If we don't change soon then time for Tone to go

[ted1965]

The morning after the night before and time for a more reasoned debate. We are struggling only a blind man would disagree with that. I hadn't actually looked at the results since the turn of the year, was it just a few games in isolation we could just say lets see what happens once the window closes and the new players settle in.

Though its more than just a bad run of form its been too long now without being addressed and worst of all the manager seems to have few ideas of what he needs to do to change it at the moment. Or maybe he just doesn't feel the need to change, maybe he has slipped into the as long as we get 40 points it doesn't matter how we do it. Sorry Tone that was fine for a few years not once you have become established.

For those who say in Tone we trust and go watch the vale if you're not happy and we are wherever in the league, all I can say that's childish putting your hands over your eyes or your fingers in your ears debating while yelling I can see you, I can't hear you. Its what a 5 year old does when they are being told something they don't like.

The facts, we have been in similar situations before under Tony Pulis and just when it looks like the obituaries are being written he pulls something from the fire and the form turns around. Its like Houdini, just when you think he's about to drown he releases the chains and escapes to the amazement of all. The only problem with that scenario one day Houdini didn't escape.

Those who call for his head at the moment are they justified.

In my eyes no, not because I believe that we can't be managed by anyone else or because I can't see the faults of the manager. I simply say no because it isn't going to happen and no amount of stamping your foot or banging your head off the nearest wall is going to change that anytime soon. There's only one man who will decide Tone's future ad he seems content with the job he;s doing, well at least publicly. I hope behind closed doors he's beginning to ask some serious questions about our alarming slump since the beginning of the year. I would hope he's asking Tone some serious questions.

Why in our 5th season in the Premier league have we not got a recognized full back. Is there really nobody who we could have scouted and signed in all that time.

Why have we become so negative in our approach, especially after I have given you more than enough money to have signed players capable of evolving our style of play.

Why having brought in so many players do you seem to be incapable of trusting them to show any ability or flair in the final third.

Why did we sign Palacios if he simply isn't fit to play at this level anymore when we turned Demba Ba down on the grounds of his worrying medical findings. If he is fit to play then why isn't he in the side.

I would hope he's got the answers he wants to hear and not what we hear publicly. I would also hope PC has told Tone we need to improve our approach in games and create chances because at the moment its like trying to juggle with both hands cuffed behind your back it maybe possible but only a few times before the balls drop and you can't pick them up again.

Tone needs one of those roads to Damascus moments and if he doesn't have one things will only get worse. If people are truly delighted seeing a side that hardly makes the opposition keeper earn his money then all is well because we rarely do. Just being in the Premier league isn't enough anymore for many they want something to talk about in the pub other than that was depressing and when will it get better.

I don't buy the argument that if we open up more it will result in doom and gloom after all its all roses and honey now isn't it. I am not one who says why don't we play like so and so. Its not about total football its about total intent to make tams fear us again. Plan A has been well and truly rumbled by teams now, you can see teams no longer fear playing us, they have sussed we have truly become a parody of our media image. We had changed in 2011 but what happened, why the regression all these questions need to asked and answered but more importantly we need to change fast or we could be in for a long hard struggle when it isn't necessary.

If Tone wont change or adapt soon then it will be time for him to go and no matter how many squeal their disapproval I for one wont be one of them. I support Stoke City and whoever the manager is I shall support Stoke City. I am sure I will get plenty of abuse for being negative but I am not negative at all its because we have become so negative that things have gotten to this stage. Its simply my opinion and I have no problems with anyone disagreeing with my thoughts as long as they can do it in a way that doesn't become childish and abusive.

[jeycov]

An excellent post.
Lots of contributors on this board seem to be rubbing their hand with glee at the prospect of failure regarding TP.

It did seem logical to rest several regular 1st team players for the game last night and TP did this.

He rested SJW - no one seems to have applauded that.

The players selected to start had a bad day at the office. If that happens to one or two of them , the rest have a chance to compensate. When it's most of them, panic sets in.

Poor start from Thomas - the psychological advantage of the goal probably did more damage as TS did pull off some very good saves later on.

This evening highlighted the lack of depth in the current squad.
Some need to go out on loan in my opinion - we nearly released Shotton this time last year, after several good games we kept him and he did quite well to start with.
A loan will probably do both him and the team a favour.

For others they are now past their best and would be better suited to Championship football.

A couple more just havent been able to show their form with us and need to move on even if we lose out financially.

Yes we need to add to the squad with some proven quality but also be prepared to give some of the younger players a chance - on the bench to start with.
Just like Walters 2 seasons ago they will be keen to impress and this can only be good for the team.

