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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 11:45:39 GMT
Personally I think our problems are more down to the fact that Ethers hasn’t been performing for a while and Pennant has been out of the team.
Walters hasn’t been at his best either but I have to agree with the title of this thread, “Crouch on a different level to the rest”
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 11:48:15 GMT
I agree that Jerome should have started more games at the expense of Walters but Crouch is a much much better option than Jones.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 20, 2012 11:48:56 GMT
Ethers having a dip in confidence and not having belief in himself has nothing to do with who is playing up front, who is playing in nets or Global Warming. When we were at our best last season we had Pennant AND Ethers both firing on all cylinders. We haven't had that this season and to blame Crouch or anyone else for that is pretty far off the mark. You certainly can't argue that Kenwyne "stroll in the park" Jones would dramatically change things for us. As I said, it isn't particularly about Jones, more that that the current front two isn't working. The wingers haven't been great, but they've had a harder job this season because teams have worked out how heavily we rely on them and the lack of pace up top makes it easier to mark them and gives them loss room to operate in. Read the stuff Royland and Paul Spencer have posted on this thread. I don't think you can really argue with what they're saying. Rob if we are looking to change the front 2, then the one player you dont want to bring in is Jones. We need someone who can give defenders something else to think about. Cameron Jerome is your man, take it or leave it. The fact that TP is not playing him is becoming pretty unjustifiable and very frustrating. People say we always look more dangerous with Pennant in the side..and its hard to argue with that...but we generally look a completely different prospect when Jerome is out there. He is the only player in the squad who can get behind defenders with his sheer pace.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 20, 2012 11:49:23 GMT
I agree that Jerome should have started more games at the expense of Walters but Crouch is a much much better option than Jones. Absolutely.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:50:11 GMT
Personally I think our problems are more down to the fact that Ethers hasn’t been performing for a while and Pennant has been out of the team. Walters hasn’t been at his best either but I have to agree with the title of this thread, “Crouch on a different level to the rest” We haven't looked great even with both wingers playing though.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 11:55:06 GMT
Personally I think our problems are more down to the fact that Ethers hasn’t been performing for a while and Pennant has been out of the team. Walters hasn’t been at his best either but I have to agree with the title of this thread, “Crouch on a different level to the rest” We haven't looked great even with both wingers playing though. I have to agree. I wouldn't blame other players for their poor form though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:55:56 GMT
As I said, it isn't particularly about Jones, more that that the current front two isn't working. The wingers haven't been great, but they've had a harder job this season because teams have worked out how heavily we rely on them and the lack of pace up top makes it easier to mark them and gives them loss room to operate in. Read the stuff Royland and Paul Spencer have posted on this thread. I don't think you can really argue with what they're saying. Rob if we are looking to change the front 2, then the one player you dont want to bring in is Jones. We need someone who can give defenders something else to think about. Cameron Jerome is your man, take it or leave it. The fact that TP is not playing him is becoming pretty unjustifiable and very frustrating. People say we always look more dangerous with Pennant in the side..and its hard to argue with that...but we generally look a completely different prospect when Jerome is out there. He is the only player in the squad who can get behind defenders with his sheer pace. As I said in that first sentence you quoted Nick, it isn't necessarily about Jones.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:56:23 GMT
We haven't looked great even with both wingers playing though. I have to agree. I wouldn't blame other players for their poor form though. It's a mixture of both.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 20, 2012 12:00:01 GMT
I don't claim to have the answers to our striking problem this season. I am though convinced we have a problem. We have scored 27 goals in 28 league games. This is 5 less than at the same stage last season, 1 less than the previous season and exactly the same as we'd scored after the same number of games in our first season in the Premier League.
An awful lot of money has been spent on strikers since promotion; have any of them really done better than Fuller?
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:01:11 GMT
It may be but its not a 50/50 mixture.
Too many games this season Ethers hasn't looked like he had any belief in beating his full back and getting the ball into the box - you can't blame the forwards for that.
Yes, Crouch isn't the quickest, but we knew that before we signed him. In addition to that, although KJ may possess more pace, how often does he use it? The KJ I've seen tends to amble around not doing a great deal and certainly wouldn't have made it any easier for the wingers.
