the same. As far as Stoke's current situation goes, I thought after the disappointing end to last season he should have this season to push on - no distractions with Europe, more talent brought to the club etc - and we're actually getting worse. In that context, the lack of progress suggests to me he can't take the club further and I'd like to see him moved on with our very best wishes so we can start looking forwards, instead of backwards. This is the thing that ... not quite amazes me, but pretty close (I guess because we are Stokies, means it doesn't). I had this same conversation on the phone with me Dad this last week (he who hasn't been in lord knows how many years ...) - If you take it that up to and including the 2010/11 Season, life was just ace
- If you say that 2011/12 was brilliant apart from (maybe) the last 2 months when we fizzled out
Then people (and you, and me-Dad) are saying this season - and, stretching it 7 games of last season - are all it takes to mean a manager loses his job? (a season in which - despite or because of the lack of other decent teams, so I'm told - we are still ... FFS ... 10th. But let's not go there ...) A manager who has brought the club very nearly unparallelled success (is that too many "l"'s?!). Now. I appreciate that some people wanted Our Tone gone, long before he ever arrived the first time, nevermind on the second occasion. Indeed, me and 99% of all rimmers didn't want him back, before he turned up, the second time. Anyone in that first boat should and will take any opportunity to (bad pun alert) stoke the fires. That's fair enough. You're Mystic Meg as far as I am concerned. You can do what you like. But - Having received what 99% of all rimmers believed was the absolute-impossible ( and more!) when he did come back, for the 2nd time - anyone else should really have the ... good grace (is the best way I can put it) ... to put up with a bit of a rubbish season and not in inconsiderable number of tedious games. This is especially true of anyone who watched us at The Old Wreck against Dorchester City in the Cheap-as-Chips Cup (2nd Qualifing round) in 1865. Those who are more-newer to the Stoke experience, get a bit* more leeway. Obviously - as I said to me Dear Ol' Dad - all that's in my 'umble and who the f**k am I. *Well used up by now I don't see how last season was brilliant in any way, shape or form to be honest Andy. It was much like this one - turgud dross on the pitch in which we struggled to create or score goals. You could count the number of enjoyable games on one hand and we never came close to hitting the heights of the previous season. We finished the season as the lowest scorers in all four divisions, with the fewest chances created of any team in Europe's top five divisions, and in our lowest Premier League position to date. You also have to take context into account. There are no excuses for us being in this situation - it's entirely down to poor management. I was always hugely pro-Pulis and will be eternally grateful for the job the man has done, but I'm beyond bored of the football which is negative, witless and not a patch on even the end of our first season up in 2009, despite our extra spending, and we seem to be on a huge downward trajectory. We're not getting the results yet he persists with what clearly isn't working. Given that, surely you can see why some people might be losing faith a bit and wanting to see some new ideas.
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Post by lostinafrenchbar on Mar 17, 2013 12:46:07 GMT
Well it's a good article, though not many people could compare Tony Pulis to Manchester Town Hall. Bit surreal that... What Neville misses is that, however good stability is, you have to have a bit of something extra in there, a bit of magic along with the regular predictability. The big problem with us isn't that things haven't changed, it's that at the start of the season it looked like they would, and we all knew big money was being spent, and now it's back to the usual plodding 0 and 1-0s. So a lot of people besides the regular wankstains are getting restless because they've nothing much to look forward to. Likewise Everton supporters at the sight of the season yet again going the same way as always. There's nothing wrong with that.....but there's something wrong with it going on and on forever.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 13:49:46 GMT
I don't see how last season was brilliant in any way, shape or form to be honest Andy. It was much like this one - turgud dross on the pitch in which we struggled to create or score goals. You could count the number of enjoyable games on one hand and we never came close to hitting the heights of the previous season. We finished the season as the lowest scorers in all four divisions, with the fewest chances created of any team in Europe's top five divisions, and in our lowest Premier League position to date. You also have to take context into account. There are no excuses for us being in this situation - it's entirely down to poor management. I was always hugely pro-Pulis and will be eternally grateful for the job the man has done, but I'm beyond bored of the football which is negative, witless and not a patch on even the end of our first season up in 2009, despite our extra spending, and we seem to be on a huge downward trajectory. We're not getting the results yet he persists with what clearly isn't working. Given that, surely you can see why some people might be losing faith a bit and wanting to see some new ideas. Then, you should give him one more season, Rob. Just out of good grace. Three years is fair for what you got. Me? I can't so easily condemn any season in which we make the last 32 of the UEFA Cup. Who the f**k are we? Honestly? I think we've sunk to new depths when Gary Neville can write accurately - in the Daily f**kin' Mail - taking the p1ss out of our support. I watched the Everton game yesterday. The international commentators were making Everton sound like a slightly better version of Stoke. Even Grapey, up above, makes the point (though I don't think he wanted to) that they have no right to complain.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 13:55:51 GMT
