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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 30, 2010 0:35:04 GMT
Rhodesy, I haven't suddenly turned into a monster but I was pissed off at the way this Catholic theory of the world seemed to devalue any other approach.
I've been a nurse, I'm a mother which is the most important thing in my life, I've also had two miscarriages with pregnancies that were very much wanted. I've seen situations not unlike the one Jones described. I've been lucky enough never to have to make the decision about an abortion myself.
The big thing we disagree on is when a baby becomes a person. A bean-sized cluster of cells that could easily spontaneously abort in any case just isn't a human being yet, with or without a soul. The sperm and egg happen to have done their business and the womb is doing its stuff too but TILL THE BABY IS VIABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB it's not yet a baby, in simple biological terms. That's why I was talking about hormones not guilt for a very early abortion and I truly believe that's right.
As I said already, the limit is too high at the moment, and gets into the grey area where a very lucky baby just might be viable outside the body, though with many medical problems, probably for life. Beyond that point I agree that unless lives are in danger, adoption is a better option in many cases.
To lose a baby once you're at 20 weeks plus ISN'T just about hormones, at that point you rightly feel you've lost another human being. The loss stays with you, it has to, I know that from the later of my miscarriages. (Which is nothing beside when a woman has to carry a baby to term that's already dead inside her, that's worst of all.)
Hope that makes why I said what I said a bit clearer.
I massively respect Shell's decision and would like to hope I'd have had the guts to the do same at the same age, I'm not sure I could have been so strong though.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 30, 2010 0:44:02 GMT
The big thing we disagree on is when a baby becomes a person. A bean-sized cluster of cells that could easily spontaneously abort in any case just isn't a human being yet, with or without a soul. The sperm and egg happen to have done their business and the womb is doing its stuff too but TILL THE BABY IS VIABLE OUTSIDE THE WOMB it's not yet a baby, in simple biological terms. That's why I was talking about hormones not guilt for a very early abortion and I truly believe that's right. Yes but how can you pinpoint that? Unless you can clock it to the milisecond in 100% of cases there's always going to be speculation as to whether that child will make it or not. It's not our decision to make, it's up to God, or fate, or nature, or whatever. It's wrong to simply guess that it will live or die if left outside the womb, and it's obscenely unfair on that child, potential or real, to decide whether it should be allowed a shot at life or not based upon minutes or hours or days or weeks as to whether it could fight it out. There is absolutely no way that you can pick the exact moment that something becomes a human, and for that reason, I honestly believe that it is absolutely wrong to abort it.
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 30, 2010 0:45:22 GMT
But that's kind of what I'm saying Boother, I'd like the limit to be set below where that cut-off point even becomes a question.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 30, 2010 0:48:42 GMT
But I fail to see what the difference is between terminating a baby that is unable to survive on its own and forced euthanasia on people who are dependent on others? I don't believe for one second you would advocate the latter, wo why would you be for the former?
You wouldn't call a brain-damaged quadroplegic non-human, so why would you call a foetus non-human?
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 30, 2010 9:37:48 GMT
What boother said. To me a cluster of cells has a right to life and has the potential of becoming a human being, what right do we have to murder a child or a cluster of cells that may already be human, it's impossible to define when a foetus becomes human so in my opinion, as soon as it is concepted, it's human. I disagree with the morning after pill also.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 30, 2010 10:18:12 GMT
What boother said. To me a cluster of cells has a right to life and has the potential of becoming a human being, what right do we have to murder a child or a cluster of cells that may already be human, it's impossible to define when a foetus becomes human so in my opinion, as soon as it is concepted, it's human. I disagree with the morning after pill also. Do you also disagree with the coil and other IUD contraception, as they work in exactleythe same way as the morning after pill, by preventing a fertilised egg from implanting in the womb? And Boother, re your pm, i hold no grudge whatsoever, same to Rhodesy and Father Ted. Everybody is entitled to an opinion and agree or not, i dont hold it personally against anyone no matter how heated it gets. Religion and abortion are topics that will always divide people and bring out strong emotion on both sides, but it also makes for a cracking argument, so bring it on bitches ;D
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Post by ravenonthewing on Jun 30, 2010 10:26:15 GMT
I agree with China's one child policy.