The only thing that would have changed our fortunes this season would have been to include Jerome and Fuller more.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:03:57 GMT
I don't claim to have the answers to our striking problem this season. I am though convinced we have a problem. We have scored 27 goals in 28 league games. This is 5 less than at the same stage last season, 1 less than the previous season and exactly the same as we'd scored after the same number of games in our first season in the Premier League. An awful lot of money has been spent on strikers since promotion; have any of them really done better than Fuller? Crouch is a better forward than Fuller.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 12:14:43 GMT
It may be but its not a 50/50 mixture. Too many games this season Ethers hasn't looked like he had any belief in beating his full back and getting the ball into the box - you can't blame the forwards for that. Yes, Crouch isn't the quickest, but we knew that before we signed him. In addition to that, although KJ may possess more pace, how often does he use it? The KJ I've seen tends to amble around not doing a great deal and certainly wouldn't have made it any easier for the wingers. The only thing that would have changed our fortunes this season would have been to include Jerome and Fuller more. I can't really argue with any of that but I don't think the fact that we've made life harder for our wingers this season can be readily dismissed. We did know Crouch had no pace when we signed him but that doesn't mean the lack of pace up front hasn't been a problem. I'm not advocating playing Jones necessarily but when he's on form I do think the wide players benefit from the runs he and JW make. They certainly did at the back end of last season. Whelan did too. I guess we'll know more about how big an issue the wingers' lack of form has been if and when we sign some new ones.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 12:15:46 GMT
I don't claim to have the answers to our striking problem this season. I am though convinced we have a problem. We have scored 27 goals in 28 league games. This is 5 less than at the same stage last season, 1 less than the previous season and exactly the same as we'd scored after the same number of games in our first season in the Premier League. An awful lot of money has been spent on strikers since promotion; have any of them really done better than Fuller? Crouch is a better forward than Fuller. Yet in our system Fuller is far more effective. Or at least he was.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:17:11 GMT
I firmly believe that if we had 2 good wingers in form and starting the majority of games, Crouch would easily return 15-20 goals a season.
I can't say any of our other forwards would score as many.
Thats where I'm at.
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 12:18:44 GMT
I don't claim to have the answers to our striking problem this season. I am though convinced we have a problem. We have scored 27 goals in 28 league games. This is 5 less than at the same stage last season, 1 less than the previous season and exactly the same as we'd scored after the same number of games in our first season in the Premier League. An awful lot of money has been spent on strikers since promotion; have any of them really done better than Fuller? Most of that money would have been better spent on our midfield imo. You can't blame our strikers when they are starved of delivery during open play. I wouldn't touch our strikers in the transfer window this summer. I would focus all the attention of getting some more pace down the flanks and bringing in a decent CM who can work with WP (once he's stoke fit). Our CMs and wingers also need to score more goals. The supply to the front men hasn't been helped either by the form of both Ethers and JP.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 20, 2012 12:20:38 GMT
I firmly believe that if we had 2 good wingers in form and starting the majority of games, Crouch would easily return 15-20 goals a season. I can't say any of our other forwards would score as many. Thats where I'm at. He's well on course for 15 this season (all comps) even with all the fucking about thats been going on. Class act.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:22:21 GMT
I firmly believe that if we had 2 good wingers in form and starting the majority of games, Crouch would easily return 15-20 goals a season. I can't say any of our other forwards would score as many. Thats where I'm at. He's well on course for 15 this season (all comps) even with all the fucking about thats been going on. Class act. Agreed. If he gets 15 goals, given the shyte we've been producing this season, I think thats a pretty damn good return.
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Post by jstoke7 on Mar 20, 2012 12:24:29 GMT
I think it's more about the way we set up and play than the actual players we have got.
Regardless of the players we have, we just don't create anything from open play, it's not TP's style and now we have (pretty much) lost Fuller, we don't have a player who can skip past a few players and score a goal.
I've said before, we could have a dream team but with the way we set up it still wouldn't score a huge amount of goals.
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Post by lordb on Mar 20, 2012 12:26:46 GMT
I want to 1: endorse the view that Crouch is a class act
2: question the seemingly accepted consensus that Jerome is the answer. Jerome certainly offers a different option & he's scored some goals but he's not Pele.
