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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 16:31:59 GMT
Just a footnote, I am not advocating people don't pay their taxes, the government has all the guns, you won't win. ;D
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 16:40:04 GMT
I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a anrcho-capitalist rant, we're getting off subject a bit, but how can you say taxation isn't force ? it's the very definition, if i don't pay taxes I will be put inside a government cage, or worse, if i resist enough I'll probably be shot or electrocuted with a stun gun. Also, most of your taxes now go to the huge bureaucracy and payment on the interest of the debt, and those pensions you paid into don't even exist, it's merely money stolen from future generations, they spent your pension, part of it was literally dropped into the middle of the desert (otherwise known as Iraq and Afghanistan). It wouldn't worry me if I had had a private pension - I've always been a saver and investor since I started work so I would have taken one out if I had needed to but I din't need to so I stuck with the pension provided. But you still haven't explained how a state without taxes pays for the Police, the armed forces, government (even minimal governement "lite" such as you want) the courts, mental health services, prisons, education for the poor - and for everything else if people like me are not paying taxes towards it.
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 16:42:19 GMT
Proud to be British.. right when the family is german... and their money can go towards things like the NHS.. Glad its over and the human tourist attraction can go and disapear till next year... Think of all the taxes when we are in a recession.. Don't forget the Greek
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Post by 606Stokie on Jun 6, 2012 16:45:58 GMT
Proud to be British.. right when the family is german... and their money can go towards things like the NHS.. Glad its over and the human tourist attraction can go and disapear till next year... Think of all the taxes when we are in a recession.. Don't forget the Greek Greeks are fucked and Spanish wont be far behind... Also only one country makes a profit on the Olympics is the USA.. Why cant we sort ourselves out before getting this stuff and spend it on important stuff like the NHS...
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 16:50:03 GMT
Don't forget the Greek Greeks are fucked and Spanish wont be far behind... Also only one country makes a profit on the Olympics is the USA.. Why cant we sort ourselves out before getting this stuff and spend it on important stuff like the NHS... Calm down dear, I meant Prince Phillip ;D
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Post by 606Stokie on Jun 6, 2012 16:55:28 GMT
Greeks are fucked and Spanish wont be far behind... Also only one country makes a profit on the Olympics is the USA.. Why cant we sort ourselves out before getting this stuff and spend it on important stuff like the NHS... Calm down dear, I meant Prince Phillip ;D Yeah i guessed..
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 16:55:36 GMT
I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a anrcho-capitalist rant, we're getting off subject a bit, but how can you say taxation isn't force ? it's the very definition, if i don't pay taxes I will be put inside a government cage, or worse, if i resist enough I'll probably be shot or electrocuted with a stun gun. Also, most of your taxes now go to the huge bureaucracy and payment on the interest of the debt, and those pensions you paid into don't even exist, it's merely money stolen from future generations, they spent your pension, part of it was literally dropped into the middle of the desert (otherwise known as Iraq and Afghanistan). It wouldn't worry me if I had had a private pension - I've always been a saver and investor since I started work so I would have taken one out if I had needed to but I din't need to so I stuck with the pension provided. But you still haven't explained how a state without taxes pays for the Police, the armed forces, government (even minimal governement "lite" such as you want) the courts, mental health services, prisons, education for the poor - and for everything else if people like me are not paying taxes towards it. You were very wise to be a saver, shame there weren't/aren't more people who think like that. Although the government/central bank hasn't made it particularly preferable to save in recent years. For me those questions are irrelevant and I can't answer them because i don't know, i don't have a crystal ball, the possibilities are endless, but people value those things quite highly so they would get done, again, i don' want to keep repeating myself, but I believe taxation is force (if you don't pay you go to jail or possibly worse if you resist enough, i mean comon, it just is! think about it), all other questions are a side issue, i don't have the right to take the fruits of someones labor and give it to someone else at the point of a gun, or the threat of incarceration, lets free the slaves first, then figure out how things will work.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 17:09:07 GMT
But the possibilities are not endless. If they were endless then several sizeable countries would have tried to fund them without taxation. You might get the odd place with oil wealth or a huge percentage of its income from tourism who could manage it. But the fact is that no large modern industrial country (capitalist or socialist) has managed to think of a way of paying for most of those things other than by taxation.
