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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 22:30:30 GMT
mumf, anyone would think we weren't on the same side! ;D Have you booked your hol yet?? No.....I'm thinking of going on my own. Edit: I would prefer to go on my own. Got the ideal car for your holiday but will end up breaking down in Stafford..... Think I have got the colour right!
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Post by salopstick on Oct 8, 2010 22:35:05 GMT
No.....I'm thinking of going on my own. Edit: I would prefer to go on my own. Got the ideal car for your holiday but will end up breaking down in Stafford..... Think I have got the colour right! brilliant i want a pair of labour tinted glasses
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 22:35:46 GMT
Einstein...I would rather sit in that (broken down in a Stafford layby) than next to you in your 2 up 2 down in lovely lunatic Leek....even if it took the AA SEVERAL FUCKING MONTHS to arrive.
mumf.
(Peoples Democratic of Fegg Hayes & Capital of the Cultural Quarter.)
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Post by salopstick on Oct 8, 2010 22:37:13 GMT
Einstein...I would rather sit in that (broken down in a Stafford layby) than next to you in your 2 up 2 down in lovely lunatic Leek....even if it took the AA SEVERAL FUCKING MONTHS to arrive. mumf. (Peoples Democratic of Fegg Hayes & Capital of the Cultural Quarter.) and therin lies the labour argument
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 22:39:49 GMT
Einstein...I would rather sit in that (broken down in a Stafford layby) than next to you in your 2 up 2 down in lovely lunatic Leek....even if it took the AA SEVERAL FUCKING MONTHS to arrive. mumf. (Peoples Democratic of Fegg Hayes & Capital of the Cultural Quarter.) and therin lies the labour argument Where does your argument lie...Aldershot Barracks..? ;D
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2010 22:55:28 GMT
Einstein...I would rather sit in that (broken down in a Stafford layby) than next to you in your 2 up 2 down in lovely lunatic Leek....even if it took the AA SEVERAL FUCKING MONTHS to arrive. mumf. (Peoples Democratic of Fegg Hayes & Capital of the Cultural Quarter.) What??? You rather break down in a Birmingham over spill town then your Leek supporting Stokie. Tut tut.
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Post by JoeinOz on Oct 9, 2010 0:12:33 GMT
And what happens to people in these places who can't be bothered to get out and find work, food or water for themselves or their kids? Does somebody come along everyday and bring them what they need?
No. They go and get it by fair means...or foul. Often foul. Nothing has value. You get shot dead for a pair of sunglasses. There is little legitimate work to find anyway for the 99% of the population who aren't part of the ruling hierarchy. All that is a result of the extreme everyone for themselves ethos.
When it comes to benefits there will always be people who abuse the system. That doesn't take into account the vast majority of people who are legitimate claimants who are in genuine need of support. They could be allowed to starve I suppose and that would be a step to the wonderful charming mood of the plaaces I referrered to earlier. In fact let them starve and get people to come and watch them starve...that'll show em what happens when they don't let their boss get a blow job from their daughter, or refuse to go across a border to get a cache of white powder. That'll teach the lazy fuckers.
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Post by murphyd on Oct 9, 2010 1:48:31 GMT
Let the poor drink the milk, while the rich eat the honey, Let the bums count their blessings, while they count the money How true was Matt Johnson when he wrote this song!
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 9, 2010 8:14:43 GMT
I am considering chucking the job in after xmas as I will get more not working. It's the system. If it works for anyone who just gets off a boat then it will work for me. I have payed into the system for over 20 years. Time to get some back before the immigrants have it all! signed on last week mate - doesnt feel great i tell ya and im bloody bored during the day but then i am only getting jsa and housing and council benefit - if it means you get a good whack go for it i reckon - gotta do the best for your family - tho be aware that there are hidden costs to you with unemployement also thought you couldnt sign on if you made yourself voluntary unemployed??
