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Post by Northy on Jun 6, 2012 12:33:38 GMT
you keep telling me I've been brainwashed, I haven't, if I don't like something then I won't agree with it or like it, I have a free mind and speech to do it the last sycophantic nutter who spouted his beliefs was somebody like Hitler, don't go there. Just because you quote some german bloke doesn't mean he's right.
The queen has no political powers, she will sign what parliament agrees and gives her to sign.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 12:36:54 GMT
Starkiller - be thankful that we do live in a democracy. It might not be perfect (what system is) but the day a majority of the British people agree with your views and vote for a Republic in a referendum is the day we'll have a republic and no Monarchy. Rather than coming out with crap about the Queen being worth £17 trillion, you'd be better trying to win the argument with a few facts and figures that will stand up to scrutiny. I notice that your republican friends held a demo on the day of the river pageant. Perhaps if more than 100 had turned up you'd be in a stronger position to win friends and influence people.
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 12:45:46 GMT
People all over the world are brainwashed by the powers that be. Americans signing the National anthem before school everyday, Japanese worshiping the Emperor, Cult leaders getting people to kill themselves, religions getting people to fight each other, I remember people in the country saying The Diana was the most beautiful woman on the planet (whatever happened to her). It happens all over the world.
What I kept thinking about this weekend was that when we are shown pictures of North Korea we laugh at them/feel sorry for them for waving, marching of whatever at their beloved leader, but I wonder how the TV pictures of the crowds in the Mall looked to them ???
The Queen has done a good job. The question for me is does she represent me or does she represent a class system that keeps ordinary people like me in their place ?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 12:47:49 GMT
Diana died in a car crash in Paris, otw!
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 12:51:30 GMT
Diana died in a car crash in Paris, otw! You would have thought that would have been in the News
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 12:54:17 GMT
Diana died in a car crash in Paris, otw! You would have thought that would have been in the News It was suppressed because the Duke of Edinburgh knew more than he should have done about it - according to the owner of some London football club. ;D
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Post by starkiller on Jun 6, 2012 12:58:43 GMT
"And no comment from anyone about the Queen signing away this nation in EU Treaties?" You really haven't understood what a Constitutional Monarchy means, have you? 1. The people elect MPs - we can argue about the method of election but that is another argument. 2. MPs vote on legislative Bills - on Europe and host of other things 3. The Queen signs that legislation into Acts of law - AS SHE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY BOUND TO DO. You might as well blame the printers who print the Acts as the Monarch who signs them. And you haven't got the fact that, amongst other things, the Queen has the power to: dismiss ministers and the government, dissolve Parliament and call new elections, refuse legislation passed by Parliament and to advise and warn her people. The treaties with the EU are flagrant abuse of the Constitution which forbids union with a foreign power and the Queen had the power to halt this. Parliament voted against people of this country getting a vote on this. There is a sneaky plan to break up Europe into powerless regions, this will be largely kept off the front pages until it's too late. These links are already being made in a military sense with France and there is further evidence of this link in this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17893296 - don't expect the full truth in this coverage. My point is being proud to be British is, amongst other things, about saving this country from complete foreign takeover and is not about blindly waving a flag.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 13:03:44 GMT
"And no comment from anyone about the Queen signing away this nation in EU Treaties?" You really haven't understood what a Constitutional Monarchy means, have you? 1. The people elect MPs - we can argue about the method of election but that is another argument. 2. MPs vote on legislative Bills - on Europe and host of other things 3. The Queen signs that legislation into Acts of law - AS SHE IS CONSTITUTIONALLY BOUND TO DO. You might as well blame the printers who print the Acts as the Monarch who signs them. And you haven't got the fact that, amongst other things, the Queen has the power to: dismiss ministers and the government, dissolve Parliament and call new elections, refuse legislation passed by Parliament and to advise and warn her people. The treaties with the EU are flagrant abuse of the Constitution which forbids union with a foreign power and the Queen had the power to halt this. Parliament voted against people of this country getting a vote on this. There is a sneaky plan to break up Europe into powerless regions, this will be largely kept off the front pages until it's too late. These links are already being made in a military sense with France and there is further evidence of this link in this: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17893296My point is being proud to be British is saving this country from complete foreign takeover is not about waving a flag. Speaking purely personally, I think you are talking tripe. But if you can persuade the majority that you are right, that's fine by me - I'll abide by the people's democratic decision. But, I still think you'd be better concentrating on a few provable facts and reasoned arguments - rather than coming out with stuff about the Queen's alleged £17 trillion fortune and the fact that she "owns" a sixth of the world's land mass. That simply turns people off - which is, presumably, not what you want. I support the monarchy not because I like the idea of inherited power but because I REALLY REALLY LIKE THE IDEA of a Head of State who is NOT involved in Politics - and if they manage to boost tourism that's a bonus. As to flags - I don't wave the union jack, I'm just not a flag waving type of person really (other than football matches) but I don't have a problem with people who do like to fly or wave my country's flag. And even I have to admit that the sights of all the flags in the Mall brought a lump to my throat. But that's because I'm a patriot not because I have been brianwashed.
