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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 19, 2012 10:37:35 GMT
With no pace at all up top opposition defenders know they can get in really tight to our wingers free from the fear of a striker running in behind. This means that the wingers always get the ball with their full back already on top of them. It is very hard to beat a player from this position; effectively a standing start. Similarly ,with no fear of a striker running in behind, the oppostion can squeeze up onto our CM as soon as we get the ball as they have no option of a quick ball into the channels. Once the opposition realise the limitations of our threat going forward our options for passing become tight passes to players who are already marked or hopeful long ball into Crouch, who gets the ball with no close support and without any hope of turning and into space or winning a throw or free kick(Fuller's ability to win throw ins in our first season was crucial). Crouch is a good player and was very successful with players like Defoe(pacy, out and out striker) and Modric( attacking midfielder). We don't and have those type of players. Experience tells me that TP will never pick those type of players. Would Steino have got a game under TP? Crouch will score goals from good crosses, but I don't believe we will develop as team with him as our main striker. I think we have gone backwards from the team that slaughtered Wolves, Bolton Newcastle and Arsenal least season. Excellent post - absolutely bang on the money throughout.
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Post by scruffyedlmember on Mar 19, 2012 19:33:20 GMT
To 3 players on the pitch to be fair, we shouldnt have got rid of him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 22:21:37 GMT
Royland bang on the money spurs fans liked crouch but many say they are a better team without him as even they defaulted to him too easily
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Post by bunnyscfc on Mar 19, 2012 22:24:46 GMT
just writing on this exact thing for Saturday's mag.
Royland has always been on the money- but his offering above is absolutely brilliant and puts many pundits to shame.
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Post by Okie Stokie. on Mar 20, 2012 8:21:16 GMT
With no pace at all up top opposition defenders know they can get in really tight to our wingers free from the fear of a striker running in behind. This means that the wingers always get the ball with their full back already on top of them. It is very hard to beat a player from this position; effectively a standing start. Similarly ,with no fear of a striker running in behind, the oppostion can squeeze up onto our CM as soon as we get the ball as they have no option of a quick ball into the channels. Once the opposition realise the limitations of our threat going forward our options for passing become tight passes to players who are already marked or hopeful long ball into Crouch, who gets the ball with no close support and without any hope of turning and into space or winning a throw or free kick(Fuller's ability to win throw ins in our first season was crucial). Crouch is a good player and was very successful with players like Defoe(pacy, out and out striker) and Modric( attacking midfielder). We don't and have those type of players. Experience tells me that TP will never pick those type of players. Would Steino have got a game under TP? Crouch will score goals from good crosses, but I don't believe we will develop as team with him as our main striker. I think we have gone backwards from the team that slaughtered Wolves, Bolton Newcastle and Arsenal least season. Excellent post - absolutely bang on the money throughout. Nonsense.So an international with 22 goals in 42 games for England doesnt improve us over someone who gets the odd game for Trinidad and hasnt ever been near the Champions League let alone appeared in a final and been one of the leading scorers for a couple of seasons? We've drawn with United and Chelsea and beaten Liverpool this season. I accept people don't like Crouch as a player that's their prerogative but the reason for justifying that absurdity are ludicrous.
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Post by bunnyscfc on Mar 20, 2012 8:25:00 GMT
okie, I agree with you.
Crouch was excellent Sunday, more so when I got back and watched it on TV. It's not a case of Crouch won't evolve us, it's more a case of TP probably won't.
The amount of times sunday when Crouch's touch was sublime and he had noone to pass to was absolutely criminal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 8:44:51 GMT
Excellent post - absolutely bang on the money throughout. Nonsense.So an international with 22 goals in 42 games for England doesnt improve us over someone who gets the odd game for Trinidad and hasnt ever been near the Champions League let alone appeared in a final and been one of the leading scorers for a couple of seasons? We've drawn with United and Chelsea and beaten Liverpool this season. I accept people don't like Crouch as a player that's their prerogative but the reason for justifying that absurdity are ludicrous. Okie, You're not listening are you? I'd say the majority of Stokies like Peter Crouch. He himself has done very well for us. But surely you can see something isn't working up front? We're not scoring as many goals, we're back to being entirely reliant on set pieces, creating pretty much nowt from open play. No team in the league has created less chances up front. Read what Royland posted and explain to me how any of that isn't true. We're beyond Crouch vs Kenwyne now. I like KJ but he hasn't done himself too many favours and if we replaced him with, say, Steven Fletcher in the summer I wouldn't shed too many tears. But Crouch and Walters isn't working. What Crouch has done for England is entirely irrelevant, much like what Tuncay did at Euro 2008 or against Manchester United was irrelevant, much like Eidur Gudjohnsen playing for Barca was irrelevant. What matters is how a player works in our system. As it stands, somebody needs to drop out of that front line because it isn't working and as a team we're going backwards.
