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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 8, 2012 8:39:40 GMT
that the managers left and the clubs fortunes then dropped. So it was nothing to do with the clubs in question having financial problems or their board appointing poor managers? Tell me, how many times have Fulham replaced their manager? Are they still a Premier League club? Wigan have had four managers since they've been in the Premier League and have lasted seven seasons, a great effort for a club of their size. Lack of money and/or poor managers cause teams to be relegated. Nothing more, nothing less. The greatest manager in our club's history resigned his post because he knew he had little chance of keeping the team in the First Division because our finances were so desperately poor. If and when Tony Pulis leaves (and if we're still a Premier League club) that will be the only reason we'll go down. This is a fair post. It would be daft to suggest that changing managers necessarily leads to relegation. However, I think the general point is that changing managers can increase the risk of appointing poor managers. I doubt any of the relegated clubs thought they were appointing poor managers. I think most (with some exceptions) would agree that for all his faults TP is very unlikely to get this club relegated. He has a system that can get results even when it isn't working very well and he loves a backs to the wall scrap. We could appoint a manager like O'Neil and we might see an uptick in results and performances for 18 months but then what happens should he decide to upsticks again? We then have another risk of appointing a new manager. Stability is everything. A while ago Coates was interviewed and he was talking about the ambition to keep the club in this league for 10 years (which I think would be the second longest period of topflight football we've ever had). I don't think there's any 'masterplan' beyond that. Every season helps establish us at the top table and repairs some of the damage caused by the 23 year absence. If we achieve that 10 season run and Coates makes sure that the roof of the Seddon is insured I'd be delighted even though the football may be poor from time to time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 8:52:53 GMT
It's been eight years! We've barely changed at all and if anything are going backwards in terms of our approach. its been 8 years and weve slowly developed into a premiership force, got to the fa cup final and are facing one of the biggest teams in the world in the knockouts of a major european competition. maintaining form during this season was always going to be difficult, lets not forget that we won four games on the bounce in the premier league for the first time either. we have got 3-4 players who need a rest (blame has to go to pulis for this one), recent form is surely down to players minds being focused on the valencia game, it was always going to be the case! its a new experience for many of the lads and im sure they are struggling to get up for games with the main event coming up. if huth hadnt have been wrongly sent off i doubt a thread like this would exist because i still think we would have won the game. We still weren't creating anything with 11 men on the pitch. If it was just an issue of form I wouldn't be worried. But you seem to be suggesting that the manager will very very gradually start to improve how we play and develop us. The evidence points to the opposite. Many of our problems this season (scoring less and creating less than the majority of teams in the league) are due to him fucking about with what didn't need fixing. That's what worries me. We've spent £20m to take a step backwards.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 8:54:23 GMT
So it was nothing to do with the clubs in question having financial problems or their board appointing poor managers? Tell me, how many times have Fulham replaced their manager? Are they still a Premier League club? Wigan have had four managers since they've been in the Premier League and have lasted seven seasons, a great effort for a club of their size. Lack of money and/or poor managers cause teams to be relegated. Nothing more, nothing less. The greatest manager in our club's history resigned his post because he knew he had little chance of keeping the team in the First Division because our finances were so desperately poor. If and when Tony Pulis leaves (and if we're still a Premier League club) that will be the only reason we'll go down. This is a fair post. It would be daft to suggest that changing managers necessarily leads to relegation. However, I think the general point is that changing managers can increase the risk of appointing poor managers. I doubt any of the relegated clubs thought they were appointing poor managers. I think most (with some exceptions) would agree that for all his faults TP is very unlikely to get this club relegated. He has a system that can get results even when it isn't working very well and he loves a backs to the wall scrap. We could appoint a manager like O'Neil and we might see an uptick in results and performances for 18 months but then what happens should he decide to upsticks again? We then have another risk of appointing a new manager. Stability is everything. A while ago Coates was interviewed and he was talking about the ambition to keep the club in this league for 10 years (which I think would be the second longest period of topflight football we've ever had). I don't think there's any 'masterplan' beyond that. Every season helps establish us at the top table and repairs some of the damage caused by the 23 year absence. If we achieve that 10 season run and Coates makes sure that the roof of the Seddon is insured I'd be delighted even though the football may be poor from time to time. Which is fine and all, but you'd think we'd start laying some kind of groundwork for the future if that was the case.