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Post by roylandstoke on Mar 20, 2012 12:27:31 GMT
I don't claim to have the answers to our striking problem this season. I am though convinced we have a problem. We have scored 27 goals in 28 league games. This is 5 less than at the same stage last season, 1 less than the previous season and exactly the same as we'd scored after the same number of games in our first season in the Premier League. An awful lot of money has been spent on strikers since promotion; have any of them really done better than Fuller? Crouch is a better forward than Fuller. Don't want to get into a "my dad is bigger than your dad" row, and clearly Peter Crouch is a proven top class international footballer. However I am questioning his relative effectiveness in our manager's system. In 2008/9 Fuller scored roughly a goal every three games with support from a team that was largely made up of championship quality players battling relegation. Peter Crouch is, to his great credit, scoring at slightly better than 1 in 3 this year playing with what I would hope we can agree is a better supporting cast.( If we haven't improved from 2008/9 as a squad there is something drastically wrong). Personally I don't think we have improved as an attacking force this season. Playing upfront for Tony Pulis must be one of the toughest jobs in football. I believe it requires a certain skill set that the Peter Crouch , Jon Walters partnership is struggling to meet.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:31:38 GMT
Crouch is a better forward than Fuller. Don't want to get into a "my dad is bigger than your dad" row, and clearly Peter Crouch is a proven top class international footballer. However I am questioning his relative effectiveness in our manager's system. In 2008/9 Fuller scored roughly a goal every three games with support from a team that was largely made up of championship quality players battling relegation. Peter Crouch is, to his great credit, scoring at slightly better than 1 in 3 this year playing with what I would hope we can agree is a better supporting cast.( If we haven't improved from 2008/9 as a squad there is something drastically wrong). Personally I don't think we have improved as an attacking force this season. Playing upfront for Tony Pulis must be one of the toughest jobs in football. I believe it requires a certain skill set that the Peter Crouch , Jon Walters partnership is struggling to meet. For what its worth I think Fuller would have been a great foil for Crouch, its just a shame it appears to be the end of the road for Ric.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 12:35:56 GMT
I think it's more about the way we set up and play than the actual players we have got. Regardless of the players we have, we just don't create anything from open play, it's not TP's style and now we have (pretty much) lost Fuller, we don't have a player who can skip past a few players and score a goal. I've said before, we could have a dream team but with the way we set up it still wouldn't score a huge amount of goals. Yet at the end of last season we'd found a way to remedy that. That's disappeared this season.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:37:47 GMT
Probably because Pennant has only started and finished around 3 games all season and Ethers has been shit for the majority.
I actually think it might be about time to start playing KJ again…..the sun will be shining before we know it…….
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 12:46:15 GMT
I think it's more about the way we set up and play than the actual players we have got. Regardless of the players we have, we just don't create anything from open play, it's not TP's style and now we have (pretty much) lost Fuller, we don't have a player who can skip past a few players and score a goal. I've said before, we could have a dream team but with the way we set up it still wouldn't score a huge amount of goals. Just out of interest and since it seems we can't have it both ways, what would most people want to see happen. 1) Most posters want to see more expansive football, but that will not happen under Pulis if the past few transfer windows and seasons present an accurate indication. So in order for this to happen it would mean finding a new manager. This in turn would give us more attractive football and the likely purchase of FBs & wingers, but at the added chance of relegation? OR 2) Remain as we are, and hope that Tone has a mental breakdown and decides to adopt a more offensive strategy? Personally, I think most fans are unhappy with our style but through loyalty to Pulis (which is understandable as I am the same), live in misguided hope that one day he might actually loosen the teams shackles a little.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 12:51:58 GMT
28 Premier League games played so far this season: -
Pennant has had 52% of available game time, Ethers has had 69%.
Given that we have absolutely no natural cover or replacements whatsoever, those stats should be in the high 80s to really give ourselves a fighting chance.
As for KJ, he’s played around 1/3 (32%) of PL games in total. His return? 1 goal, 0 assists.
I know you have to take into account the fact he’s been in and out of the side and that he’s had a lot of sub appearances too but you can hardly argue he’s made enough of his pitch time and taken his opportunities.
