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Post by peterthornesboots on Dec 21, 2011 0:15:44 GMT
Stop using evidence to rewrite history march!! What was it that Nicholas Boileau said: "A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him." Have you got evidence from wikipedia to prove that Smudge? ??? ;D In all seriousness though it's interesting how the same event can be interpreted so differently by separate individuals.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:16:42 GMT
What was it that Nicholas Boileau said: "A fool always finds a greater fool to admire him." Have you got evidence from wikipedia to prove that Smudge? ??? ;D In all seriousness though it's interesting how the same event can be interpreted so differently by separate individuals. Particularly the evidence that only I have presented.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 0:17:42 GMT
Christ, this is unbelievable. We played B'ham on 10 Jan, we played Bradford on 16 Jan and won, then Chic got sacked. If we weren't in a mess as a club, then why were there so many people so pissed off with everything that was happening. And why is March so intent on sticking up for Chic when he basically tried to introduce a much more "tippy-tappy" style of play. Only getting involved here cos I always fall for March's "Wilson's never played as a midfielder" style of re-writing history.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:18:45 GMT
Christ, this is unbelievable. We played B'ham on 10 Jan, we played Bradford on 16 Jan and won, then Chic got sacked. If we weren't in a mess as a club, then why were there so many people so pissed off with everything that was happening. And why is March so intent on sticking up for Chic when he basically tried to introduce a much more "tippy-tappy" style of play. Only getting involved here cos I always fall for March's "Wilson's never played as a midfielder" style of re-writing history. I have rewritten nothing. I am the only contributor to have actually presented any evidence. ;D
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Post by Smudge_SCFC on Dec 21, 2011 0:22:24 GMT
Christ, this is unbelievable. We played B'ham on 10 Jan, we played Bradford on 16 Jan and won, then Chic got sacked. If we weren't in a mess as a club, then why were there so many people so pissed off with everything that was happening. And why is March so intent on sticking up for Chic when he basically tried to introduce a much more "tippy-tappy" style of play. Only getting involved here cos I always fall for March's "Wilson's never played as a midfielder" style of re-writing history. I have rewritten nothing. I am the only contributor to have actually presented any evidence. ;D You're going with incorrect "evidence" and I'm relying on facts.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:25:48 GMT
I have rewritten nothing. I am the only contributor to have actually presented any evidence. ;D You're going with incorrect "evidence" and I'm relying on facts. You can't say they are facts without any evidence Smudge, even though we all trust you implicitly. The mind does play tricks on us old codgers, you know. The facts are that Kamara definitely became manager two thirds of the way through January, when we were midtable. In the words of Jim Callaghan; "crisis, what crisis"
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Post by onionman on Dec 21, 2011 0:27:56 GMT
Immediately after the 0-7 match, we beat Bradford 2-1.
Then Bates was sacked.
While I agree Bates was a poor manager, I don't think he'd have overseen the sustained run of abysmal form Kamara managed, so there's a good chance we'd have got the extra four or five points we needed to survive. Just a couple more home wins would have done it I think?
