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Post by jonesinamillion on Jun 29, 2010 22:46:40 GMT
This brings it home for me to be honest boother. And of course I wouldn't be delighted about it, abortions mess with women's bodies and hormones pretty massively. And Jones I refer you to the video I posted earlier so you can be aware of the way that foetus' are often aborted. Just eating pizza so please excuse me if i give it a miss for the moment
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 22:47:40 GMT
Lets say a foetus is a human being with a soul, being completely innocent, wouldn't they go straight to heaven? Which is surely a good thing? They avoid a world of sin, and spend eternity in bliss. That is a genuine question by the way. I'd also like to point out I don't agree with abortion barring any extreme circumstances, so I'm definitely not arguing abortion is a good thing. No and as you probably know full well, the Catholic Church teaches that everyone is born with original sin that is removed during baptism.
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 29, 2010 22:47:57 GMT
Lets say a foetus is a human being with a soul, being completely innocent, wouldn't they go straight to heaven? Which is surely a good thing? They avoid a world of sin, and spend eternity in bliss. That is a genuine question by the way. I'd also like to point out I don't agree with abortion barring any extreme circumstances, so I'm definitely not arguing abortion is a good thing. Does this baby not deserve a shot at life though? In any other circumstance, if you end the life of another human being you get life (or killed in some societies)
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 22:48:11 GMT
This brings it home for me to be honest boother. And Jones I refer you to the video I posted earlier so you can be aware of the way that foetus' are often aborted. Just eating pizza so please excuse me if i give it a miss for the moment Yeah I would personally, bit of an eyeopener so to speak.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 22:50:47 GMT
I don't think rhodesy's taking much flack for his views, though neither has he explained his veiws a eloquently (or graphically) as yourself boother. Though I'm no expert on medicine I don't think t's quite as horific as gouging out a live featus - I think the pregnancy is ended relitavley pain free by drugs and then the body is removed by the most practical means available... a big hook! Abortion is not to be used as a form of birth control but you'd have to consider individual circumstances;for example a seriously physical / mentally disabled child hat could look forward to no quality of life. Or rape victims it must be a torcherous ordeal. Or if the mothers life is at risk, especially where she is the parent of other young children. I do however agree that for the lage part 24 weeks is too far gone. When I was in neonatal intensive care there was a baby delivered at 20 weeks, if it was born any earlier they wouldn't have interveined. When i left 6 weeks later it was still alive so to me 24 weeks is too far gone. It's be interesting to know when an embryo becomes a featus and a featus become a living being and what (if anything) it is aware of during these stages. Thank you Jonesy for posting in a non-provocative and sneeringly bigoted and pigheadedly biased anti-Catholic manner. It's very refreshing! I know it's not a process of gouging out a live baby, and I appreciate the points you've made, even if I don't agree with them. Obviously it would be a torturous ordeal for any rape victim, I don't think anybody would ever consider arguing with that, but I honestly believe that no matter how tragic and awful it is, two wrongs don't make a right, and it is no excuse. I also disagree with the quality of life argument. I think that it is unbelievably arrogant to assume that because a baby could be born disabled that any man or woman has the right to decide whether it should live or die. I could take your point and apply it to people who have been in horrible, maiming accidents and say that "Sorry pal, you're quadroplegic, and you're never going to have any quality of life so I am going to put you out of your misery, regardless of what you say". Just because a foetus doesn't have a voice doesn't mean it is any less worthy of a chance to live its life. The only point you make that I agree with in that little list (before you go on about the amount of time etc) is when the mother's life is at stake; and I've said that all along that I agree with that.
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Post by jonesinamillion on Jun 29, 2010 22:52:36 GMT
the Catholic Church teaches that everyone is born with original sin that is removed during baptism. If that's true then that's another reason the catholic church needs fucking off! How can a beautifull, pure, new born baby be born a sinner FFS?
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Post by One-Two on Jun 29, 2010 22:54:22 GMT
Lets say a foetus is a human being with a soul, being completely innocent, wouldn't they go straight to heaven? Which is surely a good thing? They avoid a world of sin, and spend eternity in bliss. That is a genuine question by the way. I'd also like to point out I don't agree with abortion barring any extreme circumstances, so I'm definitely not arguing abortion is a good thing. No and as you probably know full well, the Catholic Church teaches that everyone is born with original sin that is removed during baptism. Which brings me to another problem. So somebody who, for example, lives in a small village in the Amazon rainforest, has a wife and four children, whom he adores and works all day, every day to grow food for them, has not commited an immoral act since the day he is born etc. etc. would go to hell simply because he has not been baptised, due to the fact that he has never even heard of Jesus or Christianity?
