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Post by blurtonboy on Jan 14, 2013 15:37:17 GMT
I reckon our transfer dealings have been brilliant since we came up, we have only spent a very limited amount of money to go from hoof, too pass the ball 3 times & then hoof.
I can see the mangers way of thinking re evolving, this guy is actually evolving slower than the fucking dinosaurs & look what happened to them.
This team can actually work & get us top 8, pity the manager does not realise he has the players capable of doing that.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 14, 2013 15:38:20 GMT
Not a glamorous view but £5 million would be money better spent than some of the money wasted elsewhere; It's the amount of support need that is the problem, there still has to be time available for a winger to attack, quite happy for the fullback to stay in defence
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 15:40:13 GMT
Not a glamorous view but £5 million would be money better spent than some of the money wasted elsewhere; It's the amount of support need that is the problem, there still has to be time available for a winger to attack, quite happy for the fullback to stay in defence I totally agree but there's one bloke who doesn't, he's the one that counts. He's the one that doesn't see full back as a specialist position and he's the one that would rather see them defending the box than stopping crosses.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 14, 2013 15:42:23 GMT
Such a shame it would make a huge difference
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jmw
Academy Starlet
Posts: 245
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Post by jmw on Jan 14, 2013 15:46:44 GMT
Sadly I agree with you Bayern, my point was the better the full back the less support needed and vice versa It's not that easy though. The whole system is based on defending, You take that away and we will concede more. And finding full backs that can defend and attack is like finding rocket horse shit unless You're willing to spend a minimum of £5 million or luck out. That is the reason he dropped the two wide men last year and it looks to be a trend most football clubs are moving towards. The new formation we are playing with is strange, almost like the old inside forward position but without the traditional wingers. Ethrington is much narrower than he was previously and Walters has always been narrow. Our reason for this does seem to be tactical but makes us very one dimensional and easy to defend against.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 14, 2013 15:49:54 GMT
Today is a momentus day. Rossi and I have now agreed 3 times in one day! Wonders never cease. Good man Rossi. In all seriousness, I enjoy our infrequent bits of banter. They make the working day go a bit quicker.
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Post by zigazaga on Jan 14, 2013 15:51:23 GMT
Brilliant initial post there and very very true. For the money and time he has had Pullis should have built the core of a decent starting 11. But he hasn't due to buying a mass of mediocre players and then to 'cap' things off he insists on playing the majority of them out of position. It just mystifies me at times what hes trying to achieve. I really cant understand why he has never replaced Wilkinson. If I was an opposing manager I would see that Wilko was the weak link and put pressure on him. Its not rocket science.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 14, 2013 15:52:15 GMT
Today is a momentus day. Rossi and I have now agreed 3 times in one day! Wonders never cease. Good man Rossi. In all seriousness, I enjoy our infrequent bits of banter. They make the working day go a bit quicker. Same for me ;D I'd be so bored if it wasnt for this message board, especially stuck in parts of the country where Stoke City is a foreign language to most.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 15:53:12 GMT
It's not that easy though. The whole system is based on defending, You take that away and we will concede more. And finding full backs that can defend and attack is like finding rocket horse shit unless You're willing to spend a minimum of £5 million or luck out. That is the reason he dropped the two wide men last year and it looks to be a trend most football clubs are moving towards. The new formation we are playing with is strange, almost like the old inside forward position but without the traditional wingers. Ethrington is much narrower than he was previously and Walters has always been narrow. Our reason for this does seem to be tactical but makes us very one dimensional and easy to defend against. True but at other clubs the wingers are swapped with players that still attack or keep possession. Ours have been swapped with nullifiers. And I think rather ironically there are no better than we could sign than Pennant and Ethers for protecting their full back and they provide an attacking threat too. And Ethers isn't the player he was but he was a lot better on Saturday I thought. We obviously need to replace them within the next 6 months but we can have a defensive and attacking force playing on the wing. He's shown that before. Walters offers nothing going forward out there and is a liability defensively. I just don't get it.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 14, 2013 15:55:52 GMT
It's a tactic but beggars the question why we have such tall forwards, we may be better off with smaller quicker forwards attacking in a break away down the middle. I'm happily old fashioned, I like a strong defence, a big centre forward and quick wingers who can cross the ball. perhaps I will come back in fashion one day, it's great to watch and mostly how Stoke have always played.