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Oct 9, 2010 8:19:24 GMT
I am considering chucking the job in after xmas as I will get more not working. It's the system. If it works for anyone who just gets off a boat then it will work for me. I have payed into the system for over 20 years. Time to get some back before the immigrants have it all! signed on last week mate - doesnt feel great i tell ya and im bloody bored during the day but then i am only getting jsa and housing and council benefit - if it means you get a good whack go for it i reckon - gotta do the best for your family - tho be aware that there are hidden costs to you with unemployement also thought you couldnt sign on if you made yourself voluntary unemployed?? If you tell them that you family is in danger of falling apart because of shit hours etc you get ya benefits. They may suspend jsa for a couple of weeks but they have to pay the rent etc because there are kids involved.
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 9, 2010 8:20:26 GMT
Nobody is attacking the 'working' class as the people who are the problem do not work. With respect, bullshit. This is the media manipulating people somewhere in the middle of the pile to attack and demonise the weakest 5% of society and blame them for problems they're too feeble to cause. When there's been positive social change in the past to level up opportunities and life chances, it's come from people believing they had a common interest. The red top right wing press has ALWAYS, ALWAYS existed to divide ordinary working people and make them attack and mistrust each other. with regrads to the last point do you have proof? and the conceptualisation of the "the lowest 5%" as being weak and inoffensive is clearly untrue - just watch jeremy kyle seriously though we all find power in everything we do - it aint a simple dichotomy
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 9, 2010 8:25:34 GMT
Yorkshire, what I was having a go at was the way you said an entire generation, that's just not true. People from the current generation of 20 year olds, and 35 year olds, still get into Oxbridge, do exciting, creative and useful things with their lives, it's NOT a crap generation. You're talking about the weakest and most useless members of that generation, who either don\t have skills anyone wants or can't be arsed to acquire them. People like that are always going to be with us frankly but you can't write off a whole generation because it happens to contain people with nothing better to do than fiddle the benefits system. Those people are not why we have a recession, I agree many have got away with stuff they shouldn't, but penalising them is going to do less than fuck all to solve the causes of the recession and the reason S-o-T has become an even poorer relation than it always was. errr its fairly well accepted that the main reason we have a recession is the huge amount of bad debt around yet its really simple - if you cant afford to borrow dont do it!
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 9, 2010 8:29:55 GMT
And what happens to people in these places who can't be bothered to get out and find work, food or water for themselves or their kids? Does somebody come along everyday and bring them what they need? No. They go and get it by fair means...or foul. Often foul. Nothing has value. You get shot dead for a pair of sunglasses. There is little legitimate work to find anyway for the 99% of the population who aren't part of the ruling hierarchy. All that is a result of the extreme everyone for themselves ethos. When it comes to benefits there will always be people who abuse the system. That doesn't take into account the vast majority of people who are legitimate claimants who are in genuine need of support. They could be allowed to starve I suppose and that would be a step to the wonderful charming mood of the plaaces I referrered to earlier. In fact let them starve and get people to come and watch them starve...that'll show em what happens when they don't let their boss get a blow job from their daughter, or refuse to go across a border to get a cache of white powder. That'll teach the lazy fuckers. Ahhh so you want to keep people in a frankly soul detroying benefits trap just so your ivory towers can be protected?? whatever happened to freedom of opportunity??
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Oct 9, 2010 8:53:17 GMT
Ahhh so you want to keep people in a frankly soul detroying benefits trap just so your ivory towers can be protected?? whatever happened to freedom of opportunity?? This is the point being missed. If you take away the comfort blanket of long term 'opt in' benefits, you effectivley force people to get up and make the effort to improve themselves. If nobody is going to gift it to you, you have to go and find it. The situation as it is now, we will have no option but to continue supporting those who are already funding their choises through handouts, but if it is made clear that this will end at a set point, NOBODY can claim it is unfair. If you know you are not going to get funding for your children yet still choose to have them in a situation where you cant support them it is youre own stupid fault! Of course we have to keep support for people who lose their jobs but these are a totally different case to the ones we are talking about. Of course we have to improve the provision of training to help people get into work or change career if they need to, but i really am shocked at the amount of people who seem to think we have an obligation to protect this lifesyle of freeloading.