I also strongly believe there is a God.
I've recently come to the conclusion, Catholicism is man made bollocks to control the masses. Any real God would not agree with what those twats have done throughout history
Not sure about other faiths yet but, I'm working on them.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 30, 2010 11:46:40 GMT
the womens body the womens choice its simple with a legal limit on time
if my daughter come home battered and raped and found her self pregnant and wanted to get rid i would support her
if my daughter felt she couldnt give birth to a baby for what ever reason and wanted rid i would support her
if my daughter was pregnant at fifteen and wanted to keep it, i would support her
totally her choice and i would support her not condemn her
if people dont believe in abortion i can accept that. i believe a church shouldnt be against or for but offer support regardless of what a women wants to do
the catholic church is against abortion and contraception so anybody that does either is immediatly made a sinner - i dont believe that is what religion is about. i was led to believe that religion, especially christianity (of what catholicism is a part of is all about tolerance, caring, sharing, support and not judging because judging is what god will do
so in this respect i feel the catholic church is a tadge hypocritical
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 30, 2010 12:58:09 GMT
the womens body the womens choice its simple with a legal limit on time if my daughter come home battered and raped and found her self pregnant and wanted to get rid i would support her if my daughter felt she couldnt give birth to a baby for what ever reason and wanted rid i would support her if my daughter was pregnant at fifteen and wanted to keep it, i would support her totally her choice and i would support her not condemn her if people dont believe in abortion i can accept that. i believe a church shouldnt be against or for but offer support regardless of what a women wants to do Exactly, and that's where the argument should begin and end for me. Women have really had to fight to get this vital bit of control back over our own lives and bodies, other people just should not have these rights over us. On the whole we're responsible and compassionate and make many more right judgements than wrong about fertility and children. Ladies, that's not unreasonable is it? I'm not remotely anti-bloke or anti the right to religion, but these are my reproductive bits and they're nothing to do with some group of male priests.
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 30, 2010 13:07:35 GMT
the womens body the womens choice its simple with a legal limit on time if my daughter come home battered and raped and found her self pregnant and wanted to get rid i would support her if my daughter felt she couldnt give birth to a baby for what ever reason and wanted rid i would support her if my daughter was pregnant at fifteen and wanted to keep it, i would support her totally her choice and i would support her not condemn her if people dont believe in abortion i can accept that. i believe a church shouldnt be against or for but offer support regardless of what a women wants to do Exactly, and that's where the argument should begin and end for me. Women have really had to fight to get this vital bit of control back over our own lives and bodies, other people just should not have these rights over us. On the whole we're responsible and compassionate and make many more right judgements than wrong about fertility and children. Ladies, that's not unreasonable is it? I'm not remotely anti-bloke or anti the right to religion, but these are my reproductive bits and they're nothing to do with some group of male priests. You still don't understand what Boother or myself are saying. Regardless of what the Church says or a 'group of male priests' as you put it think, I can't see how anyone can morally accept abortion. Regardless of the fact that they're you're 'reproductive bits' there's a life in there that isn't yours and is not yours to end.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 30, 2010 13:25:34 GMT
Exactly, and that's where the argument should begin and end for me. Women have really had to fight to get this vital bit of control back over our own lives and bodies, other people just should not have these rights over us. On the whole we're responsible and compassionate and make many more right judgements than wrong about fertility and children. Ladies, that's not unreasonable is it? I'm not remotely anti-bloke or anti the right to religion, but these are my reproductive bits and they're nothing to do with some group of male priests. You still don't understand what Boother or myself are saying. Regardless of what the Church says or a 'group of male priests' as you put it think, I can't see how anyone can morally accept abortion. Regardless of the fact that they're you're 'reproductive bits' there's a life in there that isn't yours and is not yours to end. I'm sorry but if the arguement is that only god can end lives, surely it's up to him to save lives too in which case you'll be dead against the NHS ???
