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Post by jonesinamillion on Jun 28, 2010 0:16:55 GMT
Get a grip rhodesy...
Parents not able to bring up a child due to mental or physical illness, finance or addiction issues? Pregnacy could endanger the life of the mother? Feautus identified with serious disability / illness? Rape victims?
Have a re-think and get back to me.
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Post by One-Two on Jun 28, 2010 0:39:47 GMT
It's very dangerous to take a absolutist stance on moral issues as the Church does, and with issues such as euthanasia, and especially contraception, I strongly disagree with it's stance.
The simple truth is, the Judeo-Christian God is a perfect being, we, on the other hand, are far from perfect. By definition, the creation of something perfect, has to itself, be perfect. Therefore, either God, (let's say he exists,) is not perfect, or, we are perfect, and therefore equals with God.
We cannot both be a perfect God's creation, and imperfect ourselves.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 28, 2010 3:04:50 GMT
It's very dangerous to take a absolutist stance on moral issues as the Church does, and with issues such as euthanasia, and especially contraception, I strongly disagree with it's stance. The simple truth is, the Judeo-Christian God is a perfect being, we, on the other hand, are far from perfect. By definition, the creation of something perfect, has to itself, be perfect. Therefore, either God, (let's say he exists,) is not perfect, or, we are perfect, and therefore equals with God. We cannot both be a perfect God's creation, and imperfect ourselves. Your forgetting the old get out clause. We are not perfect because god gave us 'free will'. And as for abortion, it has fuck all to do with anybody except the mother. It is her choise and hers alone and nobody has the right to condemn any woman for it, least of all the kiddy fiddlers in the church. It sickens me the way this organisation thinks it has the right to interfere in peoples lives and the power these people are given in our society based on 2,000 year old lies and fairy tales.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 28, 2010 7:11:09 GMT
not on about your uncle just priests in general This wouldn't be you putting people into pigeon-holes again, would it? ;D no the catholic church did that all by its self
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Post by Stoke-on-Toronto on Jun 28, 2010 7:54:40 GMT
why don't we ban all religeon while we're at it. In my eyes, abortion is a mortal sin. Contraception however, isn't. well the bible says it's an abomination to eat shelfish. do you eat or shop at restaurants/grocery stores that sell shelfish? i hope not cuz that would be hypocritical. if you went to your friends house and they had a vegetable garden, would you stone them to death if you noticed carrots planted next to tomatoes? the bible says you should. it also says I can sell my daughter into slavery, can you break the news to her for me?
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Post by redstriper on Jun 28, 2010 8:15:45 GMT
having catholic beliefs isn't a problem - if people want to belive that jesus was the son of god and capable of miracles thats up to them, and its harmless.
The problem is the catholic church - which like most authoratitive bodies has forgotten that it's there to serve the people who it is supposed to represent - not the other way around.
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Post by ukcstokie on Jun 28, 2010 12:23:13 GMT
To return to my original point:
Child abuse unfortunately happens everywhere, in many organisations. The problem is the level of complicity that the Catholic Church has had in covering up the child abuse and allowing the perpetrators to continue in their abuse.
Up until last year (I think) there was a Papal instruction that Catholics should take reports of child abuse to the church rather than the police.
Even now, the Pope seems to consider the police (in Belgium) investigating child abuse as a greater "crime" than the act of child abuse it’s self.
Whether you agree with religion or not, the Catholic Church has lost all credibility. Would you trust your children in its protection?
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 28, 2010 12:33:19 GMT
having catholic beliefs isn't a problem - if people want to belive that jesus was the son of god and capable of miracles thats up to them, and its harmless. The problem is the catholic church - which like most authoratitive bodies has forgotten that it's there to serve the people who it is supposed to represent - not the other way around. Do you honestly think the Catholic church has ever believed that for one moment? It's been hierarchical and top-down dictatorial forever. This isn't me being brainlessly anti-Catholic but a serious thought: if we're reducing our famous British religious tolerance towards Muslims, shouldn't other religions be subject to the same rules? I've known some really sound thoughtful Catholics (Boother for one) but I still think it runs Islam a close second in its potential to fuck people's heads up.