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Post by ted1965 on Feb 8, 2012 8:54:35 GMT
Firstly I can’t see PC making any changes in the foreseeable future but if for some reason he did then I don’t believe it would be the end of Premiership football because he made that change.
Many clubs have changed managers for various reasons either the manager himself decided he’d gone as far as he could or the boards got a little greedy and believed they could achieve something their club wasn’t ready for. I don’t see PC or his family making such a mistake. With the financial inequalities in the Premier League there is only so far a club like Stoke can actually go, then we hit the glass ceiling which starts about 7th in the league, though a top 10 finish is possible each year because from 8th down to about 15th the league is very even, in reality we are likely to finish somewhere along this line come May. I believe there are a number of managers capable of ensuring we would continue to finish somewhere between those positions. The real question we should ask, who would we be likely attract if the managers position was up for grabs and who would the owner likely see as a replacement, they may well be two very different lists.
As for style of play, as many have said they don’t want Barcelona style football, that’s not going to happen but we had the blueprint already taking shape at the back end of last season. I don’t remember anyone complaining about how we were playing then. 2 wingers, a functional middle of the park supplying the wingers and chances being created and goals scored. Bolton at Wembley was the culmination of some very exciting performances and that’s where people get frustrated, they see what we are capable of and now the blueprint seems to have been stored away and forgotten.
Everyone knows we need a couple of decent full backs who naturally take a position and hold it, when the opposition are attacking and who can join in when we are going forward. Cover for the wings because wingers are prone to injury and loss of form so you need options to keep the blueprint moving. We also require one centre midfielder who has enough energy to get past the forwards occasionally. A fox in the box would be nice but optional if our forwards are getting decent service from the wings.
So if you look at our side its pretty much a puzzle requiring 4 or 5 pieces to complete a pretty decent picture. So whether it was TP or a new manager the puzzle doesn’t require too many pieces it just requires the right pieces placed into the right gaps and we will be a pretty formidable side more than capable of finishing in the top 10.
All most people really want is for Tone to remember what brought us such good results and added more than enough excitement for anyone who craves both results and entertainment. Football in general isn’t a complicated game, its tactics, formations and the fear of failure that make it complex.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 8, 2012 9:38:13 GMT
This is a fair post. It would be daft to suggest that changing managers necessarily leads to relegation. However, I think the general point is that changing managers can increase the risk of appointing poor managers. I doubt any of the relegated clubs thought they were appointing poor managers. I think most (with some exceptions) would agree that for all his faults TP is very unlikely to get this club relegated. He has a system that can get results even when it isn't working very well and he loves a backs to the wall scrap. We could appoint a manager like O'Neil and we might see an uptick in results and performances for 18 months but then what happens should he decide to upsticks again? We then have another risk of appointing a new manager. Stability is everything. A while ago Coates was interviewed and he was talking about the ambition to keep the club in this league for 10 years (which I think would be the second longest period of topflight football we've ever had). I don't think there's any 'masterplan' beyond that. Every season helps establish us at the top table and repairs some of the damage caused by the 23 year absence. If we achieve that 10 season run and Coates makes sure that the roof of the Seddon is insured I'd be delighted even though the football may be poor from time to time. Which is fine and all, but you'd think we'd start laying some kind of groundwork for the future if that was the case. If you mean the academy, overseas scouting network and younger players I'd probably agree with you. I'm sure there are valid criticisms but I don't think we should panic too much.