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Post by starkiller on Jun 6, 2012 13:26:54 GMT
Call it "tripe" if you wish.
And proof that people see things in a different way - I understand why people might want to be in the Mall waving their flags at the monarchy but it all appeared rather disturbing.
And it's NOT because I don't love my country - I just want it given back to the people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 13:46:48 GMT
Call it "tripe" if you wish. And proof that people see things in a different way - I understand why people might want to be in the Mall waving their flags at the monarchy but it all appeared rather disturbing. And it's NOT because I don't love my country - I just want it given back to the people. When have the people ever had it?
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Post by Northy on Jun 6, 2012 14:13:19 GMT
Call it "tripe" if you wish. And proof that people see things in a different way - I understand why people might want to be in the Mall waving their flags at the monarchy but it all appeared rather disturbing. And it's NOT because I don't love my country - I just want it given back to the people. it appeared disturbing to you, everybody else was enjoying it, well you and sausage and as LP said, some decent hard facts not innuendo's and sneaky stories may have more people taking note
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 14:31:05 GMT
It's ironic that a lot of the snobbery surrounding this jubilee is coming from the anti royalists, which is a shame, because I am in favour of doing away with the royal family, but I don't think calling royalists "sheep" and "brainwashed" is helping the cause.
My bottom line is this, if you want the royal family to remain as some sort of tourist attraction, fine, then YOU pay for it! the moment you introduce force into the equation is the moment freedom takes the exit, I shouldn't be forced to pay for something i disagree with, and that goes for every government program.
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Post by Northy on Jun 6, 2012 14:39:59 GMT
It's ironic that a lot of the snobbery surrounding this jubilee is coming from the anti royalists, which is a shame, because I am in favour of doing away with the royal family, but I don't think calling royalists "sheep" and "brainwashed" is helping the cause. My bottom line is this, if you want the royal family to remain as some sort of tourist attraction, fine, then YOU pay for it! the moment you introduce force into the equation is the moment freedom takes the exit, I shouldn't be forced to pay for something i disagree with, and that goes for every government program. It is the freedom of democracy that gives the people the vote and the majority decisions wins, if you don't agree with democracy, go to Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea and tell them you shouldn't pay your taxes
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 14:43:12 GMT
It's ironic that a lot of the snobbery surrounding this jubilee is coming from the anti royalists, which is a shame, because I am in favour of doing away with the royal family, but I don't think calling royalists "sheep" and "brainwashed" is helping the cause. My bottom line is this, if you want the royal family to remain as some sort of tourist attraction, fine, then YOU pay for it! the moment you introduce force into the equation is the moment freedom takes the exit, I shouldn't be forced to pay for something i disagree with, and that goes for every government program. It is the freedom of democracy that gives the people the vote and the majority decisions wins, if you don't agree with democracy, go to Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea and tell them you shouldn't pay your taxes All that is fine, am i allowed to disagree with you ?.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 14:46:09 GMT
It's ironic that a lot of the snobbery surrounding this jubilee is coming from the anti royalists, which is a shame, because I am in favour of doing away with the royal family, but I don't think calling royalists "sheep" and "brainwashed" is helping the cause. My bottom line is this, if you want the royal family to remain as some sort of tourist attraction, fine, they YOU pay for it! the moment you introduce force into the equation is the moment freedom takes the exit, I shouldn't be forced to pay for something i disagree with, and that goes for every government program. An interesting theory Serpico but I don't see how it would work. Say I don't want to pay for your children's education - can I opt out of some of my taxes? Say I disagree with child benefit (I don't, but say I did) can I opt out of paying some of my taxes? Say I want more frigates but no Trident? What do I do - pay more or less tax? The whole point about Society (not just Capitalism or Communism or any "ism" for that matter) is that collective decisions are made, hopefully by a majority, and everyone (not just the majority) should have to obey the same laws including paying taxes. If this doesn't happen nothing in the country works because the country can never raise enough money to pay to keep the economy working. Greece is an example of what happens when the population at large start to regard paying taxes as optional. You may not like the monarchy but so long as a majority of people do, then the government (rightly) can raise the taxes to pay for them.