Crouch for his part has 7 goals and 4 assists, albeit from a much better/longer run in the team.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 12:53:11 GMT
I think it's more about the way we set up and play than the actual players we have got. Regardless of the players we have, we just don't create anything from open play, it's not TP's style and now we have (pretty much) lost Fuller, we don't have a player who can skip past a few players and score a goal. I've said before, we could have a dream team but with the way we set up it still wouldn't score a huge amount of goals. Just out of interest and since it seems we can't have it both ways, what would most people want to see happen. 1) Most posters want to see more expansive football, but that will not happen under Pulis if the past few transfer windows and seasons present an accurate indication. So in order for this to happen it would mean finding a new manager. This in turn would give us more attractive football and the likely purchase of FBs & wingers, but at the added chance of relegation? OR 2) Remain as we are, and hope that Tone has a mental breakdown and decides to adopt a more offensive strategy? Personally, I think most fans are unhappy with our style but through loyalty to Pulis (which is understandable as I am the same), live in misguided hope that one day he might actually loosen the teams shackles a little. I just want to see us playing a bit more positively and not relying solely on set pieces.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 20, 2012 12:55:00 GMT
Rob if we are looking to change the front 2, then the one player you dont want to bring in is Jones. We need someone who can give defenders something else to think about. Cameron Jerome is your man, take it or leave it. The fact that TP is not playing him is becoming pretty unjustifiable and very frustrating. People say we always look more dangerous with Pennant in the side..and its hard to argue with that...but we generally look a completely different prospect when Jerome is out there. He is the only player in the squad who can get behind defenders with his sheer pace. As I said in that first sentence you quoted Nick, it isn't necessarily about Jones. I didnt mean to say you were suggesting it was about Jones. It just came out that way ;D
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 12:55:18 GMT
28 Premier League games played so far this season: - Pennant has had 52% of available game time, Ethers has had 69%. Given that we have absolutely no natural cover or replacements whatsoever, those stats should be in the high 80s to really give ourselves a fighting chance. As for KJ, heÂ’s played around 1/3 (32%) of PL games in total. His return? 1 goal, 0 assists. I know you have to take into account the fact heÂ’s been in and out of the side and that heÂ’s had a lot of sub appearances too but you can hardly argue heÂ’s made enough of his pitch time and taken his opportunities. Crouch for his part has 7 goals and 4 assists, albeit from a much better/longer run in the team. Again, I don't necessarily think Jones is the answer. But how well the team does and scores is more important than how many one striker scores. Last season's good attacking play in the last couple of months was down to the wingers, the front two and Whelan.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 20, 2012 12:56:06 GMT
I think it's more about the way we set up and play than the actual players we have got. Regardless of the players we have, we just don't create anything from open play, it's not TP's style and now we have (pretty much) lost Fuller, we don't have a player who can skip past a few players and score a goal. I've said before, we could have a dream team but with the way we set up it still wouldn't score a huge amount of goals. Just out of interest and since it seems we can't have it both ways, what would most people want to see happen. 1) Most posters want to see more expansive football, but that will not happen under Pulis if the past few transfer windows and seasons present an accurate indication. So in order for this to happen it would mean finding a new manager. This in turn would give us more attractive football and the likely purchase of FBs & wingers, but at the added chance of relegation? OR 2) Remain as we are, and hope that Tone has a mental breakdown and decides to adopt a more offensive strategy? Personally, I think most fans are unhappy with our style but through loyalty to Pulis (which is understandable as I am the same), live in misguided hope that one day he might actually loosen the teams shackles a little. Thats a fair point.
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 12:57:04 GMT
Just out of interest and since it seems we can't have it both ways, what would most people want to see happen. 1) Most posters want to see more expansive football, but that will not happen under Pulis if the past few transfer windows and seasons present an accurate indication. So in order for this to happen it would mean finding a new manager. This in turn would give us more attractive football and the likely purchase of FBs & wingers, but at the added chance of relegation? OR 2) Remain as we are, and hope that Tone has a mental breakdown and decides to adopt a more offensive strategy? Personally, I think most fans are unhappy with our style but through loyalty to Pulis (which is understandable as I am the same), live in misguided hope that one day he might actually loosen the teams shackles a little. I just want to see us playing a bit more positively and not relying solely on set pieces. So Pulis out then? Seems that it has to go one way or the other doesn't it. With TPs stubbornness, you can't seem to get the best of both worlds.
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