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Post by TheGodfather on Jun 28, 2010 13:01:43 GMT
having catholic beliefs isn't a problem - if people want to belive that jesus was the son of god and capable of miracles thats up to them, and its harmless. The problem is the catholic church - which like most authoratitive bodies has forgotten that it's there to serve the people who it is supposed to represent - not the other way around. Do you honestly think the Catholic church has ever believed that for one moment? It's been hierarchical and top-down dictatorial forever. This isn't me being brainlessly anti-Catholic but a serious thought: if we're reducing our famous British religious tolerance towards Muslims, shouldn't other religions be subject to the same rules? I've known some really sound thoughtful Catholics (Boother for one) but I still think it runs Islam a close second in its potential to fuck people's heads up. Sally have you been drinking
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Post by redstriper on Jun 28, 2010 14:06:20 GMT
I'm not disagreeing sal, when I say it's forgotten, i think it forgot very soon after it's inception - the vatican itself stands for excess, intolerence, intransigence, hypocrisy and duplicity in my view.
But if you go on holiday to the greek islands for example, you meet people living, simple honest lives based on catholic beliefs who can't do enough to help you, and set a great example of how being religeous can be a force for good.
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 28, 2010 14:32:08 GMT
I'm not disagreeing sal, when I say it's forgotten, i think it forgot very soon after it's inception - the vatican itself stands for excess, intolerence, intransigence, hypocrisy and duplicity in my view. But if you go on holiday to the greek islands for example, you meet people living, simple honest lives based on catholic beliefs who can't do enough to help you, and set a great example of how being religeous can be a force for good. And again I'm agreeing, this is so full of contradictions and I believe in people having values. I think we're both accepting there's more wrong than right at the moment though. And Bondy, no I'm stone cold sober ;D I've never said I agree with a lot of Muslim principles because I don't, but within sensible reason I do believe in religious and political tolerance and I certainly wouldn't think another human being was worse less or was automatically my enemy simply because of what dogma they happened to be into. Anyway how the hell are you, are you coping with the hot weather ok??
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Post by ravenonthewing on Jun 28, 2010 14:57:16 GMT
;D Send'em off Al ;D I'm alright with the hot weather Sal, I tanned my arse cheaks Sunday by giving myself a wedgey and yanking my Y fronts up my crevis just thought I'd share that with you
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Post by Ariel Manto on Jun 28, 2010 15:54:46 GMT
It's very dangerous to take a absolutist stance on moral issues as the Church does, and with issues such as euthanasia, and especially contraception, I strongly disagree with it's stance. The simple truth is, the Judeo-Christian God is a perfect being, we, on the other hand, are far from perfect. By definition, the creation of something perfect, has to itself, be perfect. Therefore, either God, (let's say he exists,) is not perfect, or, we are perfect, and therefore equals with God. We cannot both be a perfect God's creation, and imperfect ourselves. Or you take the logical stance which states that there is no such thing as perfection as it cannot in itself exist. It's a paradox. The moment that someone reveals their idea of perfection it is immediately warped by anothers view of it. Perfection is always relative and therefore a flawed concept. Hence, the idea of an object, either physical or mthylogical, existing in an absolute state of perfection is completely flawed. Perfection is against the laws of nature and as such cannot exist. If you're arguing against nature, then you're wrong. ;D ;D
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 28, 2010 18:15:11 GMT
Abortion's right? Get a grip! It's the killing of a child, like you'd kill a new born baby?! It's the same thing!
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Post by mermaidsal on Jun 28, 2010 18:21:28 GMT
Abortion's right? Get a grip! It's the killing of a child, like you'd kill a new born baby?! It's the same thing! No it's not. LATE abortion is, but many pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester and the mother didn't even know she was pregnant, you just can't say a baby is a viable life so early, you might as well say the morning after pill was murder too. The limit is set too high though imho, anything past about 16 weeks should be medical emergencies only.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 28, 2010 18:47:52 GMT
Morning after pill is murder IMO.
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Post by rhodesy on Jun 28, 2010 18:52:45 GMT
Get a grip rhodesy... 1)Parents not able to bring up a child due to mental or physical illness, finance or addiction issues? 2)Pregnacy could endanger the life of the mother? 3)Feautus identified with serious disability / illness? 4)Rape victims? Have a re-think and get back to me. 1) Adoption. 2) Called double effect, highly debated topic, Catholic Church doesn't allow it, other Christians more lenient and allow it. 3) This is murder, child has no choice in it's death, murder. 4) Adoption is the answer yet again.