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Post by Northy on Jun 6, 2012 14:48:21 GMT
It is the freedom of democracy that gives the people the vote and the majority decisions wins, if you don't agree with democracy, go to Russia, China, Cuba, North Korea and tell them you shouldn't pay your taxes All that is fine, am i allowed to disagree with you ?. only in a democracy
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 15:08:35 GMT
It's ironic that a lot of the snobbery surrounding this jubilee is coming from the anti royalists, which is a shame, because I am in favour of doing away with the royal family, but I don't think calling royalists "sheep" and "brainwashed" is helping the cause. My bottom line is this, if you want the royal family to remain as some sort of tourist attraction, fine, they YOU pay for it! the moment you introduce force into the equation is the moment freedom takes the exit, I shouldn't be forced to pay for something i disagree with, and that goes for every government program. An interesting theory Serpico but I don't see how it would work. Say I don't want to pay for your children's education - can I opt out of some of my taxes? Say I disagree with child benefit (I don't, but say I did) can I opt out of paying some of my taxes? Say I want more frigates but no Trident? What do I do - pay more or less tax? The whole point about Society (not just Capitalism or Communism or any "ism" for that matter) is that collective decisions are made, hopefully by a majority, and everyone (not just the majority) should have to obey the same laws including paying taxes. If this doesn't happen nothing in the country works because the country can never raise enough money to pay to keep the economy working. Greece is an example of what happens when the population at large start to regard paying taxes as optional. You may not like the monarchy but so long as a majority of people do, then the government (rightly) can raise the taxes to pay for them. Just because i don't think a centralised government should ration out goods and services doesn't mean I am against them, I am FOR education, I am FOR health care, but i am AGAINST the initiation of force, taxation is force, I'm not arguing for an optional taxation, I am for abolishing it. What would a country without taxation or government look like ? I have no idea, who would build the roads ? i have no idea, just like nobody knew who would pick the cotton when slavery was abolished, but that wasn't a good argument for continuing slavery, it was abolished because it was immoral.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 15:11:06 GMT
All that is fine, am i allowed to disagree with you ?. only in a democracy But i am NOT allowed to disagree, this is my point! I can wave a placard, sure, but what happens to me if i withdraw my financial support ?.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 15:13:17 GMT
By the way, I'm ready for the "what about somalia" crowd
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 15:16:52 GMT
An interesting theory Serpico but I don't see how it would work. Say I don't want to pay for your children's education - can I opt out of some of my taxes? Say I disagree with child benefit (I don't, but say I did) can I opt out of paying some of my taxes? Say I want more frigates but no Trident? What do I do - pay more or less tax? The whole point about Society (not just Capitalism or Communism or any "ism" for that matter) is that collective decisions are made, hopefully by a majority, and everyone (not just the majority) should have to obey the same laws including paying taxes. If this doesn't happen nothing in the country works because the country can never raise enough money to pay to keep the economy working. Greece is an example of what happens when the population at large start to regard paying taxes as optional. You may not like the monarchy but so long as a majority of people do, then the government (rightly) can raise the taxes to pay for them. Just because i don't think a centralised government should ration out goods and services doesn't mean I am against them, I am FOR education, I am FOR health care, but i am AGAINST the initiation of force, taxation is force, I'm not arguing for an optional taxation, I am for abolishing it. What would a country without taxation or government look like ? I have no idea, who would build the roads ? i have no idea, just like nobody knew who would pick the cotton when slavery was abolished, but that wasn't a good argument for continuing slavery, it was abolished because it was immoral. But when slavery was being debated with a view to abolition everyone knew that if/when it happened the work would be done by paid labour so a successor system was quite clear. As far as I know no large country (and precious few small ones) have found a way of running an economy without taxation. Don't you think it would be a good idea to work out an alternative (and put it to the vote) before talking about scrapping the existing system. My parents (and possibly yours?) remembered the days before the NHS. There are still ineqalities in health care between rich and poor - but they are nowhere near as bad as they were in the days before we had universal health care paid for out of taxation. I can count many members of my family pre WW2 who died very young because we didn't have a health care system free at the point of use.