You can keep on saying "all taxation is force" in the same way that some socialists say "all capital is theft" - but saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. The test of the validity of your argument is whether you can get a majority of people to agree with you. If you can't do that then it is pointless expecting people to switch from a taxation system to whatever it is you propose.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 17:19:25 GMT
But the possibilities are not endless. If they were endless then several sizeable countries would have tried to fund them without taxation. You might get the odd place with oil wealth or a huge percentage of its income from tourism who could manage it. But the fact is that no large modern industrial country (capitalist or socialist) has managed to think of a way of paying for most of those things other than by taxation. Why would politicians in any country put themselves out of a job ? the change won't come from inside the government, I doubt *any politician ANYWHERE is sitting in his office now thinking about anarcho-capitalism as an option . * maybe ron paul.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 17:20:37 GMT
But the possibilities are not endless. If they were endless then several sizeable countries would have tried to fund them without taxation. You might get the odd place with oil wealth or a huge percentage of its income from tourism who could manage it. But the fact is that no large modern industrial country (capitalist or socialist) has managed to think of a way of paying for most of those things other than by taxation. You can keep on saying "all taxation is force" in the same way that some socialists say "all capital is theft" - but saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. The test of the validity of your argument is whether you can get a majority of people to agree with you. If you can't do that then it is pointless expecting people to switch from a taxation system to whatever it is you propose.What happens to me if i stop paying taxes ?.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 17:28:23 GMT
But the possibilities are not endless. If they were endless then several sizeable countries would have tried to fund them without taxation. You might get the odd place with oil wealth or a huge percentage of its income from tourism who could manage it. But the fact is that no large modern industrial country (capitalist or socialist) has managed to think of a way of paying for most of those things other than by taxation. You can keep on saying "all taxation is force" in the same way that some socialists say "all capital is theft" - but saying it over and over again doesn't make it true. The test of the validity of your argument is whether you can get a majority of people to agree with you. If you can't do that then it is pointless expecting people to switch from a taxation system to whatever it is you propose.What happens to me if i stop paying taxes ?. Either the baliffs or the courts will deal with you. But that is no different to if you are convicted of breaking any law. You assault someone - and the law will deal with you. You kill someone - and the law will deal with you. You steal from an individual - and the law will deal with you You refuse to contribute under a taxation system which society has decided is the way it wants to pay for services - and the law will deal with you. I've lost count of the laws I happen to disagree with - but I accept that if I do the crime, I may have to serve the time.
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 17:33:49 GMT
Money is just the latest form of control, it used to be religion, the fear of god and now it is cash, the fear of not having any.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 17:35:15 GMT
What happens to me if i stop paying taxes ?. Either the baliffs or the courts will deal with you. But that is no different to if you are convicted of breaking any law. You assault someone - and the law will deal with you. You kill someone - and the law will deal with you. You steal from an individual - and the law will deal with you You refuse to contribute under a taxation system which society has decided is the way it wants to pay for services - and the law will deal with you. I've lost count of the laws I happen to disagree with - but I accept that if I do the crime, I may have to serve the time. I understand what the law is right now, but it's not a just law, it doesn't make it moral or right, the first few would be me initiating violence and force on someone else, many Germans followed the law under Hitler, were they right to do so ? there's a contradiction there.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 17:42:39 GMT
Just to add, I'm not comparing anything to 1930's Germany, i was merely using it as an example of how not all laws written down on paper are right or moral, and they certainly don't suddenly become so just because a majority of people vote for it.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 17:49:53 GMT
Either the baliffs or the courts will deal with you. But that is no different to if you are convicted of breaking any law. You assault someone - and the law will deal with you. You kill someone - and the law will deal with you. You steal from an individual - and the law will deal with you You refuse to contribute under a taxation system which society has decided is the way it wants to pay for services - and the law will deal with you. I've lost count of the laws I happen to disagree with - but I accept that if I do the crime, I may have to serve the time. I understand what the law is right now, but it's not a just law, it doesn't make it moral or right, the first few would be me initiating violence and force on someone else, many Germans followed the law under Hitler, were they right to do so ? there's a contradiction there. But a majority of people might not enjoy paying taxes but they can't see a better way of doing it. So, they pay - and, importantly, they do so in the hope that, if they pay their taxes then the law will ensure that as many people as possible do so. There are plenty of complaints from the public about people getting away without paying their taxes - we get very few people saying "well done for cheating the system". Whether you pay your taxes is up to you - but I doubt if you'll get much sympathy from those of us who do pay our taxes AND help to pay for your kids education, your wife's childbirth and for your family's child allowance.