As an aside on spelling, why is the spell checker on this board US English? centre is not center but gets underlined!
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 14, 2013 15:57:56 GMT
Defensively, as a winger, Walters is really bad isn't he?
Beggars belief really because Walters, as a winger, really doesn't offer a single thing.
He is crap defensively, he is no goal threat from wide positions and he rarely puts a cross in either.
It is quite mystifying how our manager is seemingly happy to negate the only genuine attacking part of our team (Walters, KJ + 2 natural wingers) in favour of what we saw on Saturday and what we had seen prior to the recent Spurs and Liverpool games.
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jmw
Academy Starlet
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Post by jmw on Jan 14, 2013 16:01:14 GMT
That is the reason he dropped the two wide men last year and it looks to be a trend most football clubs are moving towards. The new formation we are playing with is strange, almost like the old inside forward position but without the traditional wingers. Ethrington is much narrower than he was previously and Walters has always been narrow. Our reason for this does seem to be tactical but makes us very one dimensional and easy to defend against. True but at other clubs the wingers are swapped with players that still attack or keep possession. Ours have been swapped with nullifiers. And I think rather ironically there are no better than we could sign than Pennant and Ethers for protecting their full back and they provide an attacking threat too. And Ethers isn't the player he was but he was a lot better on Saturday I thought. We obviously need to replace them within the next 6 months but we can have a defensive and attacking force playing on the wing. He's shown that before. Walters offers nothing going forward out there and is a liability defensively. I just don't get it. I agree , especially Pennant and Ethrington. I also think that with Whelan and N'Zonzi in the middle we have better protection in the middle.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 16:01:55 GMT
Defensively, as a winger, Walters is really bad isn't he? Beggars belief really because Walters, as a winger, really doesn't offer a single thing. He is crap defensively, he is no goal threat from wide positions and he rarely puts a cross in either. It is quite mystifying how our manager is seemingly happy to negate the only genuine attacking part of our team (Walters, KJ + 2 natural wingers) in favour of what we saw on Saturday and what we had seen prior to the recent Spurs and Liverpool games. He runs a lot. And that is fine behind the striker because You don't need to think but just occupy the space and he does it well. On the wing You need to think and read the game defensively and to concentrate. He does none of the above. He's too reactive and not pro-active with it subsequently he's poor defensively. True but at other clubs the wingers are swapped with players that still attack or keep possession. Ours have been swapped with nullifiers. And I think rather ironically there are no better than we could sign than Pennant and Ethers for protecting their full back and they provide an attacking threat too. And Ethers isn't the player he was but he was a lot better on Saturday I thought. We obviously need to replace them within the next 6 months but we can have a defensive and attacking force playing on the wing. He's shown that before. Walters offers nothing going forward out there and is a liability defensively. I just don't get it. I agree , especially Pennant and Ethrington. I also think that with Whelan and N'Zonzi in the middle we have better protection in the middle. And they are two players who read the game, spot danger and can fill in for others. Their defensive strengths should allow us to have a more attacking full back.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 14, 2013 16:02:38 GMT
OK that's solved then, now who's going to tell TP?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 14, 2013 16:06:46 GMT
I'll tell him tomorrow as I think we are sitting behind or near to the dug outs for tomorrows game. Alternatively I could try a Boskamp and print out this thread and hand it to Dave Kemp on the touchline. TP could then throw a strop, stick Kemp on gardening leave for the rest of the season and resign himself in the summer! ;D
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jmw
Academy Starlet
Posts: 245
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Post by jmw on Jan 14, 2013 16:08:00 GMT
OK that's solved then, now who's going to tell TP? I think Tone is actually RAF so he should be already checking for typos to correct.