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 22:54:42 GMT
No, he doesn't. He's a very poor, attention seeking, wind up merchant who constantly fails miserably in any attempt at humour... Assuming you can work out what the hell he's supposed to be saying in the first place. I doubt whether you would have the intelligence to understand what I say anyway. It's true. Your senseless pre-pubescent-esque drivel is far too much for me to understand.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 22:54:47 GMT
the Catholic Church teaches that everyone is born with original sin that is removed during baptism. If that's true then that's another reason the catholic church needs fucking off! How can a beautifull, pure, new born baby be born a sinner FFS? I don't agree with it personally, it's only there so all you non followers don't get into our heaven.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 29, 2010 22:55:41 GMT
Abortion is not to be used as a form of birth control but you'd have to consider individual circumstances;for example a seriously physical / mentally disabled child hat could look forward to no quality of life. Or rape victims it must be a torcherous ordeal. Or if the mothers life is at risk, especially where she is the parent of other young children. I do however agree that for the lage part 24 weeks is too far gone. When I was in neonatal intensive care there was a baby delivered at 20 weeks, if it was born any earlier they wouldn't have interveined. When i left 6 weeks later it was still alive so to me 24 weeks is too far gone. It's be interesting to know when an embryo becomes a featus and a featus become a living being and what (if anything) it is aware of during these stages. I agree that the 24 week period is too long but if you look up the figures for when abortions are carried out the vast majority are well before that. The point about a woman having 'no right' over her own body is sickening and so fucking out dated. Bottem line is, abortion is legal in this country, that will not change and no amount of pro-life half truths, lies and propoganda will change that. The sooner these vile cults are stripped of all power and public platform the better.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 22:58:31 GMT
No and as you probably know full well, the Catholic Church teaches that everyone is born with original sin that is removed during baptism. Which brings me to another problem. So somebody who, for example, lives in a small village in the Amazon rainforest, has a wife and four children, whom he adores and works all day, every day to grow food for them, has not commited an immoral act since the day he is born etc. etc. would go to hell simply because he has not been baptised, due to the fact that he has never even heard of Jesus or Christianity? Erm, no if I remember correctly if someone has not been made aware of the word of Christ they are permitted to enter purgatory and ultimately heaven. Basically original sin is a debatable topic and personally I don't believe in it and believe that if someone lives a good honest (mortal sin free life, (no abortions)) life they will spend eternity with our Lord. It's also worth noting that according to the Church that thinking of committing a sin is as bad as following through with it. SO I feel it's my duty to inform you all that despite being men, you're all going to hell.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 23:00:10 GMT
Abortion is not to be used as a form of birth control but you'd have to consider individual circumstances;for example a seriously physical / mentally disabled child hat could look forward to no quality of life. Or rape victims it must be a torcherous ordeal. Or if the mothers life is at risk, especially where she is the parent of other young children. I do however agree that for the lage part 24 weeks is too far gone. When I was in neonatal intensive care there was a baby delivered at 20 weeks, if it was born any earlier they wouldn't have interveined. When i left 6 weeks later it was still alive so to me 24 weeks is too far gone. It's be interesting to know when an embryo becomes a featus and a featus become a living being and what (if anything) it is aware of during these stages. I agree that the 24 week period is too long but if you look up the figures for when abortions are carried out the vast majority are well before that. The point about a woman having 'no right' over her own body is sickening and so fucking out dated. Bottem line is, abortion is legal in this country, that will not change and no amount of pro-life half truths, lies and propoganda will change that. The sooner these vile cults are stripped of all power and public platform the better. 1) Watch the video. 2) Watch the video. 3) Watch the video.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 29, 2010 23:01:54 GMT
If that's true then that's another reason the catholic church needs fucking off! How can a beautifull, pure, new born baby be born a sinner FFS? I don't agree with it personally , it's only there so all you non followers don't get into our heaven. No, its acctually there to keep the pennies rolling into the church. "sorry mrs smith but your 2 day old baby already has sin upon it and will go to hell if she is not baptized. Our rates are......." Just like mcdonalds, starbucks or bp, itis an institution designed to make money.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 23:02:05 GMT
I'd say that the idea of original sin is by far and away one of the most objectionable pieces of Catholic dogma that none but the most hardline believe.
