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Post by knowingeye on Apr 27, 2012 10:04:16 GMT
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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 27, 2012 10:06:36 GMT
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 27, 2012 10:19:11 GMT
It'll be sad to see such a massive institution as Glasgow Rangers go to the wall, but with each passing day it looks to be more and more inevitable.
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 10:22:09 GMT
Why sad? Essentially they were cheating and if the SFA does nothing about it all clubs will just decide they may as well just spend money they don't have.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Apr 27, 2012 10:23:02 GMT
To me, Ticketus and their original deal with Whyte, seemed part of the problem not part of the solution. I'm not at all certain that Ticketus pulling out of a deal with the consortium is necessarily a bad thing for Rangers' future.
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 10:30:31 GMT
I'd also add that I thought Ally McCoist's demand that the members of the SFA panel be named is as good as asking for somebody to be attacked and maybe even get killed. That may not have been his intention, but he'll have been in Scottish football for long enough to know how some idiots up there behave.
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 27, 2012 10:30:43 GMT
Why sad? Essentially they were cheating and if the SFA does nothing about it all clubs will just decide they may as well just spend money they don't have. I'm just saying that the outcome will be a sad loss to football and the millions of fans who support and follow Glasgow Rangers. I don't condone cheating and spending way beyond your means either by the way!
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 10:38:06 GMT
I don't think it will. It's a huge kick in the teeth but the club won't disappear, they'll be back and maybe a few lessons will have been learned.
My sympathy lessens every time I hear McCoist or anybody else demanding the names of those 'responsible' knowing full well how some Rangers fans have behaved in the past. I'm also tired of the crap excuse that it was all the work of one man and the club has nothing to do with it. If they get away with that, football in Scotland is screwed.
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Post by Kenilworth_Stokies on Apr 27, 2012 11:02:19 GMT
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Post by thebet365 on Apr 27, 2012 11:23:21 GMT
I don't think it will. It's a huge kick in the teeth but the club won't disappear, they'll be back and maybe a few lessons will have been learned. My sympathy lessens every time I hear McCoist or anybody else demanding the names of those 'responsible' knowing full well how some Rangers fans have behaved in the past. I'm also tired of the crap excuse that it was all the work of one man and the club has nothing to do with it. If they get away with that, football in Scotland is screwed. You seem to be viewing this as another Leeds style of running, this isn't a chairman that's over spent and borrowed buying top players and relying on Champions league money to stay afloat. This is 1 man who has bought the club with someone elses money secured against future club income, then part of that money has disappeared out of the clubs funds, HMRC hasn't been paid since this man took over the club. A person who has already been excluded from being a director for 7 years which means he's had financial misgivings in the past. It is 1 mans fault, How much have Rangers spent on transfers in the last 5 years ? The whole takeover was corrupt yet the football club and it's fans are the ones who are gonna suffer because it looks like they'll be fielding a squad of youth players next year.
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Post by Gods on Apr 27, 2012 11:29:14 GMT
I read "pulls out" in the Subject as "pulis out", the malice levels on this board must be grinding me down mentally.
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Post by norman conquest on Apr 27, 2012 11:47:30 GMT
Seems it an ad only unregistered viewers can see, register and it more than likely vanishes
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 12:18:56 GMT
I don't think it will. It's a huge kick in the teeth but the club won't disappear, they'll be back and maybe a few lessons will have been learned. My sympathy lessens every time I hear McCoist or anybody else demanding the names of those 'responsible' knowing full well how some Rangers fans have behaved in the past. I'm also tired of the crap excuse that it was all the work of one man and the club has nothing to do with it. If they get away with that, football in Scotland is screwed. You seem to be viewing this as another Leeds style of running, this isn't a chairman that's over spent and borrowed buying top players and relying on Champions league money to stay afloat. This is 1 man who has bought the club with someone elses money secured against future club income, then part of that money has disappeared out of the clubs funds, HMRC hasn't been paid since this man took over the club. A person who has already been excluded from being a director for 7 years which means he's had financial misgivings in the past. It is 1 mans fault, How much have Rangers spent on transfers in the last 5 years ? The whole takeover was corrupt yet the football club and it's fans are the ones who are gonna suffer because it looks like they'll be fielding a squad of youth players next year. Rangers has been mismanaged for years and it has been an open secret that this has included the use of fake contracts and overspending over many years. All this guy did was bring the whole house of cards crashing down. The football club and its fans need to suffer otherwise the other Scottish clubs may as well all do what Rangers have spent ten years doing.