Regardlesss, we were an awful club to support at that time. A mess from top to bottom with the biggest set of tossers in the red and white stripes I'd ever seen (at least until Brian Little somehow found 11 even bigger tossers over the the next 12 months).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 0:28:18 GMT
Christ, this is unbelievable. We played B'ham on 10 Jan, we played Bradford on 16 Jan and won, then Chic got sacked. If we weren't in a mess as a club, then why were there so many people so pissed off with everything that was happening. And why is March so intent on sticking up for Chic when he basically tried to introduce a much more "tippy-tappy" style of play. Only getting involved here cos I always fall for March's "Wilson's never played as a midfielder" style of re-writing history. I have rewritten nothing. I am the only contributor to have actually presented any evidence. ;D If you're using Wiki as evidence, then check out the fixtures for the 97-98 season. Wiki provides the dates, your memory will do the rest.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 21, 2011 0:29:08 GMT
When Bates was appointed something in me died. The most dullest cheap option ever. He just wasn't good enough. Calamity.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:30:21 GMT
When Bates was appointed something in me died. The most dullest cheap option ever. He just wasn't good enough. Calamity. But he had won all 3 games as caretaker before we appointed Joe Jordan. I'm getting this strange sense of deja vu
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Post by bettyswallox on Dec 21, 2011 0:31:50 GMT
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 21, 2011 0:32:15 GMT
He did. But that was a stop gap situation. Being a good manager is something to be judged opver a period of time when the varying curcumstances arise and have to be addressed. His first few months as manager weren't bad but in the end he was hopelessly inadequate.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 0:32:27 GMT
I have rewritten nothing. I am the only contributor to have actually presented any evidence. ;D If you're using Wiki as evidence, then check out the fixtures for the 97-98 season. Wiki provides the dates, your memory will do the rest. I probably wouldn't have minded Chic if it hadn't have been for all the "Keegan's just landed in his helicopter" stories that kind of made the eventual appointment a bit underwhelming.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 21, 2011 0:32:41 GMT
You're going with incorrect "evidence" and I'm relying on facts. You can't say they are facts without any evidence Smudge, even though we all trust you implicitly. The mind does play tricks on us old codgers, you know. The facts are that Kamara definitely became manager two thirds of the way through January, when we were midtable. In the words of Jim Callaghan; "crisis, what crisis" To be fair to Smudge, March ... You said we were 6th in the table and he was sacked in November. Smudge said we were in the bottom half of the table and he was sacked at the end of January. The FACTS are ... that he was sacked in the third week of January and we were in the bottom half of the table.
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 21, 2011 0:35:00 GMT
A mate came visit me at the start of February and the first thing he said at the airport was that we were going down. He was right of course.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:36:49 GMT
You can't say they are facts without any evidence Smudge, even though we all trust you implicitly. The mind does play tricks on us old codgers, you know. The facts are that Kamara definitely became manager two thirds of the way through January, when we were midtable. In the words of Jim Callaghan; "crisis, what crisis" To be fair to Smudge, March ... You said we were 6th in the table and he was sacked in November. Smudge said we were in the bottom half of the table and he was sacked at the end of January. The FACTS are ... that he was sacked in the third week of January and we were in the bottom half of the table. The Kamara appointment date and the date of the Brum game suggest the Wiki page on Bates is wrong. Bottom half of the table - only just, Paul!!!!! I think mid-table is a better description. And Bates won a third of his games in charge. That is not a crisis. The thread started with Blackburn's current position and became a comparison with our position under Chic Bates. The comparison is that there is no comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 0:37:41 GMT
When Bates was appointed something in me died. The most dullest cheap option ever. He just wasn't good enough. Calamity. But he had won all 3 games as caretaker before we appointed Joe Jordan. I'm getting this strange sense of deja vu Asa feck'n bleedin' Hartford!
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:38:52 GMT
But he had won all 3 games as caretaker before we appointed Joe Jordan. I'm getting this strange sense of deja vu Asa feck'n bleedin' Hartford! Now he was crap ;D Or is someone going to produce evidence that he was the real deal
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 21, 2011 0:39:06 GMT
Hartford won 3 games between jordan leaving and Lou returning.