I personally, as a Catholic, don't necessarily believe in a heaven at all, let alone a hell (which I'd wager that most of the modern-day Catholic thinkers would agree with), and I really don't believe that Baptism is the only way for a tabula-rasa infant to gain entry to the afterlife if it should die.
I'd just like to take this opportunity to once again point out that This thread on Catholicism has been started by a non-Catholic, spewing hatred about our faith. Every time this argument happens, it is started by non-Catholics. We are defending our beliefs against another tirade of unprovoked criticism, and mocked, ridiculed and insulted. You have no right to attack us and then get offended when we respond. When we start an evangelical thread calling you all sinners, THEN you can be offended, but I strongly suspect that this will never happen, and if it did, it would get shouted down by the likes of me, Rhodesy and Fr Ted who don't agree with shoving our faith down other peoples throats.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 23:04:57 GMT
I don't agree with it personally , it's only there so all you non followers don't get into our heaven. No, its acctually there to keep the pennies rolling into the church. "sorry mrs smith but your 2 day old baby already has sin upon it and will go to hell if she is not baptized. Our rates are......." Just like mcdonalds, starbucks or bp, itis an institution designed to make money. No, it's not for money making. Admittedly the idea of purgatory was introduced to allow rich people to pay to have their sins removed basically, original sin isn't designed for money making however.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 23:05:06 GMT
No, its acctually there to keep the pennies rolling into the church. "sorry mrs smith but your 2 day old baby already has sin upon it and will go to hell if she is not baptized. Our rates are......." Just like mcdonalds, starbucks or bp, itis an institution designed to make money. Another load of bollocks, in my 21 years of being a Catholic, I can't ever recall being charged a penny to enter a Church, say confession, receive a blessing or communion, or talking to a priest. Carry on blowing it out of your arse because it's just making you look dafter and dafter.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 23:07:38 GMT
I can also confirm that I as a Catholic have never payed a single penny.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 29, 2010 23:07:40 GMT
I agree that the 24 week period is too long but if you look up the figures for when abortions are carried out the vast majority are well before that. The point about a woman having 'no right' over her own body is sickening and so fucking out dated. Bottem line is, abortion is legal in this country, that will not change and no amount of pro-life half truths, lies and propoganda will change that. The sooner these vile cults are stripped of all power and public platform the better. 1) Watch the video. 2) Watch the video. 3) Watch the video. I have seen these peices of catholic propaganda before. they are there for shock value and give no background and fail to give a full account of the procedure. I am also very close to somebody who has been through this. It is not a decision that is taken lightley and causes emence emotional pain. It is something that stays with them forever and does not make them a bad person. Its all very well preaching about it being a 'sin' but with all due respect, none of you have got a fucking clue.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 23:10:30 GMT
I've got to say the majority of this thread is an attack on character rather than rational debate, including you boother.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 29, 2010 23:16:30 GMT
1) Watch the video. 2) Watch the video. 3) Watch the video. I have seen these peices of catholic propaganda before. they are there for shock value and give no background and fail to give a full account of the procedure. I am also very close to somebody who has been through this. It is not a decision that is taken lightley and causes emence emotional pain. It is something that stays with them forever and does not make them a bad person. Its all very well preaching about it being a 'sin' but with all due respect, none of you have got a fucking clue. Hmm. Personally, I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to defend my religion that is being slated and my ideologies and morals that others are discarding as being outdated and 'wrong'. I respect the fact you have real life experience of this but at the end of the day those videos are really what happens in some cases and you have to come to to terms that by you condoning abortion that this is what happens. In my opinion regardless of my religious beliefs I believe that abortion is murder and that it is morally wrong. I'd appreciate it if you decided to respect my opinions and beliefs and not try and say that it's incorrect.