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Post by Fred Ferret on Feb 8, 2012 10:14:12 GMT
Firstly I can’t see PC making any changes ... All most people really want is for Tone to remember what brought us such good results and added more than enough excitement for anyone who craves both results and entertainment. Football in general isn’t a complicated game, its tactics, formations and the fear of failure that make it complex. Fortunately, we have a pragmatic and steady hand owning the club. Totally agree with the last para.
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Post by french toast on Feb 8, 2012 18:31:02 GMT
its been 8 years and weve slowly developed into a premiership force, got to the fa cup final and are facing one of the biggest teams in the world in the knockouts of a major european competition. maintaining form during this season was always going to be difficult, lets not forget that we won four games on the bounce in the premier league for the first time either. we have got 3-4 players who need a rest (blame has to go to pulis for this one), recent form is surely down to players minds being focused on the valencia game, it was always going to be the case! its a new experience for many of the lads and im sure they are struggling to get up for games with the main event coming up. if huth hadnt have been wrongly sent off i doubt a thread like this would exist because i still think we would have won the game. We still weren't creating anything with 11 men on the pitch. If it was just an issue of form I wouldn't be worried. But you seem to be suggesting that the manager will very very gradually start to improve how we play and develop us. The evidence points to the opposite. Many of our problems this season (scoring less and creating less than the majority of teams in the league) are due to him fucking about with what didn't need fixing. That's what worries me. We've spent £20m to take a step backwards. yes but we had just bought ric on, had a winger on the pitch and were forced into another change where (wrongly) pulis took off pennant. the game is 90 minutes long not 40. in regards taking a backwards step in the way we play......i actually agree we are not playing as good football as we were in the final part of last season BUT that really isnt concerning me, it will come again, and it will be when tony stops being stubborn......he obviously still hasnt forgotten the drubbings we had earlier in the season and wants us to remain tight at the back (it was inevitabe that he would go back to basics) and who are we to say that he was/is wrong to do that? consistancy has been a problem all through this season and as much as it isnt happening still im sure tony wants to rectify this........do you really think he doesnt want us to win in style every week?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 18:42:31 GMT
We still weren't creating anything with 11 men on the pitch. If it was just an issue of form I wouldn't be worried. But you seem to be suggesting that the manager will very very gradually start to improve how we play and develop us. The evidence points to the opposite. Many of our problems this season (scoring less and creating less than the majority of teams in the league) are due to him fucking about with what didn't need fixing. That's what worries me. We've spent £20m to take a step backwards. yes but we had just bought ric on, had a winger on the pitch and were forced into another change where (wrongly) pulis took off pennant. the game is 90 minutes long not 40. in regards taking a backwards step in the way we play......i actually agree we are not playing as good football as we were in the final part of last season BUT that really isnt concerning me, it will come again, and it will be when tony stops being stubborn......he obviously still hasnt forgotten the drubbings we had earlier in the season and wants us to remain tight at the back (it was inevitabe that he would go back to basics) and who are we to say that he was/is wrong to do that? consistancy has been a problem all through this season and as much as it isnt happening still im sure tony wants to rectify this........do you really think he doesnt want us to win in style every week? I think he wants to sneak it 1-0 from a set piece with a clean sheet and doesn't give a shit about style. There's nothing particularly wrong with that (apart from it being a fairly joyless approach to football) if it's getting you results. But it isn't at the moment. Moreover, we are among the worst teams in the division when it comes to scoring and creating. The drubbings earlier in the season owed as much to him needlessly fucking about with the defence as anything else. We look better defensively without immobile tanks at right back. What worries me is this "once Tony stops being stubborn" business. Every fucking year he pisses about picking fuckwitted, negative teams and then finally gets round to picking the right one and hey presto, we look good and start winning. That's pretty backwards and doesn't bode well for any 'evolution'. Why should we keep giving him £20m a year if he's going to pick the least ambitious team he can every week for 2/3 of the season?