There is a comparison between kean and Bates. They are both shit.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:41:31 GMT
Hartford won 3 games between jordan leaving and Lou returning. There is a comparison between kean and Bates. They are both shit. Bates won 42 points in his 33 games in charge!!!!! (11 wins and 9 draws) What is crap about that?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 21, 2011 0:43:02 GMT
To be fair to Smudge, March ... You said we were 6th in the table and he was sacked in November. Smudge said we were in the bottom half of the table and he was sacked at the end of January. The FACTS are ... that he was sacked in the third week of January and we were in the bottom half of the table. The Kamara appointment date and the date of the Brum game suggest the Wiki page on Bates is wrong. Bottom half of the table - only just, Paul!!!!! I think mid-table is a better description. And Bates won a third of his games in charge. That is not a crisis. The thread started with Blackburn's current position and became a comparison with our position under Chic Bates. The comparison is that there is no comparison. Yeah but Smudge entered the thread to pick you up on supplying inaccurate facts. Would you not agree that he was correct to do so?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2011 0:43:22 GMT
Asa feck'n bleedin' Hartford! Now he was crap ;D Or is someone going to produce evidence that he was the real deal If stats can be used to prove that Dave Kevan couldn't manage, I'm sure 3 wins out of 3 can be used to prove that our Asa was indeed the real deal.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:44:59 GMT
The Kamara appointment date and the date of the Brum game suggest the Wiki page on Bates is wrong. Bottom half of the table - only just, Paul!!!!! I think mid-table is a better description. And Bates won a third of his games in charge. That is not a crisis. The thread started with Blackburn's current position and became a comparison with our position under Chic Bates. The comparison is that there is no comparison. Yeah but Smudge entered the thread to pick you up on supplying inaccurate facts. Would you not agree that he was correct to do so? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chic_BatesThis page is the issue. Look at the dates! At least I attempted to produce some evidence and we were 6th in October as I stated.
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Post by skip on Dec 21, 2011 0:46:49 GMT
March4 - I rather like your route one attitude towards Pulis and tactics and the like but your argument on this thread doesn't wash. I'm damned to be eternally optimistic but the 97/98 season Stoke City were going down the toilet at such a rate of knots that even people like me could see it and I choose not to see some things when it suits my sleep patterns better to do so.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 21, 2011 0:46:58 GMT
Yeah but Smudge entered the thread to pick you up on supplying inaccurate facts. Would you not agree that he was correct to do so? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chic_BatesThis page is the issue. Look at the dates! At least I attempted to produce some evidence and we were 6th in October as I stated. So Smudge was right after all then?
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:47:54 GMT
So Smudge was right after all then? Smudge said Kamara was appointed in February and that the club were in crisis!!!!!!!!!! Both very wrong.
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Post by skip on Dec 21, 2011 0:50:09 GMT
The club absolutely was in crisis. Christ knows how many fans didn't kick off for no reason at all you know. The fans saw it before the board would or could admit it. Arguably the players sensed it too. Like cows lying down in a field before the rain.
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Post by march4 on Dec 21, 2011 0:51:22 GMT
The club absolutely was in crisis. Christ knows how many fans didn't kick off for no reason at all you know. The fans saw it before the board would or could admit it. Arguably the players sensed it too. Like cows lying down in a field before the rain. Blimey, if mid-table is a crisis how would you describe Blackburn's position (- which is the initial point of this discussion).
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 21, 2011 0:52:24 GMT
So Smudge was right after all then? Smudge said Kamara was appointed in February and that the club were in crisis!!!!!!!!!! Both very wrong. The link you provided was to do with Bates' sacking. What's so wrong with accepting that your information was wrong (both in terms of date and league position) and Smudge called it correctly? This thread is growing pointlessly as a consequence ...
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Post by JoeinOz on Dec 21, 2011 0:52:24 GMT
RIGHT, when Lou was coming to the end he said our players had to be hard working players or we'd struggle badly. Lou said constantly that we had plat at 100mph or we'd be in deep shit. He took a hard line with them because he had to because Lou knew that if they were given an inch they would take a mile. I thought, and loads of other Stokies though, he was saying that because he knew no other way. Our winter collapse with Bates proves Lou was 100% right. We'd started well but he had no idea how to handle the bad run.
One of the squad lives here now and I talked with him and he says basically, all the players took the piss. I can't say on a public forum what they did but in short, they weren't in the right mindset to win games of football. They got away with it because Chic Bates was a weak manager.
It proves yet again..managing is very different to being assistant.
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