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Post by Northy on Jun 6, 2012 18:03:58 GMT
It wouldn't worry me if I had had a private pension - I've always been a saver and investor since I started work so I would have taken one out if I had needed to but I din't need to so I stuck with the pension provided. But you still haven't explained how a state without taxes pays for the Police, the armed forces, government (even minimal governement "lite" such as you want) the courts, mental health services, prisons, education for the poor - and for everything else if people like me are not paying taxes towards it. You were very wise to be a saver, shame there weren't/aren't more people who think like that. Although the government/central bank hasn't made it particularly preferable to save in recent years. For me those questions are irrelevant and I can't answer them because i don't know, i don't have a crystal ball, the possibilities are endless, but people value those things quite highly so they would get done, again, i don' want to keep repeating myself, but I believe taxation is force (if you don't pay you go to jail or possibly worse if you resist enough, i mean comon, it just is! think about it), all other questions are a side issue, i don't have the right to take the fruits of someones labor and give it to someone else at the point of a gun, or the threat of incarceration, lets free the slaves first, then figure out how things will work. are you a gypo?
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Post by mistersausage on Jun 6, 2012 19:32:25 GMT
Anyway the Jubilee was all shit
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Post by starkiller on Jun 6, 2012 19:36:53 GMT
Income Tax is used almost entirely to pay off a private banking cartel who produce money from thin air (fiat currency) and charge the Government interest on it (usury).
The Government does not issue its own currency. Because of interest, the currency is therefore issued as debt which will never be paid off because there can never be enough money in the system to pay off the debt PLUS interest. Debt = control & slavery.
You were sold into slavery through your birth certificate to pay off this debt and the Government uses you as collateral.
That, my friends, in a nutshell, is the system we are in and why life is the way it is.
It is not a law of physics. It is man-made control system produced by a Private Corporation to enslave you.
And Governments are under control of this system too (or have folk with vested interests in it).
It took me too long to find this out.
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild Banking System.
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and money system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." Henry Ford
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Post by mistersausage on Jun 6, 2012 20:15:59 GMT
Anyway, as I said, the Jubilee was all shit
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Post by starkiller on Jun 6, 2012 21:11:53 GMT
Anyway, as I said, the Jubilee was all shit Correct. And the Royals need to start mating outside of their own gene pool because they are right ugly fuckers.
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Post by Northy on Jun 7, 2012 18:34:10 GMT
Anyway, as I said, the Jubilee was all shit Correct. And the Royals need to start mating outside of their own gene pool because they are right ugly fuckers. kate middleton? Diane did (allegedly ) and produced Harry, he's worse than em all
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Post by starkiller on Jun 8, 2012 1:57:59 GMT
Starkiller - be thankful that we do live in a democracy. It might not be perfect (what system is) but the day a majority of the British people agree with your views and vote for a Republic in a referendum is the day we'll have a republic and no Monarchy. Rather than coming out with crap about the Queen being worth £17 trillion, you'd be better trying to win the argument with a few facts and figures that will stand up to scrutiny. I notice that your republican friends held a demo on the day of the river pageant. Perhaps if more than 100 had turned up you'd be in a stronger position to win friends and influence people. How can having a Royal Family be democracy? As for majority votes and a referendum, do you seriously believe the system gives a fuck about majority opinion and would hold a referendum? A vote on the EU dictatorship, anyone?
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Post by Northy on Jun 8, 2012 4:55:33 GMT
Starkiller - be thankful that we do live in a democracy. It might not be perfect (what system is) but the day a majority of the British people agree with your views and vote for a Republic in a referendum is the day we'll have a republic and no Monarchy. Rather than coming out with crap about the Queen being worth £17 trillion, you'd be better trying to win the argument with a few facts and figures that will stand up to scrutiny. I notice that your republican friends held a demo on the day of the river pageant. Perhaps if more than 100 had turned up you'd be in a stronger position to win friends and influence people. How can having a Royal Family be democracy? As for majority votes and a referendum, do you seriously believe the system gives a fuck about majority opinion and would hold a referendum? A vote on the EU dictatorship, anyone? voting for UKIP has been available the last couple of general elections hasn't it?
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Post by aligator on Jun 8, 2012 7:22:54 GMT
Anyway, as I said, the Jubilee was all shit I heard (heard! lol) you the first time, ;D
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