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Post by french toast on Feb 8, 2012 18:47:54 GMT
yes but we had just bought ric on, had a winger on the pitch and were forced into another change where (wrongly) pulis took off pennant. the game is 90 minutes long not 40. in regards taking a backwards step in the way we play......i actually agree we are not playing as good football as we were in the final part of last season BUT that really isnt concerning me, it will come again, and it will be when tony stops being stubborn......he obviously still hasnt forgotten the drubbings we had earlier in the season and wants us to remain tight at the back (it was inevitabe that he would go back to basics) and who are we to say that he was/is wrong to do that? consistancy has been a problem all through this season and as much as it isnt happening still im sure tony wants to rectify this........do you really think he doesnt want us to win in style every week? I think he wants to sneak it 1-0 from a set piece with a clean sheet and doesn't give a shit about style. There's nothing particularly wrong with that (apart from it being a fairly joyless approach to football) if it's getting you results. But it isn't at the moment. Moreover, we are among the worst teams in the division when it comes to scoring and creating. The drubbings earlier in the season owed as much to him needlessly fucking about with the defence as anything else. We look better defensively without immobile tanks at right back. What worries me is this "once Tony stops being stubborn" business. Every fucking year he pisses about picking fuckwitted, negative teams and then finally gets round to picking the right one and hey presto, we look good and start winning. That's pretty backwards and doesn't bode well for any 'evolution'. Why should we keep giving him £20m a year if he's going to pick the least ambitious team he can every week for 2/3 of the season? rubbish......the drubbings were down to the extra workload due to the europa. we are never going to agree, i think tony is the best man for the job unless jose fancies a few years at stoke ;D
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 18:51:11 GMT
I think he wants to sneak it 1-0 from a set piece with a clean sheet and doesn't give a shit about style. There's nothing particularly wrong with that (apart from it being a fairly joyless approach to football) if it's getting you results. But it isn't at the moment. Moreover, we are among the worst teams in the division when it comes to scoring and creating. The drubbings earlier in the season owed as much to him needlessly fucking about with the defence as anything else. We look better defensively without immobile tanks at right back. What worries me is this "once Tony stops being stubborn" business. Every fucking year he pisses about picking fuckwitted, negative teams and then finally gets round to picking the right one and hey presto, we look good and start winning. That's pretty backwards and doesn't bode well for any 'evolution'. Why should we keep giving him £20m a year if he's going to pick the least ambitious team he can every week for 2/3 of the season? rubbish......the drubbings were down to the extra workload due to the europa. we are never going to agree, i think tony is the best man for the job unless jose fancies a few years at stoke ;D How many of the players who played in the Europa started the thrashings? If you recall Woodgate's performances at centre back and Huth's at right back... I don't want Tony to go, I want him to stop fucking around and start playing his best team and building on what we had rather than going backwards.
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Post by french toast on Feb 8, 2012 19:20:31 GMT
rubbish......the drubbings were down to the extra workload due to the europa. we are never going to agree, i think tony is the best man for the job unless jose fancies a few years at stoke ;D How many of the players who played in the Europa started the thrashings? If you recall Woodgate's performances at centre back and Huth's at right back... I don't want Tony to go, I want him to stop fucking around and start playing his best team and building on what we had rather than going backwards. im sure it was probably 7 players that started the thrashing adter europe. i think its funny how our form improved after the europa break started probably just a coincidence
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potterkev67
Youth Player
i friggin love oatcakes
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Post by potterkev67 on Feb 8, 2012 19:26:13 GMT