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 9:17:42 GMT
Crouch is scoring goals, working hard and linking up play. Yes he is slow, we all know that. So what is Tone going to do about it?
To say that Crouch isn't going to develop our team is an injustice to the player. He played in a very successful Spurs side and for a number of top clubs that all play more evolved football than us.
It's not that we won't develop with Crouch as a player, it's that we won't develop any further with TP as a manager.
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Post by Okie Stokie. on Mar 20, 2012 9:29:47 GMT
Nonsense.So an international with 22 goals in 42 games for England doesnt improve us over someone who gets the odd game for Trinidad and hasnt ever been near the Champions League let alone appeared in a final and been one of the leading scorers for a couple of seasons? We've drawn with United and Chelsea and beaten Liverpool this season. I accept people don't like Crouch as a player that's their prerogative but the reason for justifying that absurdity are ludicrous. Okie, You're not listening are you? I'd say the majority of Stokies like Peter Crouch. He himself has done very well for us. But surely you can see something isn't working up front? We're not scoring as many goals, we're back to being entirely reliant on set pieces, creating pretty much nowt from open play. No team in the league has created less chances up front. Read what Royland posted and explain to me how any of that isn't true. We're beyond Crouch vs Kenwyne now. I like KJ but he hasn't done himself too many favours and if we replaced him with, say, Steven Fletcher in the summer I wouldn't shed too many tears. But Crouch and Walters isn't working. What Crouch has done for England is entirely irrelevant, much like what Tuncay did at Euro 2008 or against Manchester United was irrelevant, much like Eidur Gudjohnsen playing for Barca was irrelevant. What matters is how a player works in our system. As it stands, somebody needs to drop out of that front line because it isn't working and as a team we're going backwards. Oh I'm listening but I'm not hearing any sense.The argument seems to be lets go and find a big useless lump up front who suits our system. What we should be doing is finding players that complement a player who is patently more than capable of raising our standards. Other wise let's find the new Mama(God bless him) With 11 goals Crouch by the way patently does fit our system.He's excellent at set pieces and that's where we create our chances. Frankly there are a lot of defeatists on here who don't want quality players here because they'don't fit our system'. That is truly absurd.Crouch isnt Tuncay-a quality player who doesnt get played. TP has already said he's improving those around him both on the training pitch and the field of play. He obviously wants to improve the squad and then the system-otherwise Crouch wouldnt play. Some on here don't seem to want us to evolve. What we need is more players like Crouch-not less.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 9:29:54 GMT
Crouch is scoring goals, working hard and linking up play. Yes he is slow, we all know that. So what is Tone going to do about it? To say that Crouch isn't going to develop our team is an injustice to the player. He played in a very successful Spurs side and for a number of top clubs that all play more evolved football than us. It's not that we won't develop with Crouch as a player, it's that we won't develop any further with TP as a manager. Either way we're left with the same problem aren't we?
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Post by Okie Stokie. on Mar 20, 2012 9:32:44 GMT
Crouch is scoring goals, working hard and linking up play. Yes he is slow, we all know that. So what is Tone going to do about it? To say that Crouch isn't going to develop our team is an injustice to the player. He played in a very successful Spurs side and for a number of top clubs that all play more evolved football than us. It's not that we won't develop with Crouch as a player, it's that we won't develop any further with TP as a manager. Either way we're left with the same problem aren't we? How is having a quality international ever a 'problem'.That is plain daft.