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Post by One-Two on Jun 29, 2010 23:16:43 GMT
I'd just like to take this opportunity to once again point out that This thread on Catholicism has been started by a non-Catholic, spewing hatred about our faith. Every time this argument happens, it is started by non-Catholics. We are defending our beliefs against another tirade of unprovoked criticism, and mocked, ridiculed and insulted. You have no right to attack us and then get offended when we respond. When we start an evangelical thread calling you all sinners, THEN you can be offended, but I strongly suspect that this will never happen, and if it did, it would get shouted down by the likes of me, Rhodesy and Fr Ted who don't agree with shoving our faith down other peoples throats.From a non-Catholic stance, well said Boother, all for a good debate on here, and I've learned quite a lot over the course of this thread, (so thanks in particular to Rhodesy and Boother,) but just abusing someone's beliefs without giving proper arguments or attacking a person's religion without being open-minded enough to take in their replies is pretty pathetic.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 23:18:34 GMT
I've got to say the majority of this thread is an attack on character rather than rational debate, including you boother. I know it is, which is mostly why I've got so wound up and have started doing it myself. I apologise for attacking character, I know it's unacceptable and on most other topics I would never let myself become so riled up. I've handled every other anti-Catholic thread on here very well, even when I've been fighting our corner by myself, but the issue of abortion is so strong for me that it transcends just petty squabbles over the man-made rules of the Catholic Church. If the Church turned around tomorrow and said they'd found a piece of scripture written by Jesus himself with a photo, DNA evidence and written testimony from an army of lawyers confirming that Jesus had said "Abortion is fine, we have no problem with it" that I would reject the Catholic Church in a flash. So again, I apoligise if I've become too wound up and said unacceptable things, it's massively out of character for me, I'm usually quite sedate. Edit- Even if I've become argumentative, I've still debated points and articulated them perfectly well, which is still more than can be said for some on here (all from the other side, might I add).
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 29, 2010 23:20:45 GMT
I'd just like to take this opportunity to once again point out that This thread on Catholicism has been started by a non-Catholic, spewing hatred about our faith. Every time this argument happens, it is started by non-Catholics. We are defending our beliefs against another tirade of unprovoked criticism, and mocked, ridiculed and insulted. You have no right to attack us and then get offended when we respond. When we start an evangelical thread calling you all sinners, THEN you can be offended, but I strongly suspect that this will never happen, and if it did, it would get shouted down by the likes of me, Rhodesy and Fr Ted who don't agree with shoving our faith down other peoples throats.From a non-Catholic stance, well said Boother, all for a good debate on here, and I've learned quite a lot over the course of this thread, (so thanks in particular to Rhodesy and Boother,) but just abusing someone's beliefs without giving proper arguments or attacking a person's religion without being open-minded enough to take in their replies is pretty pathetic. Everyone is so brain washed by the media that religion is bad, religion is this and that. Yet the very same people accuse those who believe in a certain religion of being brainwashed
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 23:24:09 GMT
I've got to say the majority of this thread is an attack on character rather than rational debate, including you boother. I know it is, which is mostly why I've got so wound up and have started doing it myself. I apologise for attacking character, I know it's unacceptable and on most other topics I would never let myself become so riled up. I've handled every other anti-Catholic thread on here very well, even when I've been fighting our corner by myself, but the issue of abortion is so strong for me that it transcends just petty squabbles over the man-made rules of the Catholic Church. If the Church turned around tomorrow and said they'd found a piece of scripture written by Jesus himself with a photo, DNA evidence and written testimony from an army of lawyers confirming that Jesus had said "Abortion is fine, we have no problem with it" that I would reject the Catholic Church in a flash. So again, I apoligise if I've become too wound up and said unacceptable things, it's massively out of character for me, I'm usually quite sedate. Edit- Even if I've become argumentative, I've still debated points and articulated them perfectly well, which is still more than can be said for some on here (all from the other side, might I add). Fair enough, I'm anti-abortion myself as rhodesy knows, I stand my corner(can't be arsed to argue anymore though haha), my point was only one that this ruins arguments, and reduces them to petty squabbles of no substance. Also for the sun readers of this world ( ) these attackd on character will usually sway their own opinion one way or another.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 23:24:18 GMT
It's "cool" to be anti-religion. I completely agree with you there, Ted.
You generally find that the cool, anti-religion crew also swear blind their atheism; when atheism itself is a form of religion, since it is impossible to prove, has no evidence for, and no credible scientist would ever consider devout atheism as a genuine scientific option. They claim he're shoving our beliefs down their throats, but every single time something like this is discussed on here, it's started by someone who wants to "ban Catholicism" or simply belittle it.
Pure and unbridled hypocrisy.
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 29, 2010 23:32:37 GMT
It's "cool" to be anti-religion. I completely agree with you there, Ted. You generally find that the cool, anti-religion crew also swear blind their atheism; when atheism itself is a form of religion, since it is impossible to prove, has no evidence for, and no credible scientist would ever consider devout atheism as a genuine scientific option. They claim he're shoving our beliefs down their throats, but every single time something like this is discussed on here, it's started by someone who wants to "ban Catholicism" or simply belittle it. Pure and unbridled hypocrisy. Yep. And it's the classic; 'Prove to me that there is a God' 'Well prove to me that there isn't'
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2010 23:35:16 GMT
Big 'fuck off' dinosaurs ruled the earth before Jesus or bent Catholic priests....FACT.