I cannot believe that so called Stoke Supporters, those who if you asked 5-10 years ago ''what would you do for premiership football, transfer window excitement and europa league football'' would have answered....''Well if the football isnt exciting John I think I would like to keep our Handyside and O'conner, they certainly spark the place alight!''. Get off your arse, start a song, back the team, MAKE SOMETHING OF IT! Jesus really wept. I am not saying avoid discussion or criticism, but people make mistakes, players have bad games, and football teams win and loose on occasion. Stoke will never be a top 6 club (at least not under the current financial corruption in football), so 7th is our glass ceiling. We are 5 places off that.....a Europa game coming up, trips to old trafford, emirates etc get behind the team!!!!!!!!!Word for word spot on matey it's really hard work on here at the moment with all the doom & gloom talk about fickle ,no doubt if we put 2 or 3 wins together again we all be talking about Europe .i for one would not give up our place in the best league in the world to watch second rate players try to play the beautiful game ,Iam afraid the biggest problem most supporters have is that they have become board with they have been longing for which is premiership mid table mediocrity (" long may it continue & be careful what you wish for stokies") the championship can soon become league 1 and 2
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 19:37:11 GMT
How many of the players who played in the Europa started the thrashings? If you recall Woodgate's performances at centre back and Huth's at right back... If the defensive tinkering wasn't a problem or a factor, why don't we still have Huth at right back and Woodgate in the middle? I don't want Tony to go, I want him to stop fucking around and start playing his best team and building on what we had rather than going backwards. im sure it was probably 7 players that started the thrashing adter europe. i think its funny how our form improved after the europa break started probably just a coincidence A massive three players who started in Kyiv started at Sunderland. The same number of players started both the Maccabi and Bolton games. Results improved, but we had a lot of luck and still weren't playing very well.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 8, 2012 20:01:48 GMT
We haven't played a Europa game for weeks but that hasn't stopped us being garbage for weeks.
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Post by french toast on Feb 8, 2012 23:42:50 GMT
We haven't played a Europa game for weeks but that hasn't stopped us being garbage for weeks. ive given my opinion on that too
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Post by Godo on Feb 9, 2012 10:05:50 GMT
Objectively this whole debate is nonsense. Pulis has turned us into an established Premiership club, with a cup final, cup runs, European football and a reputation as a serious and well run club. Coates would never risk that and why should he.
But it's hard to watch teams like Norwich, Swansea etc ( let alone Barce! ) with a fraction of our investment and wage bill deliver football that is just as well organised and the team just as hard working but that is actually attractive, technical and exciting to watch and wonder......why can't we do that?
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Post by foxysgloves on Feb 9, 2012 10:11:32 GMT
Objectively this whole debate is nonsense. Pulis has turned us into an established Premiership club, with a cup final, cup runs, European football and a reputation as a serious and well run club. Coates would never risk that and why should he. But it's hard to watch teams like Norwich, Swansea etc ( let alone Barce! ) with a fraction of our investment and wage bill deliver football that is just as well organised and the team just as hard working but that is actually attractive, technical and exciting to watch and wonder......why can't we do that? Lets see if Swansea, Norwich etc (incidentally who are the etcs????) are here doing the same in 5 years time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 10:20:24 GMT
Objectively this whole debate is nonsense. Pulis has turned us into an established Premiership club, with a cup final, cup runs, European football and a reputation as a serious and well run club. Coates would never risk that and why should he. But it's hard to watch teams like Norwich, Swansea etc ( let alone Barce! ) with a fraction of our investment and wage bill deliver football that is just as well organised and the team just as hard working but that is actually attractive, technical and exciting to watch and wonder......why can't we do that? Lets see if Swansea, Norwich etc (incidentally who are the etcs????) are here doing the same in 5 years time. Will they get £80m to spend to do it?
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Post by swanster on Feb 9, 2012 10:38:28 GMT
The thing is, £80m to deliver some good cup runs, European football and Premier League stability is not that much. Plus we will have made money back on transfers in that time so the net outlay is probably much less than that.
The recent games have been decided by small margins - we should have beat Wigan, West Brom (if JW had scored his pen I think we'd have won), and got at least a point v Sunderland (which I think we would've got without the dodgy red card).
I actually think we played quite well in the Wigan and Sunderland games, but luck wasn't on our side - although we have ridden our luck in other games so it's just evening out.
In terms of picking two wingers, which is what we all want to see, I think Pulis would've done that v Sunderland if Ethers was fit. Hopefully he'll do that against Fulham (or certainly against Swansea).