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 9:34:11 GMT
Crouch is scoring goals, working hard and linking up play. Yes he is slow, we all know that. So what is Tone going to do about it? To say that Crouch isn't going to develop our team is an injustice to the player. He played in a very successful Spurs side and for a number of top clubs that all play more evolved football than us. It's not that we won't develop with Crouch as a player, it's that we won't develop any further with TP as a manager. Either way we're left with the same problem aren't we? Yep. We won't evolve until TP does. Pretty much every thread on here relating to players, tactics, etc all revert back to the same source.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 9:34:58 GMT
Okie, You're not listening are you? I'd say the majority of Stokies like Peter Crouch. He himself has done very well for us. But surely you can see something isn't working up front? We're not scoring as many goals, we're back to being entirely reliant on set pieces, creating pretty much nowt from open play. No team in the league has created less chances up front. Read what Royland posted and explain to me how any of that isn't true. We're beyond Crouch vs Kenwyne now. I like KJ but he hasn't done himself too many favours and if we replaced him with, say, Steven Fletcher in the summer I wouldn't shed too many tears. But Crouch and Walters isn't working. What Crouch has done for England is entirely irrelevant, much like what Tuncay did at Euro 2008 or against Manchester United was irrelevant, much like Eidur Gudjohnsen playing for Barca was irrelevant. What matters is how a player works in our system. As it stands, somebody needs to drop out of that front line because it isn't working and as a team we're going backwards. Oh I'm listening but I'm not hearing any sense.The argument seems to be lets go and find a big useless lump up front who suits our system. What we should be doing is finding players that complement a player who is patently more than capable of raising our standards. Other wise let's find the new Mama(God bless him) With 11 goals Crouch by the way patently does fit our system.He's excellent at set pieces and that's where we create our chances. Frankly there are a lot of defeatists on here who don't want quality players here because they'don't fit our system'. That is truly absurd.Crouch isnt Tuncay-a quality player who doesnt get played. TP has already said he's improving those around him both on the training pitch and the field of play. He obviously wants to improve the squad and then the system-otherwise Crouch wouldnt play. Some on here don't seem to want us to evolve. What we need is more players like Crouch-not less. And how are we evolving so far this season okie? You're the one who's apparently happy for us to rely entirely on set pieces when at the end of last season we were scoring plenty of goals from open play. How have we 'evolved' this season. Crouch in the past has thrived through having a fast strike partner and attacking midfielders playing off him. We don't provide him with either and TP doesn't do attacking midfielders. As you keep ignoring, as a team, only one side has scored fewer goals and nobody has created fewer chances. A big part of this is down to the reasons stated by Royland in his excellent post on this thread. I'd agree with you if there was any evidence that we were looking to evolve to play to Crouch's strengths, but we're playing the same old way and it's less effective.
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Post by Okie Stokie. on Mar 20, 2012 9:39:15 GMT
This is Stoke City.We can't buy three ,ten million pound quality players a season.I think signing Crouch was a symbol of TP trying to evolve,otherwise we would have for gone for a lump up front.
Evolution won't be achieved in a season but signing a proven quality international like Crouch is a step in the right direction-not the opposite.
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Post by manchesterpotter on Mar 20, 2012 9:43:16 GMT
Crouch is easily the best player we've had for many years.
When a Club like ours manages to pull off a small coup and sign a player of his quality, then it's up to us to adjust to his game and make the most of his qualities. Not expect him to de-evolve in order to fit in with our League 2 hoof it to the big man tactic.
Too many people think that he doesn't suit us, which is bollocks. He doesn't suit our manager.
Crouch doesn't need to adjust and evolve, Pulis does.