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Post by stokiegav on Oct 9, 2010 10:08:59 GMT
Ahhh so you want to keep people in a frankly soul detroying benefits trap just so your ivory towers can be protected?? whatever happened to freedom of opportunity?? This is the point being missed. If you take away the comfort blanket of long term 'opt in' benefits, you effectivley force people to get up and make the effort to improve themselves. If nobody is going to gift it to you, you have to go and find it. The situation as it is now, we will have no option but to continue supporting those who are already funding their choises through handouts, but if it is made clear that this will end at a set point, NOBODY can claim it is unfair. If you know you are not going to get funding for your children yet still choose to have them in a situation where you cant support them it is youre own stupid fault! Of course we have to keep support for people who lose their jobs but these are a totally different case to the ones we are talking about. Of course we have to improve the provision of training to help people get into work or change career if they need to, but i really am shocked at the amount of people who seem to think we have an obligation to protect this lifesyle of freeloading. i actually think that is the only real option - the welfare state was an experiment that has spiralled massively out of control theres a clip somewhere of even tony benn saying that the nhs was only designed to give a BASIC level of care - gp appointments maternity help etc plastic surgery and sex changes etc just werent envisaged - the problem is under the current system i fully support that people get these treatments on the nhs similarly social work originally thougt all it had to do was tell poor people how to live and itd all be alright one of the main reasons for the welfare state was to ward the threat of communism and stop the working class from rising up - in other words a massive tool of oppression for working class folks (and if you live in stoke then sadly that applies to around 90% of us!) ive come to the conclusion that a full shake up of the whole system is the only way forward sadly what this will undoubtedly mean is that some people (tho not as many as some would have you to believe - people from deprived neighbourhoods are not all one helpless mess!!!) get cut adrift and will drown - and its that which gets in the way of a very difficult decision - though clearly people are suffering under the present sytem massively- working class mens suicides are at record levels as is depression generally above all else - we've tried Blairs 3rd way and its failed disastrously!
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Post by keithy george on Oct 9, 2010 10:14:34 GMT
What a load of bolocks are you gordon brown? Please explain to me why it is 'bollocks' to expect people to support children they CHOOSE to have, to take responcibility for their own actions and not to get a free ride from the rest of us while putting nothing back. Maybe i am wrong for thinking if you are grown up enough to put you dick in someone, you should be grown up enough to accept the result? Its bollocks because im a tax payer iv got three children iv worked all my life its nice for a bit of help, if we put our children in a nursery her job wouldn't cover the cost
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Post by mermaidsal on Oct 9, 2010 13:22:39 GMT
Yorkshire, what I was having a go at was the way you said an entire generation, that's just not true. People from the current generation of 20 year olds, and 35 year olds, still get into Oxbridge, do exciting, creative and useful things with their lives, it's NOT a crap generation. You're talking about the weakest and most useless members of that generation, who either don\t have skills anyone wants or can't be arsed to acquire them. People like that are always going to be with us frankly but you can't write off a whole generation because it happens to contain people with nothing better to do than fiddle the benefits system. Those people are not why we have a recession, I agree many have got away with stuff they shouldn't, but penalising them is going to do less than fuck all to solve the causes of the recession and the reason S-o-T has become an even poorer relation than it always was. errr its fairly well accepted that the main reason we have a recession is the huge amount of bad debt around yet its really simple - if you cant afford to borrow dont do it! We agree.... but if you think of the multiple pressures on people to get into debt just to 'keep up' and have a decent place to live, why exactly are you blaming the victims of the crime not the perpetrators?? ??
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2010 13:29:27 GMT
This whole issue has been reignited by the Condems as a smokescreen to hide the approach of the most vicious cuts in living memory, anyone who doesn't understand this is either misguided or deluded.
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Post by salopstick on Oct 9, 2010 13:34:13 GMT
This whole issue has been reignited by the Condems as a smokescreen to hide the approach of the most vicious cuts in living memory, anyone who doesn't understand this is either misguided or deluded. huddy that is immaterial to this argument no-one should be better off on benefits than working. thats just immoral if the govt bring in a 26k limit on annual benefits which is a lot of money and more than alot of people we all know earn then the incentive is to work that north wales family with 8 kids a 45k benefits package and she wants 6 more kids is disgusting huddy its these people which should be targeted surely you agree with that
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Post by Beardy200 on Oct 9, 2010 13:35:15 GMT
errr its fairly well accepted that the main reason we have a recession is the huge amount of bad debt around yet its really simple - if you cant afford to borrow dont do it! We agree.... but if you think of the multiple pressures on people to get into debt just to 'keep up' and have a decent place to live, why exactly are you blaming the victims of the crime not the perpetrators?? ?? There's no need to "keep up" as you put it Sal. That's just a lame excuse made by the weak who aren't strong enough to say "I can't afford this so I'm not going to buy it". Some people have 13 kids and live solely on benefits. Who exactly are they trying to keep up with? The Waltons?