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Post by edinburghstokie on Jun 30, 2010 13:26:43 GMT
It's a few cells without any consciousness.
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 30, 2010 13:33:52 GMT
Fr Ted, Boother, Rhodesy yes I am getting it but I'm totally 200% disagreeing with you on the one basic point: in my strongly held opinion (and with respect, I've grown babies inside me, you haven't), a baby is NOT a human being till it's viable outside the womb. Nor is a sperm, an egg or the product of a coil that produces spontaneous early abortion.
As for potential lives, even in my late 30s I'm rolling around with several thousand eggs inside me - am I committing a sin against God every time I have a period instead of having sex, getting lucky and turning every possible egg I can into a new person (in a dangerously overpopulated world)??
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 30, 2010 13:34:36 GMT
You still don't understand what Boother or myself are saying. Regardless of what the Church says or a 'group of male priests' as you put it think, I can't see how anyone can morally accept abortion. Regardless of the fact that they're you're 'reproductive bits' there's a life in there that isn't yours and is not yours to end. I'm sorry but if the arguement is that only god can end lives, surely it's up to him to save lives too in which case you'll be dead against the NHS ??? Saving lives is a good thing. Ending lives is not.
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Post by followyoudown on Jun 30, 2010 13:44:17 GMT
I'm sorry but if the arguement is that only god can end lives, surely it's up to him to save lives too in which case you'll be dead against the NHS ??? Saving lives is a good thing. Ending lives is not. So these babies that are 'saved' in African countries where aids is rife and contraception is banned get to live the most pitiful existence before eventually dying a horrible death that is really a better life than never being born at all ???
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Post by salopstick on Jun 30, 2010 15:04:17 GMT
Saving lives is a good thing. Ending lives is not. So these babies that are 'saved' in African countries where aids is rife and contraception is banned get to live the most pitiful existence before eventually dying a horrible death that is really a better life than never being born at all ??? top post
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Post by starkiller on Jun 30, 2010 17:32:25 GMT
Not as offensive as buggering kids. Actually, I do realise the Virgin Birth was just another stolen idea from paganism. I'm not the one buggering kids. Obviously that's disgusting and anyone who commits such a crime deserves everything they get. But to make an offensive, sly made up comment like you have just done is pathetic. Anyway, you're someone who believes every conspiracy they read on the internet, and just because it's come from David fucking Icke and is against the general consensus it must be true. And this is coming from someone (myself) who occasionally is a but suspicious of the going's on in this world. Stop regurgitating everything you read on conspiracy forums. You'd accuse the likes of me for doing the same from the bible. Personal insults. No I don't believe every conspiracy, far from it. The slightest bit of questioning and research (not internet) and you'll see Catholicism betrays it Pagan roots at every turn - except Paganism wasn't about political control of the masses. This obvious connection is hardly a conspiracy theory. Catholicism (Christianity) is just another retelling of Pagan beliefs formed into a blunt instrument of control
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 30, 2010 17:51:05 GMT
I'm not the one buggering kids. Obviously that's disgusting and anyone who commits such a crime deserves everything they get. But to make an offensive, sly made up comment like you have just done is pathetic. Anyway, you're someone who believes every conspiracy they read on the internet, and just because it's come from David fucking Icke and is against the general consensus it must be true. And this is coming from someone (myself) who occasionally is a but suspicious of the going's on in this world. Stop regurgitating everything you read on conspiracy forums. You'd accuse the likes of me for doing the same from the bible. Personal insults. No I don't believe every conspiracy, far from it. The slightest bit of questioning and research (not internet) and you'll see Catholicism betrays it Pagan roots at every turn - except Paganism wasn't about political control of the masses. This obvious connection is hardly a conspiracy theory. Catholicism (Christianity) is just another retelling of Pagan beliefs formed into a blunt instrument of control Sorry if you've taken any of it personally, I must have been a bit tired and annoyed last night. I've enjoyed this debate and I'm sorry to start a personal attack on you, it's not what this is about.