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Post by sovietonion on Apr 27, 2012 12:29:56 GMT
I don't think it will. It's a huge kick in the teeth but the club won't disappear, they'll be back and maybe a few lessons will have been learned. My sympathy lessens every time I hear McCoist or anybody else demanding the names of those 'responsible' knowing full well how some Rangers fans have behaved in the past. I'm also tired of the crap excuse that it was all the work of one man and the club has nothing to do with it. If they get away with that, football in Scotland is screwed. You seem to be viewing this as another Leeds style of running, this isn't a chairman that's over spent and borrowed buying top players and relying on Champions league money to stay afloat. This is 1 man who has bought the club with someone elses money secured against future club income, then part of that money has disappeared out of the clubs funds, HMRC hasn't been paid since this man took over the club. A person who has already been excluded from being a director for 7 years which means he's had financial misgivings in the past. It is 1 mans fault, How much have Rangers spent on transfers in the last 5 years ? The whole takeover was corrupt yet the football club and it's fans are the ones who are gonna suffer because it looks like they'll be fielding a squad of youth players next year. I've followed this pretty closely as I have a big interest in Scottish football. You could say it was a corrupt takeover of a corrupt club. The EBT scheme the way Rangers operated is already deemed illegal. Rangers are in court as an APPEAL not as a trial to prove they are responsible. That's already happened and they were found liable. As it stands: - They saved 50% on what everyone else paid to the taxman allowing the procurement and use of dozens of players they wouldn't have been able to finance otherwise
Winning of leagues and trophies affected Euro prospects of league/final losers. How much Champs League revenue from qualifiers have the runners up lost out on?
The presence of two contracts is illegal and would normally result in expulsion from the Scottish football system-700+ matches affected since 1998 and 18 trophies won.
Owing money to the taxman is forbidden in order to gain a UEFA license to compete in Europe. 2008 UEFA Cup final and inherent money spinners?
Chairman, CEOs, Managers and Players all benefiting to some extent. Rangers becomes a very attractive employer to swing those material decisions by those looking to work in this area.
Not buying players? Davis, Jelavic, Lafferty. 9m there. Although they still owe Rapid Vienna half the fee. This could have gone towards settling the potential bill from HMRC- it was spent chasing silver and the debt has since multiplied. They also struck a deal with Hearts to buy Lee Wallace for 1.5m. They paid 800,000 and knew full well that Hearts would swivel for the rest of the money.
It's organised deception, tax evasion, financial impropriety and cheating, whilst everyone else applied the rules trying to keep up. It's endemic at Rangers and has been for a long, long time previous to the current balloon of a chairman. Rangers are NOT just paying for the overnight shafting of a club by this total chancer in Craig Whyte. Why do you think the club cost a quid and the only person to buy them in years of being on the market was this con artist? The whole place is rotten and he's there to strip the assets before they get closed down. If he wins he makes megabucks, if he doesn't he loses a quid. Rangers in their present form are fucked either way. Some of Rangers real problems lie with the administrators, Duff and Phelps. This company initially appear not to know their arse from their elbows, but evidently present something more sinister. When the admins move in at clubs they do several things immediately: 1- Slash costs. Everything that can be flogged is. 2- Punt players. Sold/loaned/released. High earners and become youth very vulnerable. 3- attempt to find a solution in the interests of the creditors- a quick sale and a pence in the pound deal via a CVA if possible At Rangers, there's nothing left to slash. Rangers no longer get income from catering- they sold it for a short term bundle of cash. All merchandise goes to JJB- they sold those rights too. So players? One released to go south (Wylde) one effectively sacked (Celik) one plays for free (McCulloch). Players (including five on BIGGER contracts once Whyte arrived to make them more saleable assets) defer money till the end of the season. This means they need to get it eventually-well, soon- not forego it. So virtually nobody released by the admin. Admin are not allowed to increase debt. They did, however, try and sign Daniel Cousin on Five Grand a week, before the SFA banned it as they were already in admin and forbidden to sign new players while in that state. Rangers monthly turnover was 1.1 million before the arrived. After they arrived, their admin fees meant that costs were 1.2 million, landing another 100 grand per month on the debt which the club already can't service. There has been no quick sale or CVA forthcoming. The debt is massive (remember HMRC are hammering Portsmouth for under 2 million- more than 4 times that was owed by RFC in tax and NI alone THIS YEAR) and they are toxic as they are. If they get liquidated and start again, they are much more attractive. Debt free and shaky for a few years and will be starting again at the bottom, albeit with no history- that's all gone. They'll be as much Rangers as FCUM are Manchester United. So why would administrators want to actively asset strip, dawdle, make the debt more toxic and seemingly lead the club into extinction? The HMRC applied to have Rangers put in admin, but Rangers got wind of this and beat them to it allowing them a privilege- the ability to appoint and administrator of your own choosing. The Rangers chairman then appointed this present company, Duff and Phelps. Staff at D+P and Whyte go way back through a number of companies. It's almost like they're playing for time and banking on the money running out and being wound up or being closed down by the SFA....convenient eh? The administrators are also in court suing Collyer Bristow, the Lionel Hutz legal firm who gave Whyte shitty advice for the take over. The admins say that the lawyer in question, Gary Withey, was their man alone, making the legal company corporately responsible. In the same breath, they and the fans say that the transfer embargo etc is unfair as it's all Craig Whyte's fault and it's nothing to do with Rangers and therefore not a corporate responsibility. Pinning the blame on Whyte alone here is risible, they're on shaky ground and they know it. It may even look like they aren't in it together, but hey, see if they care as it buys them another delay. So there is a long history of corruption, they were taken over by a crook and even the admin process looks dirty and ultimately doomed to liquidate the club. Complaints about it not being fair on Rangers FC aren't really washing.