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Post by foster on Mar 20, 2012 9:47:58 GMT
Oh I'm listening but I'm not hearing any sense.The argument seems to be lets go and find a big useless lump up front who suits our system. What we should be doing is finding players that complement a player who is patently more than capable of raising our standards. Other wise let's find the new Mama(God bless him) With 11 goals Crouch by the way patently does fit our system.He's excellent at set pieces and that's where we create our chances. Frankly there are a lot of defeatists on here who don't want quality players here because they'don't fit our system'. That is truly absurd.Crouch isnt Tuncay-a quality player who doesnt get played. TP has already said he's improving those around him both on the training pitch and the field of play. He obviously wants to improve the squad and then the system-otherwise Crouch wouldnt play. Some on here don't seem to want us to evolve. What we need is more players like Crouch-not less. And how are we evolving so far this season okie? You're the one who's apparently happy for us to rely entirely on set pieces when at the end of last season we were scoring plenty of goals from open play. How have we 'evolved' this season. Crouch in the past has thrived through having a fast strike partner and attacking midfielders playing off him. We don't provide him with either and TP doesn't do attacking midfielders. As you keep ignoring, as a team, only one side has scored fewer goals and nobody has created fewer chances. A big part of this is down to the reasons stated by Royland in his excellent post on this thread. I'd agree with you if there was any evidence that we were looking to evolve to play to Crouch's strengths, but we're playing the same old way and it's less effective. Rob, what do you see as the solution here? You've pointed out a number of problems with the team, whilst repeating that TP isn't going to change anything. So we're effectively at a loss. If you were in charge what you recommend now in order to evolve?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 10:08:16 GMT
This is Stoke City.We can't buy three ,ten million pound quality players a season.I think signing Crouch was a symbol of TP trying to evolve,otherwise we would have for gone for a lump up front. Evolution won't be achieved in a season but signing a proven quality international like Crouch is a step in the right direction-not the opposite. Which doesn't explain why we're scoring less goals and creating less chances. The system hasn't changed in 9 years. I used to think we were looking to evolve but I don't think TP can. We've brought in an expensive supposedly 'quality' midfielder in each of the last three seasons and TP hasn't been able to bring himself to play any of them there for long. That isn't a good sign.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 10:09:00 GMT
Crouch is easily the best player we've had for many years. When a Club like ours manages to pull off a small coup and sign a player of his quality, then it's up to us to adjust to his game and make the most of his qualities. Not expect him to de-evolve in order to fit in with our League 2 hoof it to the big man tactic. Too many people think that he doesn't suit us, which is bollocks. He doesn't suit our manager. Crouch doesn't need to adjust and evolve, Pulis does. As long as TP is manager, what suits him and what suits us are one and the same thing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 10:10:19 GMT
And how are we evolving so far this season okie? You're the one who's apparently happy for us to rely entirely on set pieces when at the end of last season we were scoring plenty of goals from open play. How have we 'evolved' this season. Crouch in the past has thrived through having a fast strike partner and attacking midfielders playing off him. We don't provide him with either and TP doesn't do attacking midfielders. As you keep ignoring, as a team, only one side has scored fewer goals and nobody has created fewer chances. A big part of this is down to the reasons stated by Royland in his excellent post on this thread. I'd agree with you if there was any evidence that we were looking to evolve to play to Crouch's strengths, but we're playing the same old way and it's less effective. Rob, what do you see as the solution here? You've pointed out a number of problems with the team, whilst repeating that TP isn't going to change anything. So we're effectively at a loss. If you were in charge what you recommend now in order to evolve? Upgrades on the kind of central midfielder we have now, who can keep shape but regularly find another Stoke player and kick a few arses as well. Full backs who can help out the wingers going forward. Pace up top. Competition for the flanks.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 10:11:44 GMT
Crouch is class.
He is in a different league to KJ.
More ball into his feet = more success for us and Crouchy.
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Post by manchesterpotter on Mar 20, 2012 10:24:05 GMT
Crouch is easily the best player we've had for many years. When a Club like ours manages to pull off a small coup and sign a player of his quality, then it's up to us to adjust to his game and make the most of his qualities. Not expect him to de-evolve in order to fit in with our League 2 hoof it to the big man tactic. Too many people think that he doesn't suit us, which is bollocks. He doesn't suit our manager. Crouch doesn't need to adjust and evolve, Pulis does. As long as TP is manager, what suits him and what suits us are one and the same thing. Exactly. That highlights what the problem is here.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 20, 2012 10:32:08 GMT
Kenywyne Jones has featured in 30 games at some stage or other so far this season. Other than Norwich and Kiev, I'm struggling to think of any real influence he has had I'm struggling even further to recall me thinking thank Christ we have visibly more pace and mobility now Kenwyne's on the pitch.