Things will click back into gear when both wingers (and Wilko) are in the side.
As for the journey, we'll continue to progress this season - I'm sure we'll finish higher than last year and break our points record - and that's all we can ask for really.
We are nearly as high as we can go now - we'll probably never go higher than 7th. Hopefully we'll have a few more cup runs, and win one now and again, and have some more European adventures.
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thepom
Youth Player
Posts: 333
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Post by thepom on Feb 9, 2012 11:18:16 GMT
Fuckin 'ell, it's just taken me a hour an half to read this thread, i've just had my 1st joint in probably 2 years and first thing i do is read this thread.
Read a post and agree with 99.9% of all things said, thought about the detail and the consequences of the statement and then going one step further and thinking about the 'whole picture of the marketing of Stoke City to the world' ....
then i read the next post and do it all again .....
But this time i'm at the other end of the scales, getting to a conclusion of how to take Stoke further but this came from 'not having Pulis as manager'
then i read the next post and do it all again .....
but the one conclusion i did have was as quoted
we need a couple of decent full backs who naturally take a position and hold it, when the opposition are attacking and who can join in when we are going forward. Cover for the wings because wingers are prone to injury and loss of form so you need options to keep the blueprint moving. We also require one centre midfielder who has enough energy to get past the forwards occasionally. A fox in the box would be nice but optional if our forwards are getting decent service from the wings.
that was stressfull, going from one extreme emotion to the next and back again .....
So anyone who wants to give up 'smoking' read this, it's an emotional rollercoaster .....
me i'm going for another that was intense .....
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Post by trickydicky73 on Feb 9, 2012 11:54:41 GMT
I would imagine PC's faith in TP has never been higher and the prospects of a change of manager are as close to zero as makes no difference. Agreed.
The moot point is more pertinently: can we ever expect a (real) change in the manager - in terms fo style / approach?
When, if ever, will this "push-on / next stage" stuff (& players) kick in?
It won't. It's bollocks.
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Post by Davef on Feb 9, 2012 12:40:16 GMT
The recent games have been decided by small margins - we should have beat Wigan, West Brom (if JW had scored his pen I think we'd have won), and got at least a point v Sunderland (which I think we would've got without the dodgy red card). If you're going down that road, then there are a few games that have gone in our favour that have been decided by small margins. We robbed West Brom at their place, we're pretty fortunate to get anything out of the Liverpool game, got the luck against Tottenham with the linesman's incorrect offside decision, should undoubtedly have been down to 10 men at Wolves and received the benefit of the doubt at Ewood Park over Samba's early disallowed goal. All of those games ended in victory for us and could quite easily have ended in draws or possibly even defeat. Even if we'd got the points you claim we could've gained against Wigan, West Brom and Sunderland, had those other games not gone in our favour we'd be in a bit of trouble right now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 13:09:54 GMT
The recent games have been decided by small margins - we should have beat Wigan, West Brom (if JW had scored his pen I think we'd have won), and got at least a point v Sunderland (which I think we would've got without the dodgy red card). If you're going down that road, then there are a few games that have gone in our favour that have been decided by small margins. We robbed West Brom at their place, we're pretty fortunate to get anything out of the Liverpool game, got the luck against Tottenham with the linesman's incorrect offside decision, should undoubtedly have been down to 10 men at Wolves and received the benefit of the doubt at Ewood Park over Samba's early disallowed goal. All of those games ended in victory for us and could quite easily have ended in draws or possibly even defeat. Even if we'd got the points you claim we could've gained against Wigan, West Brom and Sunderland, had those other games not gone in our favour we'd be in a bit of trouble right now. The dodgy sending off at Norwich and Woodgate's escape at home to Man Yoo would fall into that bracket as well.
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Post by JoeinOz on Feb 9, 2012 13:15:26 GMT
Woodo might have walked a Wolves.
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Post by swanster on Feb 9, 2012 17:42:24 GMT
Agreed - that's why I said our luck was evening out
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