I don't know how many miracles are classed as facts.
Catholicism is no different to believing in Santa ....and at least with Santa he's not on the sex offenders register yet.
Both my kids were not baptised as I didn't know which faith was the best form of bullshit ....I still don't.
They both have thanked me for not brainwashing them into one form of religion or another.
It's a waste of a mans life.FFS.!
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Post by Butters on Jun 29, 2010 23:42:46 GMT
Which brings me to another problem. So somebody who, for example, lives in a small village in the Amazon rainforest, has a wife and four children, whom he adores and works all day, every day to grow food for them, has not commited an immoral act since the day he is born etc. etc. would go to hell simply because he has not been baptised, due to the fact that he has never even heard of Jesus or Christianity? Erm, no if I remember correctly if someone has not been made aware of the word of Christ they are permitted to enter purgatory and ultimately heaven. Basically original sin is a debatable topic and personally I don't believe in it and believe that if someone lives a good honest (mortal sin free life, (no abortions)) life they will spend eternity with our Lord. It's also worth noting that according to the Church that thinking of committing a sin is as bad as following through with it. SO I feel it's my duty to inform you all that despite being men, you're all going to hell. So if for a split second someone thinks "I'm going to rob that shop." then two minutes later he realises he was being an idiot and thinks "what the fuck was I thinking?" According to the church he's as much as a sinner as someone who actually does rob a shop? What a stupid stance to make. I'm actually Catholic to and I hate being Catholic, I disagree with the majority of the Catholic church's stances on life. What I don't understand the most about the Catholic church is why confirmation is done when a Catholic is around 10years old. Surely the whole point of confirmation is that you can answer the questions the priest asks your God parents when you get baptised. You should be confirmed when you are 18 and become an adult, at 10 I was brainwashed into being told how being a Catholic is the correct way of life, if I was 18 I would've happily told the priest to stick his religion where the sun doesn't shine. I'm not really educated anymore in the Catholic ways, I stopped giving a shit about my 'religion' a long time ago but I'm pretty sure that confirmation bit is right.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Jun 29, 2010 23:43:52 GMT
Big 'fuck off' dinosaurs ruled the earth before Jesus or bent Catholic priests....FACT. I don't know how many miracles are classed as facts. Catholicism is no different to believing in Santa ....and at least with Santa he's not on the sex offenders register yet. Both my kids were not baptised as I didn't know which faith was the best form of bullshit ....I still don't. They both have thanked me for not brainwashing them into one form of religion or another. It's a waste of a mans life.FFS.! Christianity is concerned primarily with the teachings of Christ, hence the name of the religion. If you want to slate the Old Testament, go and harrass the Jews, because most Christians don't particularly regard the Old Testament as particularly significant towards anything other than explaining Abrahamic roots. I haven't been brainwashed into anything. Religion is there for those that want it, we are all free to leave at any time we want to. And believe me Mumf, in spite of my response to your previous jibe amount my intelligence, I am more than capable of looking at the situation I find myself in and working out what is best for me. Calling myself Catholic is no more dangerous or opressive than calling myself English. Calling myself English is no more oppressive or dangerous than calling myself a Stoke fan, or voting Labour. They are all elements which contribute to me as a person as a whole. I'm one of the biggest critics of Catholicism within the institution myself. It's not a brainwashing cult as some of the mightily prejudiced and uninformed on here so adamantly believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2010 0:08:47 GMT
I have no problem with any particular relgious concept or what any individual wants to believe. I myself went to church and Sunday school as most kids did in my era and I think that a christian belief is good on balance , but I certainly would not advocate indoctrination by any parent as the right thing to do.
I am certainly not prejudiced against one form of religion than another.
I would rather bring my kids up as good citizens than waste my time and theirs blindly following one particular faith.
Blinkered belief is a weakness of the human brain...that's what religion is based on. The teaching of humanity to fellow man is far more important and how the next genration is going to save the planet. '10' BMW's, and 3.0L 4X4's on church carparks is not what life should be about.It should be about looking further than what is written in your chosen 'bible' 2,000 years ago.
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