I don't see how last season was brilliant in any way, shape or form to be honest Andy. It was much like this one - turgud dross on the pitch in which we struggled to create or score goals. You could count the number of enjoyable games on one hand and we never came close to hitting the heights of the previous season. We finished the season as the lowest scorers in all four divisions, with the fewest chances created of any team in Europe's top five divisions, and in our lowest Premier League position to date. You also have to take context into account. There are no excuses for us being in this situation - it's entirely down to poor management. I was always hugely pro-Pulis and will be eternally grateful for the job the man has done, but I'm beyond bored of the football which is negative, witless and not a patch on even the end of our first season up in 2009, despite our extra spending, and we seem to be on a huge downward trajectory. We're not getting the results yet he persists with what clearly isn't working. Given that, surely you can see why some people might be losing faith a bit and wanting to see some new ideas. Then, you should give him one more season, Rob. Just out of good grace. Three years is fair for what you got. Me? I can't so easily condemn any season in which we make the last 32 of the UEFA Cup. Who the f**k are we? Honestly? I think we've sunk to new depths when Gary Neville can write accurately - in the Daily f**kin' Mail - taking the p1ss out of our support. I watched the Everton game yesterday. The international commentators were making Everton sound like a slightly better version of Stoke. Even Grapey, up above, makes the point (though I don't think he wanted to) that they have no right to complain. Andy, you're making it sounds as if we're all a bunch of ingrates and the manager should be allowed to munumentally cock things up if he wants to - that we owe him that somehow? You've lost me there? Europe last season was pretty much the only silver lining to last season - the league campaign was thoroughly drab. For me, there's no evidence to suggest things are going to get any better or we're going to make any progress - again, the manager's made a pig's ear of a season that was there for the taking in terms of finishing top 10. I've been a huge TP fan but nothing lasts forever and it can be a mistake to hold on too long just as it can to get rid too early.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 14:02:23 GMT
thanks to a small section of our support we are quickly becoming the laughing stock of English football. They are all lining up to have a go at us
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 14:04:12 GMT
interesting comments:
Charlton Athletic and Curbishley are the prime example. - richbun , Liverpool, Merseyside, 17/3/2013 07:23
obviously a rimmer
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 14:13:05 GMT
interesting comments: Charlton Athletic and Curbishley are the prime example. - richbun , Liverpool, Merseyside, 17/3/2013 07:23 obviously a rimmer Not so much 'interesting' as 'ill-informed'. Why are we a laughing stock? The media for years has had a pop at our football and now are wringing their hands in horror when the fans do the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 14:27:37 GMT
The article itself is alright in the way it talks about how clubs should favour stability and stick with managers which I fully agree with. It misses the point completely though about why fans of Stoke are actually peeved off. We have a 5 year net spend (estimated) that is only bettered by Man City and Chelsea, and whilst the first 2 and maybe 3 years the style of football was perfect to keep us up admirably, we are now an established premier league side which instead of evolving and moving forwards, have started stagnating and even moving backwards. The fact that away performances are still dire and there's only one game this season which can be pointed as a game where we played as well as could have done and was actually enjoyable is not good enough. All teams go through rough patches in seasons, no-one is disputing that, but it is ridiculous that the away rough patch has gone on for nearly two years and if form continues this season then we'll be struggling to beat the points tally that we achieved (to Pulis' credit) in the first season in the top flight. Pulis needs to change his approach and past history suggests he is incapable of doing that, if that is the case then a change of personnel is needed at the helm, unfortunately.
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Post by thehoof on Mar 17, 2013 14:51:08 GMT
Mighty Mike, Do you honestly expect us to be 10th by the end of the season? Sunderland, QPR and Southampton arer all games that the onus will be on the other team to win, and with our ridiculous approach to away games, who do you think will win? We could not beat or score against West Ham and West Brom, so that does not fill me with Confidence against ManU or Spurs? We will only know with certainty when the games are completed of course, but the stability and safe hands that the TP supporters refer to, will have seen a declining league position, number of points, and goals (yes I am making my assumption about how we will fare over the last 8 games) in each of the last 3 seasons. That sort of stability is what Nero brought to the Roman Empire - and in my view (which is no more valid than yours), that is what the TP apologists are bringing to Stoke with the "trust the man" approach.
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Post by skip on Mar 17, 2013 14:55:37 GMT
Neville is very knowledgeable about many aspects of football but, like the rest of the national media, knows little about the finer details of Stoke's situation. What is annoying is that he and others like him have a national platform from which to air their ill-informed views, while the people who know exactly what the situation is (i.e. us mere mortals) are not heard at all. If there are no other platforms for alternative views or perspectives, start a zine, an on-line blog, and get our views heard. In the main I'm being serious. Having just read the article, it's either ghost written or Neville thinks in cliches that I thought were beneath him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 15:31:01 GMT
interesting comments: Charlton Athletic and Curbishley are the prime example. - richbun , Liverpool, Merseyside, 17/3/2013 07:23 obviously a rimmer Not so much 'interesting' as 'ill-informed'. Why are we a laughing stock? The media for years has had a pop at our football and now are wringing their hands in horror when the fans do the same thing. Because for years we've laughed at them, stuck two fingers up and told them where to f**k off. Now suddenly we're crying all over the internets/ham-radio and people are laughing at us. Difficult to blame 'em really. And I don't remember this board - or any local/national/world media - having a sh1t time until the last 2 months of 2012. I was reminded of that time, when that den posted GL just before kick off yesterday ... and this morning I went back for a look; we were quite happy. You were the one (and Mr David Sir too, if I remember right?) who asked how long Our Tone should be allowed to dine out on past glories? So it's all about time. 1, 2 3 seasons? And how many - for you - have gone? I thought New-Dad got it right a few days ago: In the end, Pulis is Coates' man. He will decide when he's going. If the only thing the bloke who rescued the club wants is to have Our Tone as Manager. for another year at least, while he continues to invest (and see reinvested) hundreds of millions; then that seems fair enough. I'll grit my teeth and bare it. I'm sure St Peter has had a quiet word with Our Tone - and whoever else is involved - in us not having a squad capable of playing better Pulisball than most of 2012/13.
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