3 important days ahead concerning both buying and selling.

3 important matches on the horizon all very testing

[okeydokeystokie2]

It is disappointing that Tony doesn't get more support and trust from supporters.

We heard all this last year after the defeats to Sunderland and Bolton. We heard it all the year before after the league defeat to West Ham. A couple of changes and they turned it around. I say "they", because it's a team game, and the manager, coaching staff, medical team and the playing squad have a shared responsibility and common goal.

As I said at the time of last year's criticism, give them some trust and support. The future is bright. Things were really dificult when Tony first arrived and we lost by 7 at Forest. But guess what? He didn't panic, made a couple of changes and steadied the ship. It's been pretty much an upward curve since then.

[roro]

Great post Ted, if only people could see the truth.

BTW Okey... we only lost six at Forest, but they have won the European Cup (Twice!!)

[Caerwrangonpotter]

One persons views on Stoke City who I read & take on board each time

Ted, I doff my hat.

[jarvinski]

Championship at best Whelan whitehead delap wilkinson wilson shotton (div 2) jones higginbotham arismendi cuvellier We seriously need to start ridding some of these hangers on Peter coates is throwing good money after bad Considering all the country know we are a two touch team ( penalty area to penalty area) we have to change NOW

[johnnysoul60]

The game never stands still, sadly TP seems incapable or unwilling to move with it, that has to be the biggest worry it was there for all to see last night in the way the two sides approached the game .
Ultimately it will come down to results I guess but at this moment in time I would not be surprised to see a new manager in for the second half of the season, unless as has rightly been ponted out TP finds a couple of rabbits before Friday

[okeydokeystokie2]

Thanks Roro, I stand corrected. Memory going with age.

Old enough to remember crashing out of the FA Cup to Blyth Spartans after a replay at home. Lucky there were no message boards then.

My point is that all the achievements desrve a little more respect and support. What evidence is there that we are suddenly incapable of turning our form around? To me, recent history would suggest the opposite, and that we will turn it around after this dificult run of fixtures.

[Clayton Wood]

Aug 29, 2012 10:26:12 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

Thanks Roro, I stand corrected. Memory going with age.

Old enough to remember crashing out of the FA Cup to Blyth Spartans after a replay at home. Lucky there were no message boards then.

My point is that all the achievements desrve a little more respect and support. What evidence is there that we are suddenly incapable of turning our form around? To me, recent history would suggest the opposite, and that we will turn it around after this dificult run of fixtures.

In all his years as a manager at whichever club he has not changed his style of play. Whether that is because he does not feel the need to or if he is incapable is open to debate. Either way a change from percentage football does not look likely based on history. Worryingly most on here agree that since the beginning of the year we have been sliding backwards at best, or possibly standing still while the rest overtake us.

The reality is we are in trouble resultswise never mind stylewise. Can/will Pulis change that? I fear not, it's a case of how far PC lets it go. I support SCFC not Tony Pulis so I hope for the clubs sake I am wrong.

[Kingswaystokie]

Excellent post Ted, your not being negative, like me realistic.

[thehoof]

But Okey, we are talking about a 27 game slump -there is nothing in the first 3 games of the season to suggest that anything has changed from Christmas of last year?Even Blind Pugh would have seen that we needed two decent fullbacks by now -TP appears to have made a half hearted attempt to sign Popov, and that is about it. The midfield is still a grotesque parody of non-existence and the forward line has little pace and with the exception of Crouch, little technical ability. At some stage TP has either got to get the current squad playing to the level of its "supposed" ability, or get "better" players in (something which I am losing faith in his ability to do). I hope that you are right, and he may change things for the better, but not winning does more harm to a team than any negativity on a fan's board or lack of atmosphere at a game.

[dutchstokie]

Many valid points covered in a reasoned fashion ted....fair play to you.

Lets get back to discussing things in a controlled way hey.

[okeydokeystokie2]

I take your point, thehoof, that we are in a bad run of results and form. But surely you contradict your own arguments? Nobody will be more aware of this than Tony himself.

Regarding the left back, he's been close to at least 2 to our knowledge. If Popov doesn't happen I wouldn't be surprised to see somebody like Stephen Warnock before the week is out.

You describe midfield as a parody. By the time we play Man City, 3 out of 4 midfielders could be new. It is probable that Kightly, Cameron and maybe Huddlestone/Edu could be starting. We may also have a new striker, at least on the bench.

This looks like a wilingness to change things to me.

[baltipiesmuggler]

Always enjoy your (long!) posts Ted.