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Post by Ariel Manto on Jun 28, 2010 19:10:23 GMT
Morning after pill is murder IMO. No-one is asking you. You're perfectly entitled to your view and to practice whichever path of life you so desire. But that doesn't mean you are entitled to force your view onto everyone else. Part of the Catholic doctrine is tolerance. If you passionately disagree with abortion - then don't have sex with your girlfriend before marriage either and don't tolerate child abuse.
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 28, 2010 19:18:27 GMT
Catholic Church doesn't allow it And just who are the catholic church to decide what is allowed and what is not? They are nothing and should have no more power or say in people lives than the boy scouts or the train spotters union. They are not elected by anyone to dictate how our lives should be run so they should shut the fuck up. It really pisses me off when you hear news stories on abortion, euthanasia etc and they have a 'chuch spokesman'. None of the churches business. It is time they were put in their place, if people want to follw their rules and brainwashing then good luck to them, but dont inflict it on the rest of us who are aware of the truth.
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Post by TheGodfather on Jun 28, 2010 19:19:47 GMT
Get a grip rhodesy... 1)Parents not able to bring up a child due to mental or physical illness, finance or addiction issues? 2)Pregnacy could endanger the life of the mother? 3)Feautus identified with serious disability / illness? 4)Rape victims? Have a re-think and get back to me. 1) Adoption. 2) Called double effect, highly debated topic, Catholic Church doesn't allow it, other Christians more lenient and allow it. 3) This is murder, child has no choice in it's death, murder. 4) Adoption is the answer yet again. Rhodesy mate, I'm just guessing have you got any Children YET? . When your like me a Dad and now a Granddad you can't help just worring about your Children especially your Lass and now five of my Grandchildren are girls FFS
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 28, 2010 19:21:58 GMT
Abortion's right? Get a grip! It's the killing of a child, like you'd kill a new born baby?! It's the same thing! No it's not. LATE abortion is, but many pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester and the mother didn't even know she was pregnant, you just can't say a baby is a viable life so early, you might as well say the morning after pill was murder too. The limit is set too high though imho, anything past about 16 weeks should be medical emergencies only. When does life become 'life' though? Surely from that very moment the sperm meets the egg, it creates a living thing. They're searching for life on Mars. Do you think if they find some sort of bacteria there, they'll simply dismiss it saying 'it's not life, it's only tiny and not worth bothering with'. Any sort of abortion is a kind of murder in my opinion. I don't see how you can argue that it isn't.
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Post by One-Two on Jun 28, 2010 19:27:05 GMT
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Post by cokecystfit on Jun 28, 2010 19:30:03 GMT
Organised religion should be banned - it produces conditions where people are so repressed that they feel the need to abuse kids - fucked up.
It also leads to war and generally idiotic shit as demonstrated by thegodfather's signature.
Ban them all, it's only fair.
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Post by cokecystfit on Jun 28, 2010 19:34:59 GMT
No it's not. LATE abortion is, but many pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester and the mother didn't even know she was pregnant, you just can't say a baby is a viable life so early, you might as well say the morning after pill was murder too. The limit is set too high though imho, anything past about 16 weeks should be medical emergencies only. When does life become 'life' though? Surely from that very moment the sperm meets the egg, it creates a living thing. They're searching for life on Mars. Do you think if they find some sort of bacteria there, they'll simply dismiss it saying 'it's not life, it's only tiny and not worth bothering with'. Any sort of abortion is a kind of murder in my opinion. I don't see how you can argue that it isn't. when sperm meets the egg? are you saying that god is not involved?????
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 28, 2010 19:36:46 GMT
Organised religion should be banned - it produces conditions where people are so repressed that they feel the need to abuse kids - fucked up. It also leads to war and generally idiotic shit as demonstrated by thegodfather's signature. Ban them all, it's only fair. Yea, let's ban atheism as well and everything else you believe in. And how would you go about 'banning religion?' And you can't come out with sweeping comments like 'religions lead to war'. No. Evil people with idiotic ideas lead to war. You're not telling me that the Christian ethos would encourage people to go to war? Although you probably don't know.