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Post by stokiejoe on Jan 14, 2013 16:08:55 GMT
Watch out for the water bottle! Good thread interesting debate.
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Post by jezzascfc on Jan 14, 2013 16:16:00 GMT
Sadly I agree with you Bayern, my point was the better the full back the less support needed and vice versa It's not that easy though. The whole system is based on defending, You take that away and we will concede more. And finding full backs that can defend and attack is like finding rocket horse shit unless You're willing to spend a minimum of £5 million or luck out. But that is exactly my point Bayern - we are happy to spunk away 8m on Palacios, 10m on Crouch, etc but full backs are a last resort - we shoe horn centre halves (Cameron and even Huth at one stage!) or central midfielders (Wilson) in there, or those who have come through the ranks that no other Premier League team would give a starting spot to (both Wilko and Shots). We should really be spending 5m plus on decent full backs!!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 16:19:43 GMT
It's not that easy though. The whole system is based on defending, You take that away and we will concede more. And finding full backs that can defend and attack is like finding rocket horse shit unless You're willing to spend a minimum of £5 million or luck out. But that is exactly my point Bayern - we are happy to spunk away 8m on Palacios, 10m on Crouch, etc but full backs are a last resort - we shoe horn centre halves (Cameron and even Huth at one stage!) or central midfielders (Wilson) in there, or those who have come through the ranks that no other Premier League team would give a starting spot to (both Wilko and Shots). We should really be spending 5m plus on decent full backs!! I've already answered this further up, I agree Jezza but the manager doesn't see full back as a specialised position, he doesn't see it as a problem. Has TP actually signed a proper full back for us? The only one I can think of is Griff. And we haven't had a left back since Marcus Hall but he wasn't signed by TP was he? That's how important TP thinks it is! I don't agree with him but it just all seems a bit futile to me.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 14, 2013 16:22:55 GMT
Pulis wouldn't know what a full-back looked like if one turned up and slapped him square in the face whilst wearing only a towel Jezza.
Has he ever signed a full-back whilst at our club? A genuine one I mean.
He used Wayne Thomas at full-back and inherited Clive Clarke.
John Halls was a decent right back but actually arrived as a centre half who preferred to play in midfield. Higgy was very much a centre half who hated playing at left back initially. Wilko was inherited. Cameron is a centre half and Wilson was a midfield player.
Pulis has an aversion to full-backs and actually, as someone pointed out further up the thread, doesn't see them as being necessary for anything other than defending the penalty area. He even tucks them inside so much as to not give a shit about stopping crosses coming into the box which for me, has always been the main job of a full-back.
As I typed that last paragraph, I remember Marcus Hall. Possibly the only genuine full-back Pulis has signed during his 10 year spell as our manager. Is there another?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 16:26:44 GMT
Did he sign Hall then? He joined in 2002, it would have been Quitter or TP.
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Post by Pirate on Jan 14, 2013 16:28:57 GMT
Pulis wouldn't know what a full-back looked like if one turned up and slapped him square in the face whilst wearing only a towel Jezza. Has he ever signed a full-back whilst at our club? A genuine one I mean. He used Wayne Thomas at full-back and inherited Clive Clarke. John Halls was a decent right back but actually arrived as a centre half who preferred to play in midfield. Higgy was very much a centre half who hated playing at left back initially. Wilko was inherited. Cameron is a centre half and Wilson was a midfield player. Pulis has an aversion to full-backs and actually, as someone pointed out further up the thread, doesn't see them as being necessary for anything other than defending the penalty area. He even tucks them inside so much as to not give a shit about stopping crosses coming into the box which for me, has always been the main job of a full-back. As I typed that last paragraph, I remember Marcus Hall. Possibly the only genuine full-back Pulis has signed during his 10 year spell as our manager. Is there another? Andy Griffin?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 16:31:57 GMT
It was definitely TP who signed Hall, so in his 10 years with us, he has signed one genuine left back!