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Post by mermaidsal on Oct 9, 2010 13:35:57 GMT
This whole issue has been reignited by the Condems as a smokescreen to hide the approach of the most vicious cuts in living memory, anyone who doesn't understand this is either misguided or deluded. Sadly you're just going to have to ask most people to wait 12 months to believe that, too many have been brainwashed into the English vice of blaming the people next below them in the pecking order for the world's ills. You'd laugh if it wasn't so sad
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Post by mermaidsal on Oct 9, 2010 13:39:05 GMT
We agree.... but if you think of the multiple pressures on people to get into debt just to 'keep up' and have a decent place to live, why exactly are you blaming the victims of the crime not the perpetrators?? ?? There's no need to "keep up" as you put it Sal. That's just a lame excuse made by the weak who aren't strong enough to say "I can't afford this so I'm not going to buy it". Some people have 13 kids and live solely on benefits. Who exactly are they trying to keep up with? The Waltons? It's true, it is a lame excuse made by the weak. The lame and weak were just who got hit by the scam lending. Question is do we have any responsibility towards those people, could they be us if we hit rocky times or just weren't bright enough to see it coming?? Even now 43% of mortgages yes 43% go to people who have to self-certify and pay scary interest just to get a loan. How many of these 13 children on benefits are there again??
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Post by Beardy200 on Oct 9, 2010 13:48:00 GMT
There's no need to "keep up" as you put it Sal. That's just a lame excuse made by the weak who aren't strong enough to say "I can't afford this so I'm not going to buy it". Some people have 13 kids and live solely on benefits. Who exactly are they trying to keep up with? The Waltons? It's true, it is a lame excuse made by the weak. The lame and weak were just who got hit by the scam lending. Question is do we have any responsibility towards those people, could they be us if we hit rocky times or just weren't bright enough to see it coming?? Even now 43% of mortgages yes 43% go to people who have to self-certify and pay scary interest just to get a loan. How many of these 13 children on benefits are there again?? I just don't live in this blame culture world that so many do Sal. You say that it's easy to blame the people just below you but i prefer to blame myself for any of my problems and i expect others to do the same. I go into everything with my eyes wide open and if it goes wrong it's my problem. I don't rack up thousands of pounds of debt on my credit cards and then blame being too stupid or having to keep up with the neighbours. I don't blame somebody else for tempting me too much or putting me under pressure to spend money i don't have with fancy mind bending TV commercials etc.
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Post by mermaidsal on Oct 9, 2010 13:51:51 GMT
Beardy I know you do and so do I.
I just can't get past the borrowers, however daft or unlucky, with chunks ripped out of their lives by moneylenders, and the uber moneylenders in the City doing nothing but profit by it.
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Post by Beardy200 on Oct 9, 2010 14:03:39 GMT
Beardy I know you do and so do I. I just can't get past the borrowers, however daft or unlucky, with chunks ripped out of their lives by moneylenders, and the uber moneylenders in the City doing nothing but profit by it. But in truth Sal we all know what will happen. Most will have spent recklessly for 5 or 6 years, got themselves in a mess, declare themselves bankrupt and not have to pay any of it back while the rest of us pick up the bill. It's much too easy to get away with saying i was naive these days with very little come back. I don't believe in no welfare but as has been said above, i think cash for kids should stop at two. The world is over populated as it is and while the excuse of "I can't afford to work because i'd lose my benefits" is so popular we need to discourage these professional breeders now before the next generation think it's the norm to sit around all day doing bugger all. It's massively on the increase and it needs nipping in the bud fast.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2010 14:20:55 GMT
This whole issue has been reignited by the Condems as a smokescreen to hide the approach of the most vicious cuts in living memory, anyone who doesn't understand this is either misguided or deluded. huddy that is immaterial to this argument no-one should be better off on benefits than working. thats just immoral if the govt bring in a 26k limit on annual benefits which is a lot of money and more than alot of people we all know earn then the incentive is to work that north wales family with 8 kids a 45k benefits package and she wants 6 more kids is disgusting huddy its these people which should be targeted surely you agree with that I agree that no one should be better off on benefits than those working, what's that got to do with my post?