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 28, 2010 19:37:23 GMT
When does life become 'life' though? Surely from that very moment the sperm meets the egg, it creates a living thing. They're searching for life on Mars. Do you think if they find some sort of bacteria there, they'll simply dismiss it saying 'it's not life, it's only tiny and not worth bothering with'. Any sort of abortion is a kind of murder in my opinion. I don't see how you can argue that it isn't. when sperm meets the egg? are you saying that god is not involved????? I hope you're joking
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Post by Yorkshirepotter on Jun 28, 2010 19:38:15 GMT
No it's not. LATE abortion is, but many pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester and the mother didn't even know she was pregnant, you just can't say a baby is a viable life so early, you might as well say the morning after pill was murder too. The limit is set too high though imho, anything past about 16 weeks should be medical emergencies only. When does life become 'life' though? Surely from that very moment the sperm meets the egg, it creates a living thing. They're searching for life on Mars. Do you think if they find some sort of bacteria there, they'll simply dismiss it saying 'it's not life, it's only tiny and not worth bothering with'. Any sort of abortion is a kind of murder in my opinion. I don't see how you can argue that it isn't. OK, so how far back do we take it? With the logic on show here, surley any sperm that is wasted is wrong so every wank is murder, because those sperm 'could' have fertilised an egg,become a cell, developed into a foetus and become a baby? Oh and heres a doozy for the god squad.... www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hObTWdaGAU_0O_dQ1NFJUVO9ZYoQD9GIE2P00
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Post by Beloved Monkfish on Jun 28, 2010 19:45:05 GMT
When does life become 'life' though? Surely from that very moment the sperm meets the egg, it creates a living thing. They're searching for life on Mars. Do you think if they find some sort of bacteria there, they'll simply dismiss it saying 'it's not life, it's only tiny and not worth bothering with'. Any sort of abortion is a kind of murder in my opinion. I don't see how you can argue that it isn't. OK, so how far back do we take it? With the logic on show here, surley any sperm that is wasted is wrong so every wank is murder, because those sperm 'could' have fertilised an egg,become a cell, developed into a foetus and become a baby? Oh and heres a doozy for the god squad.... www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hObTWdaGAU_0O_dQ1NFJUVO9ZYoQD9GIE2P00No. The fact is the sperm hasn't yet fertilised the egg. Once it meets the egg, THEN it becomes life. To say that every wank is murder is a stupid (but funny ;D) thing to say I agree because obviosuly an egg isn't fertilised every time during intercourse. I'm saying that once something comes together (sperm and egg) life begins. What I find hard to understand is how a foetus at one week under the abortion limit (if you like) is any less of a life than one after.
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Post by ravenonthewing on Jun 28, 2010 19:49:08 GMT
Organised religion should be banned - it produces conditions where people are so repressed that they feel the need to abuse kids - fucked up. It also leads to war and generally idiotic shit as demonstrated by thegodfather's signature. Ban them all, it's only fair. "Religions repressive". Then he says Ban them all ;D
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Post by TheGodfather on Jun 28, 2010 19:51:50 GMT
I'm not disagreeing sal, when I say it's forgotten, i think it forgot very soon after it's inception - the vatican itself stands for excess, intolerence, intransigence, hypocrisy and duplicity in my view. But if you go on holiday to the greek islands for example, you meet people living, simple honest lives based on catholic beliefs who can't do enough to help you, and set a great example of how being religeous can be a force for good. And again I'm agreeing, this is so full of contradictions and I believe in people having values. I think we're both accepting there's more wrong than right at the moment though. And Bondy, no I'm stone cold sober ;D I've never said I agree with a lot of Muslim principles because I don't, but within sensible reason I do believe in religious and political tolerance and I certainly wouldn't think another human being was worse less or was automatically my enemy simply because of what dogma they happened to be into. Anyway how the hell are you, are you coping with the hot weather ok?? I don't know how you cope sweetheart, but my bones seem to love this weather. Just a bit sore today because Sunday is Jessica's Horse riding day and my family will always come first, so I missed the first half of Englands shite and stood up for what seemed like ages. My friends kept trying to get me to sit down, but my pride won't let me. Evening Frase
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