Crouch and Walters doesn't quite work for reasons stated but Crouch and x is approximately a billion times better than kenwyne and x.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 10:37:01 GMT
Kenywyne Jones has featured in 30 games at some stage or other so far this season. Other than Norwich and Kiev, I'm struggling to think of any real influence he has had I'm struggling even further to recall me thinking thank Christ we have visibly more pace and mobility now Kenwyne's on the pitch. Crouch and Walters doesn't quite work for reasons stated but Crouch and x is approximately a billion times better than kenwyne and x. I don't necessarily disagree but then again we did look a much better attacking force last season than this season.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 10:51:14 GMT
You can’t blame Crouch for us not creating that much this season.
As a team we’ve been pretty dire at times and not created a great deal. Ethers has not been at his best for the majority and Pennant has hardly been in the team for months.
Trust me, we wouldn’t miraculously become a better team if KJ took Crouch’s position in the team.
What we need is a winger or 2 in the summer and a slight change in the managers tactics so we retain the ball a bit better.
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Post by Stokie Mcpot on Mar 20, 2012 10:58:55 GMT
Crouch is by far one of the best player we have.
I wonder though how TP's training routines will effect him in the end run, not particularly training passing, no respectable amount of training on shots. as much as I appreciate TP of course.
As far as the convo about crouch not being what stoke needs right now, I think it really depends on the flow of the game. We really need to be more flexible in how we start a game, we can't just keep shoving the same team out against everybody. Crouch needs to be put in when set pieces are our best bet to win. Walters needs to be put on the bench until he finds some form, perhaps a spell in the reserves until he can regain his confidence and eye for the net. and Jerome needs to get far more play than he's getting, FAR more. why Walters is ahead of him in the perm starting 11 baffles me at times.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:07:50 GMT
You canÂ’t blame Crouch for us not creating that much this season. As a team weÂ’ve been pretty dire at times and not created a great deal. Ethers has not been at his best for the majority and Pennant has hardly been in the team for months. Trust me, we wouldnÂ’t miraculously become a better team if KJ took CrouchÂ’s position in the team. What we need is a winger or 2 in the summer and a slight change in the managers tactics so we retain the ball a bit better. The wingers haven't been on form, but they haven't been helped by the lack of pace and space up front.
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Post by boothenender7 on Mar 20, 2012 11:19:16 GMT
i like crouchy alot but he has no 2nd gear and often cant move away from a marker and loses the ball. but his scoring record aint too bad.
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Post by superjonnywalters on Mar 20, 2012 11:25:43 GMT
You canÂ’t blame Crouch for us not creating that much this season. As a team weÂ’ve been pretty dire at times and not created a great deal. Ethers has not been at his best for the majority and Pennant has hardly been in the team for months. Trust me, we wouldnÂ’t miraculously become a better team if KJ took CrouchÂ’s position in the team. What we need is a winger or 2 in the summer and a slight change in the managers tactics so we retain the ball a bit better. The wingers haven't been on form, but they haven't been helped by the lack of pace and space up front. Ethers having a dip in confidence and not having belief in himself has nothing to do with who is playing up front, who is playing in nets or Global Warming. When we were at our best last season we had Pennant AND Ethers both firing on all cylinders. We haven't had that this season and to blame Crouch or anyone else for that is pretty far off the mark. You certainly can't argue that Kenwyne "stroll in the park" Jones would dramatically change things for us.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:33:19 GMT
The wingers haven't been on form, but they haven't been helped by the lack of pace and space up front. Ethers having a dip in confidence and not having belief in himself has nothing to do with who is playing up front, who is playing in nets or Global Warming. When we were at our best last season we had Pennant AND Ethers both firing on all cylinders. We haven't had that this season and to blame Crouch or anyone else for that is pretty far off the mark. You certainly can't argue that Kenwyne "stroll in the park" Jones would dramatically change things for us. As I said, it isn't particularly about Jones, more that that the current front two isn't working. The wingers haven't been great, but they've had a harder job this season because teams have worked out how heavily we rely on them and the lack of pace up top makes it easier to mark them and gives them loss room to operate in. Read the stuff Royland and Paul Spencer have posted on this thread. I don't think you can really argue with what they're saying.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Mar 20, 2012 11:44:37 GMT
I'm pleased my thread has developed such a debate. There are some fantastic points raised by all the posters above.
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