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Post by sovietonion on Apr 27, 2012 12:31:15 GMT
On a lighter note, I heard that Ally McCoist has not been invited to return on Question of Sport by the BBC as he demanded to know the identity of the mystery guest every week!
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Post by foster on Apr 27, 2012 12:37:25 GMT
You seem to be viewing this as another Leeds style of running, this isn't a chairman that's over spent and borrowed buying top players and relying on Champions league money to stay afloat. This is 1 man who has bought the club with someone elses money secured against future club income, then part of that money has disappeared out of the clubs funds, HMRC hasn't been paid since this man took over the club. A person who has already been excluded from being a director for 7 years which means he's had financial misgivings in the past. It is 1 mans fault, How much have Rangers spent on transfers in the last 5 years ? The whole takeover was corrupt yet the football club and it's fans are the ones who are gonna suffer because it looks like they'll be fielding a squad of youth players next year. Rangers has been mismanaged for years and it has been an open secret that this has included the use of fake contracts and overspending over many years. All this guy did was bring the whole house of cards crashing down. The football club and its fans need to suffer otherwise the other Scottish clubs may as well all do what Rangers have spent ten years doing. Surely being properly audited would have led to any financial misgivings being noticed. Not bothered if Rangers disappear at all. They get what's coming to them. Helping them would be an insult to a) other teams that have gone under, and b) other teams that manage their finances accordingly. The fans can always start a new Rangers club at the bottom of the Scottish league system.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2012 12:38:11 GMT
Who gives a flying f**k about Rangers or indeed Scottish football? At least if it all goes tits up there's no risk of Celtic & Rangers trying to get in the Prem!
Just get that fat wanker messiah Salmond to sort out the shit - he's got the answer to eveything else.
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Post by sovietonion on Apr 27, 2012 12:43:17 GMT
Who gives a flying f**k about Rangers or indeed Scottish football? At least if it all goes tits up there's no risk of Celtic & Rangers trying to get in the Prem! Just get that fat wanker messiah Salmond to sort out the shit - he's got the answer to eveything else. Salmond has already been warned off. He's made a few crass statements already and has had his fingers burned. Under FIFA law, the Scottish Government won't be allowed to help them as it's deemed 'State Aid' which is illegal and Scotland would be expelled from FIFA. You can't nationalise Rangers like the RBS. They really are fucked as it has to be private money. The only, genuine, real, safe option is a man wealthy enough to lay out up to £135 million to cover all eventualities. And that's before he invests a single penny in the team. They really are fucked.
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 27, 2012 12:46:00 GMT
Rangers has been mismanaged for years and it has been an open secret that this has included the use of fake contracts and overspending over many years. All this guy did was bring the whole house of cards crashing down. The football club and its fans need to suffer otherwise the other Scottish clubs may as well all do what Rangers have spent ten years doing. Surely being properly audited would have led to any financial misgivings being noticed. Not bothered if Rangers disappear at all. They get what's coming to them. Helping them would be an insult to a) other teams that have gone under, and b) other teams that manage their finances accordingly. The fans can always start a new Rangers club at the bottom of the Scottish league system. Ever thought about becoming a Agony Aunt foster? I wonder if you would be quite so damning if it were Stoke City in the same position as Glasgow Rangers and you were forced, through absolutely no fault of your own, to watch Stoke City Newco FC play at Rushall Olympic and Shepshed Dynamo of a Saturday afternoon? The only people who matter in all this are the fans and it seems to me that they're going to get a pretty raw deal whatever happens!
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 12:50:25 GMT
Were they complaining when they were spending money the club didn't have to win trophies and cheat other teams?
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 27, 2012 12:55:51 GMT
Were they complaining when they were spending money the club didn't have to win trophies and cheat other teams? Are you saying that every man jack of them knew all about the corruption and under-hand dealing that the clubs officials were carrying out in their name? No, I thought not and to be honest if our management team were taking us to the next level by such means, I doubt if we would think about the why's and where for's too deeply, do you?