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Post by salopstick on Oct 9, 2010 15:21:51 GMT
the thread is about an mp talking sense over benefits payments, as always you need to put a anti govt agenda on it cuts are needed and if the first cuts are those stealing a living from my taxes then fuck em note stealing a living the likes of these scumbags who should should be working www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=502766&in_page_id=2Why work when I can get £42,000 in benefits a year AND drive a Merc? these woman has never done a days work in has 8 kids and wants 6 more and you say its just a smokescreen by the tories benefits should be there for a helping hand when needed, i see that and agree with it but somthing has to be done
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2010 16:18:11 GMT
the thread is about an mp talking sense over benefits payments, as always you need to put a anti govt agenda on it cuts are needed and if the first cuts are those stealing a living from my taxes then fuck em note stealing a living the likes of these scumbags who should should be working www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=502766&in_page_id=2Why work when I can get £42,000 in benefits a year AND drive a Merc? these woman has never done a days work in has 8 kids and wants 6 more and you say its just a smokescreen by the tories benefits should be there for a helping hand when needed, i see that and agree with it but somthing has to be done I assume you feel the same way about the top 5% of super rich high earners that successfully avoided around 120 billion quids worth of taxes too? Collecting their moies would wipe out the debt, funny how I don't see or hear about the Tories doing that though eh? It is a smokescreen salop, individuals like her are relatively low in numbers, made scary by the likes of the Sun and the Daily mail.
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Post by Beardy200 on Oct 9, 2010 16:40:23 GMT
the thread is about an mp talking sense over benefits payments, as always you need to put a anti govt agenda on it cuts are needed and if the first cuts are those stealing a living from my taxes then fuck em note stealing a living the likes of these scumbags who should should be working www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=502766&in_page_id=2Why work when I can get £42,000 in benefits a year AND drive a Merc? these woman has never done a days work in has 8 kids and wants 6 more and you say its just a smokescreen by the tories benefits should be there for a helping hand when needed, i see that and agree with it but somthing has to be done I assume you feel the same way about the top 5% of super rich high earners that successfully avoided around 120 billion quids worth of taxes too? Collecting their moies would wipe out the debt, funny how I don't see or hear about the Tories doing that though eh? It is a smokescreen salop, individuals like her are relatively low in numbers, made scary by the likes of the Sun and the Daily mail. Not the old "yeah but it's not as bad as ......." argument? It is possible to disagree with lots of things, you don't have to just concentrate on one at a time. This thread is about people scrounging benefits all of their life without contributing with the rest of us. Try another thread if you want to discuss tax avoidance but the fact is that even if they did collect those taxes it wouldn't make spongers any more tolerable.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Oct 9, 2010 16:55:33 GMT
I assume you feel the same way about the top 5% of super rich high earners that successfully avoided around 120 billion quids worth of taxes too? Collecting their moies would wipe out the debt, funny how I don't see or hear about the Tories doing that though eh? It is a smokescreen salop, individuals like her are relatively low in numbers, made scary by the likes of the Sun and the Daily mail. Not the old "yeah but it's not as bad as ......." argument? It is possible to disagree with lots of things, you don't have to just concentrate on one at a time. This thread is about people scrounging benefits all of their life without contributing with the rest of us. Try another thread if you want to discuss tax avoidance but the fact is that even if they did collect those taxes it wouldn't make spongers any more tolerable. It might be a different area of "scrounging" but it is scrounging all the same, is it not? While I agree there are a small minority of "scroungers" on benefits, the figure and the revenue is miniscule comapred to the super rich, hence why I mentioned it here. This witch hunting of the poor is no more than a smokescreen as I previously mentioned.
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