I think I'd agree with your sentiment. I've always been pleased with the way Pulis came back to the club, took it by the scruff of the neck and dragged it into the top flight. It would be so easy to forget that but I won't - I'll always be greatful, but the fact is we've been regressing for some months now.

I'm sick to the back teeth of having to defend Pulis - not just to Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea 'fans' in the office, but to fellow stokies. Put simply, I've got no defence anymore. He's become his own worse enemy.

The thing is, how much would it take to turn things around? A couple of key players, a couple of strong results, a few key goals and we could be back to our best in no time. You have to believe that the majority of the squad is good enough?!

In some ways, it's good that we've got a few very challenging games coming up - particularly at home, as it feels like make or break time.

[andyredditch]

Great post Ted not negative at all and highlighting the alarming slump in form

I will always be thankful to TP for getting us into the Prem and the Wembley experience absolutely fantastic and topped off by a trip to Europe but he has to change tactics now not greatly but start to go at teams like we did in the Cup run or as we did against Villa in our very first Prem game

He can turn it around by bringing in a proper full back ( Warnock why not got to be no worse than Wilko)

Huddo from Spurs who I beleive can actually pass a ball

A Striker god knows who though as it wont make any difference unless he changes the style of play.

[stokiekey]

Sensible post but to be fair, I think we've progressed as the years have gone on, FA Cup final, good run on Europe, nothing wrong at all a the moment. Our premier league position hasn't really improved much over the years but we've been a solid premier league side. and with us being in Europe last year that must of cost us a fair few points, so alls I hopefully expect and what the rest of us should expect is a top 10 finish, and a good cup run in the FA Cup. But I really don't get all this Pulis bashing, most clubs, even the ones in the top 10 have a pretty sticky patch within the season yet when we have one there's something majorly wrong. We'll have our ups and downs but there's no need to doom and gloom us over a little run of bad form (which, we haven't had yet because the seasons only just began).

[newportstokieone]

I am SO grateful to TP for getting us where we are. BUT........4 wins and 19 goals in 24 league games ......and the insistance of TP to continue playing the negative and unsuccesful football that we are ....how long do we give him ?

I would love nothing more than for TP to turn this around. I spoke on praise and grumble at the end of last season stating my concerns and I got battered for being negative.

These stats are not being negative .. they are FACTS - you cannot argue wiTh them.

TP sends Fuller on his way - "Thank you for all that you have done, but you cannot Help us any further" - no sentiment allowed in football.

How long before we do the same with TP ?????

No doubt I will now be slated for not supoting TP - but I have - Genuinely, can he takeus any further - will his stubborn attitude have us relegated before it is too late.... ?

Possibly I think - unfortunately.

[lordb]

superb o/p & top thread

however

what sort of manager would Coates appoint in the current circumstances?

imho a Megson type.

imho this is not a good time to change the manager

best time is end of May & then any new manager gets whole summer

with all TP's faults is he likely to keep Stoke up?
yes I think he is highly likley to do that

[mermaidsal]

Just to say, if we tried combining the Pulis Out threads today it would take us every hour so may as well have an amnesty, just for now ;D

Right now, as a long-term (if sceptical at times) Pulista, I'm pretty much with Ted I'm afraid, as so often the man with the long posts talks sense...

[PotteringThrough]

Houdini always escaped.

[lloyd86]

Quality post! The last paragraph sums it up to me. Im also not negative and when i arrive to each game im optimistic that we will go and win..... Until you see the negative approach they have to the game once again and realise that we are in for another eye sore!

[Los Alfareros]

Everything you have said is true in that post Ted, and any reasonably sane Stokie, wherever they stand on TP would have to agree with it.

I love you Stoke City, I always have and I always will.....


..... but I just dont fancy you anymore

[ted1965]

Its good to see reasoned debate on all sides and I know football is about passion and we all get a little carried away at times but abusing each other never adds anything to the debate. For me its about changing for the right reasons if we decided to change managers. I think some on both sides have forgotten its what's best for Stoke City that is important and not whether you like the manager or you dislike him.

Some on both sides seem to have forgotten we are supporters of the club first and foremost. I can't believe those who say we simply can't contemplate life after TP because unless he's in change we are going to end up like Charlton or some other club who have fallen into decline. I am sorry but that could happen irrespective of who is manager.

I also find those who almost wait rubbing their hands together almost wanting some kind of implosion so they can say I told you so and delight in the managers demise.

I could never want my team to lose just because I am not a fan of the manager at the time. This should be about wanting the best for Stoke and whatever will take us forward in the best way. Its not an election and its not a popularity contest.