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 15:18:08 GMT
The problem with a democracy is that like everything else it is open to abuse. From manipulation by the media to finance from large companies to wealthy 'off shore' donors it still puts the power in the hands of the few.
My favourite sign was on a wall of a canal near Amsterdam station, it read "the abuse of power comes as no surprise"
Marketing budgets triumph over thinking for most people. That's how the world works.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 15:33:40 GMT
Just because i don't think a centralised government should ration out goods and services doesn't mean I am against them, I am FOR education, I am FOR health care, but i am AGAINST the initiation of force, taxation is force, I'm not arguing for an optional taxation, I am for abolishing it. What would a country without taxation or government look like ? I have no idea, who would build the roads ? i have no idea, just like nobody knew who would pick the cotton when slavery was abolished, but that wasn't a good argument for continuing slavery, it was abolished because it was immoral. But when slavery was being debated with a view to abolition everyone knew that if/when it happened the work would be done by paid labour so a successor system was quite clear. As far as I know now large country (and precious few small ones) have found a way of running an economy without taxation. Don't you think it would be a good idea to work out an alternative (and put it to the vote) before talking about scrapping the existing system. My parents (and possibly yours?) remember the days before the NHS. There are still ineqalities in health care between rich and poor - but they are nowhere near as bad as they were in the days before we had universal health care paid for out of taxation. I can count many members of my family pre WW2 who died very young because we didn't have an health care system free at the point of use. Democracy is mob rule, just because a majority of people want something doesn't mean it's right or moral to do it, Hitler was voted in with a majority vote. health care isn't free, someone will pay for it (now or future generations), sure you can put higher taxes on the rich, but there's consequences to all of this, the rich do most of the investing, they create the jobs, all they would do is lay off a bunch of people to make up for it, then you'll have higher unemployment, which is horrible for the poor. I also believe a free market is the best way to get cost of goods down, there's not a system in the world that beats real free market capitalism for lowering prices, the NHS needs abolishing, why are we still rationing health care ?. Again, my bottom line is that I am against the initiation of force, how could i support the tax system without being in favour of force ? impossible, it's inherent in the system.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 15:44:32 GMT
So how would people who were severely disabled survive? Presumably many of them wouldn't? How would the poor pay for their education? As we have seen with University Tuition fees - education doesn't come cheap.
How would you pay for Defence or the Police? Would I buy the odd bullet as and when I had some spare change? If my child was murdered would I go to the Police and ask them how much I had to pay them for them to try to find the killer?