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Post by starkiller on Jun 30, 2010 18:04:13 GMT
Personal insults. No I don't believe every conspiracy, far from it. The slightest bit of questioning and research (not internet) and you'll see Catholicism betrays it Pagan roots at every turn - except Paganism wasn't about political control of the masses. This obvious connection is hardly a conspiracy theory. Catholicism (Christianity) is just another retelling of Pagan beliefs formed into a blunt instrument of control Sorry if you've taken any of it personally, I must have been a bit tired and annoyed last night. I've enjoyed this debate and I'm sorry to start a personal attack on you, it's not what this is about. I'm too against casual use of abortion.
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Post by isaaccox on Jun 30, 2010 18:28:08 GMT
ABORTION IS WRONG,YOU WILL GO TO HELL IF YOU DO IT OR SUPPORT IT.
Is what some people think, however, i think that if you want the child, keep it, if you don't then have an abortion.Simple.
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Post by Ariel Manto on Jun 30, 2010 18:31:37 GMT
Blinkered belief is a weakness of the human brain...that's what religion is based on. The teaching of humanity to fellow man is far more important and how the next genration is going to save the planet. '10' BMW's, and 3.0L 4X4's on church carparks is not what life should be about.It should be about looking further than what is written in your chosen 'bible' 2,000 years ago. I agree with that. You could pretty much apply it to any belief, not just religious, one need not forget.
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Post by stokie25 on Jun 30, 2010 18:32:56 GMT
Sal, I too grew babies so you know they have personality long before birth It's a pretty damning statement to suggest that poorer countries shouldn't be allowed the privilege of creation just because they are poor and african.....that opens up a whole new can of worms for me
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Post by salopstick on Jun 30, 2010 18:37:25 GMT
Sal, I too grew babies so you know they have personality long before birth It's a pretty damning statement to suggest that poorer countries shouldn't be allowed the privilege of creation just because they are poor and african.....that opens up a whole new can of worms for me for me its not about poorer countries having the privillege of creation but poorer countries being allowed contraception
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Post by stokie25 on Jun 30, 2010 18:42:21 GMT
And they are salop, but most are muslim and consequently their religion allows public female circumcision which i find both abhorrent and degrading as well as life threatening...it's common practice in 'their religion' so you cannot possibly argue the catholicism stance when that occurs in the world, surely!
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Post by isaaccox on Jun 30, 2010 18:42:37 GMT
Are you ignoring me because you know i'm right?
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Post by stokie25 on Jun 30, 2010 18:45:13 GMT
Me cox? No! My religion is personal to me and i will support it and abide by it...let the heathens rot in hell
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Post by salopstick on Jun 30, 2010 18:46:49 GMT
i dont condone either,
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Post by isaaccox on Jun 30, 2010 18:47:51 GMT
Me cox? No! My religion is personal to me and i will support it and abide by it...let the heathens rot in hell I don't know what you're on about but i totally agree.It's just a good job you had that abortion after our one night stand.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 30, 2010 18:48:41 GMT
the catholic church is against abortion and contraception so anybody that does either is immediatly made a sinner - i dont believe that is what religion is about. i was led to believe that religion, especially christianity (of what catholicism is a part of is all about tolerance, caring, sharing, support and not judging because judging is what god will do so in this respect i feel the catholic church is a tadge hypocritical and that could apply to most religions with different dos and donts
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Post by stokie25 on Jun 30, 2010 18:53:49 GMT
so don't fucking pick on catholics then salop or any one else eh? Let he is who without sin, cast the first stone Revelation 22:14-15 KJV And that was different cox...i had a getoutofhell card that you gave me
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