My view is now that Tone has plenty of work to do because we are struggling and he's responsible for the direction we have been going. Just as he was responsible for the good times and receives my utmost gratitude and thanks for those times. Its what goes with the territory you get the praise when it works and you get the flak when you change what works and it goes wrong. Tone changed direction from what patently was working and people were enjoying now he has to put it right or pay the consequences its in his court and I as Stoke supporter hope he gets it right because stability makes for happier supporters but refuse to change and you lose the supporters and the job its as simple as that for me.

[staffordshireknot]

Aug 29, 2012 11:03:28 GMT okeydokeystokie2 said:

I take your point, thehoof, that we are in a bad run of results and form. But surely you contradict your own arguments? Nobody will be more aware of this than Tony himself.

Regarding the left back, he's been close to at least 2 to our knowledge. If Popov doesn't happen I wouldn't be surprised to see somebody like Stephen Warnock before the week is out.

You describe midfield as a parody. By the time we play Man City, 3 out of 4 midfielders could be new. It is probable that Kightly, Cameron and maybe Huddlestone/Edu could be starting. We may also have a new striker, at least on the bench.

This looks like a wilingness to change things to me.

We all know Walters, Whelan etc are the weak link. Yet TP still starts them every league game despite have better tactical players in the squad.

That is not a willingness to change.

[shep207]

Houdini always escaped. He died of peritonitis.

Edit: Just realised someone already posted this.

[johnsmithsupper]

I've been a supporter of tp all along but I have changed my mind this week ted, he is never going to change his style and this year 2012 the football produced has been nothing short of chronic.

He may well sign 3 or 4 players who make a difference this week but as I keep banging on about when are the full back positions going to be addressed. How many windows have now passed and no progress made.

Many other issues also but haven't got the will to list them

[PotteringThrough]

Aug 29, 2012 13:20:39 GMT shep207 said:

Houdini always escaped. He died of peritonitis.

Edit: Just realised someone already posted this.

You're damn right they did!

[okeydokeystokie2]

I'm afraid that you are being negative.

It is 1 season ago that we were in the FA Cup final. This time last season we were just growing into the first European campaign for nearly 40 years. These are undoubtedley the most successful times along with the years from 1971 - 1975 in our 150 year history.

Do you honestly believe that anybody at Stoke City does not want to improve? Do you also believe that after the brilliant form of 2011, the manager deliberately decided to change things for the worse? All he has tried to do is improve the squad, partly with Europe in mind. Who didn't think the signing of Palacios was a good move at the time? Many argued that Peter Crouch should have gone to the Euros. Unfortunately football management is not an exact science. There is an element of risk in some of the decisions you take.

We hit the maximum in 2011. A decent league campaign, the FA Cup final and European qualification. The very best we can hope for is a top 10 finish and good cup runs. It will be tough for us to qualify for the Europa League in the forseeable future.

Our improvement has been spectacular and dramatic. It is not possible to continue that rate of improvement forever.

Thankfully some of you are not running the club. You are fickle and negative. Step back, take a look at the big picture. With the increased revenues in The Premier League from next season and the implementation of the Financial Fair Play rules in the next couple of years, the development of a first class academy, Stoke City are in a good position. Premier League survival is paramount. We haven't even reached the end of the transfer window. We could have a different look in the next couple of weeks, and a couple of decent performances and results will boost everybody's confidence.

You find out how good your supporters are in the bad times, not the good times. Give the team and manager your support, let's stick together and move our famous club forwards again.

[Gods]

Not like you to get carried away Ted.

So far in the League we have drawn an away game (never bad in the Prem) and drawn with a Champions League team so a solid if unspectacular start.

Yes we have lost in the League Cup to a lower league team which is desperately disappointing but in the 35 years between Waddo and TP that always used to happen. It was also out first home defeat since Sunderland beat us 1-0 in a blizzard in the first week of February 7 months ago.

I'm sure Peter Coates will not be getting quite as punchy as some folks on here.

[andyredditch]

There are a few problems though Oke which you have not addressed

Take a look a the fixture list and tell me where the points are coming from based on our current form ?

The reliance on the 3 W's is killing us and all TP has done is continue to play them and sent WP off to play with the under 21's

You say our rise has been spetacular agreed promotion , Cup Final and Europe were immnse
However the rot set in for me when he gave away everything in Valencia with his team selection an insult to every Stoke fan who made that memorable journey.

Sunday was simply shocking and even though I was not there last night was worse, agreed a couple of decent signings could change things and i hope and pray they do but TP cannot keep spoting the Cup final , last 32 Europa League blah , blah , its the here and now that counts and if he cannot change from his dire negative football he will be gone