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Post by foster on Apr 27, 2012 12:56:18 GMT
Surely being properly audited would have led to any financial misgivings being noticed. Not bothered if Rangers disappear at all. They get what's coming to them. Helping them would be an insult to a) other teams that have gone under, and b) other teams that manage their finances accordingly. The fans can always start a new Rangers club at the bottom of the Scottish league system. Ever thought about becoming a Agony Aunt foster? I wonder if you would be quite so damning if it were Stoke City in the same position as Glasgow Rangers and you were forced, through absolutely no fault of your own, to watch Stoke City Newco FC play at Rushall Olympic and Shepshed Dynamo of a Saturday afternoon? The only people who matter in all this are the fans and it seems to me that they're going to get a pretty raw deal whatever happens! If there are enough fans then I'm sure the club will survive in one capacity or another. Hey, at least I said that they could start a new club. It's not as if I said they could all go and support Celtic is it? Rangers fans are no different from other fans who's clubs have gone under. I am of the opinion however that somewhere a big club needs to go under in order to reinforce the dangers of malpractice to other clubs. I'd prefer it to be Man United, but in life you can't get everything you want.
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Post by greyman on Apr 27, 2012 13:03:10 GMT
Were they complaining when they were spending money the club didn't have to win trophies and cheat other teams? Are you saying that every man jack of them knew all about the corruption and under-hand dealing that the clubs officials were carrying out in their name? No, I thought not and to be honest if our management team were taking us to the next level by such means, I doubt if we would think about the why's and where for's too deeply, do you? It doesn't matter. The club was cheating on an institutional scale over many years and now it has had its comeuppance. I've got more sympathy with the fans of other clubs who were cheated by them. What you're essentially arguing is that clubs should be allowed to cheat and then get away with it because: WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE FANS?
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Post by sovietonion on Apr 27, 2012 13:06:22 GMT
Were they complaining when they were spending money the club didn't have to win trophies and cheat other teams? Are you saying that every man jack of them knew all about the corruption and under-hand dealing that the clubs officials were carrying out in their name? No, I thought not and to be honest if our management team were taking us to the next level by such means, I doubt if we would think about the why's and where for's too deeply, do you? I'd like to think we'd be out in the streets playing up holy fuck about the situation. Rangers were the establishment club for so long and the supporters are locked into such a 'we are loyal subjects' mentality. They never questioned or believed it could happen to them it until it was too late. McCoist lashing out and the whole 'it's not fair' saga is part of this ridiculous sense of entitlement. The deception and corruption isn't their fault. But not looking into Whyte, David Murray and the cronyism of the press who SHOULD have seen what was coming is criminal. At least the Tims mobilised themselves in 1994 when they nearly went to the wall. It comes to something when there were more people protesting outside Ibrox at the news Mo Johnstone had signed than there were when it was announced they had gone into administration. They're all standing around saluting the bloody flag as their Titanic is slipping under the waves!
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Post by foster on Apr 27, 2012 13:08:38 GMT
If I robbed a bank (unbeknown to everyone) and treated my friends and family to gifts, brought a bigger house and car than my neighbours and generally lived a life of luxury for a number of years, THEN got arrested and sent down.
Do you think I should be let off just because it would upset my friends and family?
Yes, I am shit at analogies.
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Post by stokelad2007 on Apr 27, 2012 13:10:52 GMT
bye bye rankers
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Post by y_oh_y_delilah on Apr 27, 2012 13:18:50 GMT
If I robbed a bank (unbeknown to everyone) and treated my friends and family to gifts, brought a bigger house and car than my neighbours and generally lived a life of luxury for a number of years, THEN got arrested and sent down. Do you think I should be let off just because it would upset my friends and family? Yes, I am shit at analogies. Yes you are, but having said that I did like your book. ;D
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Post by foster on Apr 27, 2012 13:25:19 GMT
If I robbed a bank (unbeknown to everyone) and treated my friends and family to gifts, brought a bigger house and car than my neighbours and generally lived a life of luxury for a number of years, THEN got arrested and sent down. Do you think I should be let off just because it would upset my friends and family? Yes, I am shit at analogies. Yes you are, but having said that I did like your book. ;D My book? ???
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Post by knowingeye on Apr 27, 2012 15:09:49 GMT
A TBK/BK coalition??
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Post by sovietonion on Apr 27, 2012 15:17:57 GMT
Only if a CVA gets agreed. And to get that, Ticketus and HMRC whose debt makes up the largest parts would have to agree to it. If they think that they can get more money by closing them down and gutting them to a shell, they'll push for that instead. But this all means NOTHING if Whyte won't sell.
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