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jmw
Academy Starlet
Posts: 245
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Post by jmw on Jan 14, 2013 16:35:35 GMT
Pulis wouldn't know what a full-back looked like if one turned up and slapped him square in the face whilst wearing only a towel Jezza. This is the odd thing with the change in formation, in general we are playing a 4,2,3,1. Normally you have attacking full backs with this formation, we do not. So the whole formation lacks the essential ingredient for it to work as an attacking formation. It would appear that we are going for a truly defensive formation with our players.
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Post by jezzascfc on Jan 14, 2013 16:36:07 GMT
....and if he ever signed a modern full back, like Martin Olsson or Vasilis Torosidis, he would see him, in Pulisball terms, as a wide midfielder and never risk playing either of them at wide centre half any way. Grrrrrr.......
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jan 14, 2013 16:38:28 GMT
....and if he ever signed a modern full back, like Martin Olsson or Vasilis Torosidis, he would see him, in Pulisball terms, as a wide midfielder and never risk playing either of them at wide centre half any way. Grrrrrr....... From what I've seen of that Greek fella he's not a good defender but that was only for Greece in the Euro's. He left more space in behind him than Danny Collins on a bad day and was just generally really bad. Olsson has his moments too but he's generally ok. Both would definitely be wingers for us.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 14, 2013 16:38:51 GMT
No change in formation to me and certainly not a change to something so complicated that you mention.
It is still 4-4-1-1 and he is still trying to hammer unsuitable square pegs into key position round holes.
EDIT - How could I forget about Griffin? Left us as a teenager as a brilliant left back yet TP signed him and played him at right back.
Talking of that move, Hoefkens was a bad centre half who was actually a very decent right back. Pulis soon banished him because he got forward a bit too much and he first found himself on the right wing (ala Shotton) then out of the club completely.
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jmw
Academy Starlet
Posts: 245
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Post by jmw on Jan 14, 2013 16:50:42 GMT
The 4-2-3-1 formation changes 4-4-1-1 or 4-5-1 when defending and 4-2-3-1 when attacking. Your point illustrates the main problem - the formation Pulis is trying to use needs attacking full backs to add width. We have seen glimpses of the correct use of the formation in our game against Wigan. It other games we have only used the defensive formation, this is why we don't create a lot of chances. It is odd and quite obviously intentional from Pulis.
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Post by GallysGuitar on Jan 14, 2013 17:18:38 GMT
It's the nature of the Adam signing that is holding Pulis back. It was a massive statement with regards to our evolvement. Dropping him would be like going back to square one but that's exactly where we need to go.
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Post by Miles Offside on Jan 14, 2013 17:50:24 GMT
We came up from the Championship with only two players I thought would cope with Premier league football - Shawcross and Fuller.
We've now got five top players who would walk into most sides - Begovic, Shawcross, Huth, Nzonzi and Wilson.
Sorensson was a great free transfer and we've had brilliant value out of Faye, Delap, Higginbotham and Etherington.
Jones and Crouch were expensive by our standards, but their goals helped take us to a Cup Final and comfortably keep us up last season.
Pennant looked great value for a while - what's happened to him recently is anybody's guess.
Walters and Jerome have not been a bad buys and Cameron looks good value at a couple of million for a utility-type player.
But it's true that there's a coach load of other signings that were, in the main, gambles that didn't come off. I'm not going to slag off individual players, but we have to accept that Stoke is a club that has to gamble.
Sometimes the gambles pay off, often they don't.
Pulis knows the same as what everybody on here knows - we need better full-backs, more pace on the flanks and a replacement for Ric (the Ric he brought to the club and got more out of than any other manager).
But you need to look no further than Remy and Ba to see that it's one thing knowing what's needed and another thing getting it.
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