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Post by offthewall on Jun 6, 2012 16:07:28 GMT
So how would people who were severely disabled survive? Presumably many of them wouldn't? How would the poor pay for their education? As we have seen with University Tuition fees - education doesn't come cheap. How would you pay for Defence or the Police? Would I buy the odd bullet as and when I had some spare change? If my child was murdered would I go to the Police and ask them how much I had to pay them for them to try to find the killer? Think of the savings Lakeland
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 16:12:29 GMT
So how would people who were severely disabled survive? Presumably many of them wouldn't? How would the poor pay for their education? As we have seen with University Tuition fees - education doesn't come cheap. How would you pay for Defence or the Police? Would I buy the odd bullet as and when I had some spare change? If my child was murdered would I go to the Police and ask them how much I had to pay them for them to try to find the killer? We're back to asking who would pick the cotton, it's the wrong question, is force right or wrong ? that is the question, if you think i should be thrown into a cage for disagreeing with you then we don't live in a free country. I don't have the answers for those questions, just like someone back in the days of slavery didn't know combine harvesters and tractors would be invented, but if people want those things they would get done. In a truely free market Why would a health care centre shut out a potentially massive portion of their customer base (lower income families) ? we know competition pushes prices down, and they would run on their reputation, the NHS has no reason to run efficiently, the people have no option but to use it (the NHS pushes up the price of going private), and the NHS has no cope for expansion, it runs on a rationed budget, go over it and it's good night Grandma . You want a model for this, look at lazer eye surgery in America, it's one of the only parts of health care untouched by the government and it's as cheap as chips. As for disabled people, there would be much more scope for charity, we're already a very generous country, without taxes people would have more money to do as they please with, most disabled people have familes, they would consequently have more money to look after them with, again, I don't pretend to have all the answers.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 16:13:25 GMT
So how would people who were severely disabled survive? Presumably many of them wouldn't? How would the poor pay for their education? As we have seen with University Tuition fees - education doesn't come cheap. How would you pay for Defence or the Police? Would I buy the odd bullet as and when I had some spare change? If my child was murdered would I go to the Police and ask them how much I had to pay them for them to try to find the killer? Think of the savings Lakeland Bugger the savings - I'm more worried about my income as BOTH my pensions are paid for by the taxpayer! ;D
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 16:19:34 GMT
So how would people who were severely disabled survive? Presumably many of them wouldn't? How would the poor pay for their education? As we have seen with University Tuition fees - education doesn't come cheap. How would you pay for Defence or the Police? Would I buy the odd bullet as and when I had some spare change? If my child was murdered would I go to the Police and ask them how much I had to pay them for them to try to find the killer? We're back to asking who would pick the cotton, it's the wrong question, is force right or wrong ? that is the question, if you think i should be thrown into a cage for disagreeing with you then we don't live in a free country. I don't have the answers for those questions, just like someone back in the days of slavery didn't know combine harvesters and tractors would be invented, but if people want those things they would get done. In a truely free market Why would a health care centre shut out a potentially massive portion of their customer base (lower income families) ? we know competition pushes prices down, and they would run on their reputation, the NHS has no reason to run efficiently, the people have no option but to use it (the NHS pushes up the price of going private), and the NHS has no cope for expansion, it runs on a rationed budget, go over it and it's good night Grandma . You want a model for this, look at lazer eye surgery in America, it's one of the only parts of health care untouched by the government and it's as cheap as chips. Why would I want you thrown into a cage for disagreeing with me? I'm as against force as you are - although, unlike you, I don't think taxation is "force" just an unfortunate necessity in a complex modern society. That isn't to say that everything should be provided by the State - I'm not a socialist. Your comments about cheap laser eye surgery are worth considering. But so are the appalling health problems and short life expectancies of some of the poor without insurance in the USA. And, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the USA, one of the most heavily armed countries in the world, (albeit with some of the cheapest private eye surgery) pay for its armed forces out of taxation?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jun 6, 2012 16:28:02 GMT
Incidentally, for all its problems the cost of health care per person treated in the UK is a fraction of the (largely private) health system in the USA. Some of that may be accounted for by better or more sophisticated treatment but evena lot of bog standard stuff works out cheaper per head in the NHS.
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Post by serpico on Jun 6, 2012 16:30:19 GMT
I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a anarcho-capitalist rant, we're getting off subject a bit, but how can you say taxation isn't force ? it's the very definition, if i don't pay taxes I will be put inside a government cage, or worse, if i resist enough I'll probably be shot or electrocuted with a stun gun.
Also, most of your taxes now go to the huge bureaucracy and payment on the interest of the debt, and those pensions you paid into don't even exist, it's merely money stolen from future generations, they spent your pension, part of it was literally dropped into the middle of the desert (otherwise known as Iraq and Afghanistan).
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Post by 606Stokie on Jun 6, 2012 16:31:09 GMT
Proud to be British.. right when the family is german... and their money can go towards things like the NHS.. Glad its over and the human tourist attraction can go and disapear till next year... Think of all the taxes when we are in a recession..
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