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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 16:05:06 GMT
Just for balance, in 2006-07 Sunderland lost their first 4 league games, were bottom of the table in August and finished the season as Champions. It's a strange league. And won their 5,6 and 7th game so after 7 games they had 9 points having sacked their manager. 2 big differences there already! It's pedantic, but I think Niall Quinn stepped down and brought Roy Keane in. The point is it was a fantastic run after Christmas that made them Champions that season. They were around mid table in December. Still would argue discussing the points required to stay up in this league in September is a bit daft. I just cannot seeing this squad being relegated from this league. Regardless of which manager we end up with, I would still say we are more likely to be promoted than relegated.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 15:53:56 GMT
I accept that. My point is that this is a weird league. Go on a run and anything can happen. Villa came from nowhere with a late run last season. I also think talking about how many points we need to avoid relegation after 7 games is bit panicky. There are 39 games and 117 points still to play for. True! But if you're going to go on that kind of impressive run, the signs aren't often kept as well hidden as we're keeping them Especially when coming off a 20-game run of absolute dross from the previous season. It's quite hard to believe a run like that is just going to emerge from the clear blue sky - but we live in hope (we've got nowt else!) Yep, my irrational mix of blind faith and optimism! It looks unlikely but it's a funny old game. He's got something, but I just hope he can bring it all together at once in time. A bit of luck wouldn't go amiss either...
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 15:41:25 GMT
I accept that. My point is that this is a weird league. Go on a run and anything can happen. Villa came from nowhere with a late run last season. I also think talking about how many points we need to avoid relegation after 7 games is bit panicky. There are 39 games and 117 points still to play for.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 15:03:41 GMT
With our squad I don't think we should fear anyone in this league. I agree we were pasted in Nathan's first game, but the Derby game aside, they've been a bit hit and miss this season. They do seem to have the knack of selling their best players and replacing them with equally good ones though. Be nice for Scott Hogan to play and score there. Isn't that where he earned his big money move to Villa? In my head for whatever reason I can't see Jones playing 2 up top (we absolutely must though). I can see him playing Gregory up top on his own again. I certainly don't think we'll take Brentford on in an attacking sense. In fact, I can see him playing 4-5-1, shoving Bruno into LB, then McClean for LM, Ince RM, NDiaye - Etebo - Clucas the CM's, then Gregory up top on his own. My ideal is 4-2-3-1 or get cracking on making this diamond work.
Yeah that was when Hogan got his big money move to Villa, didn't work out too well for him really though in the end. I'm not sure he'll play 2 up away from home either. I think he might tweak it slightly from Saturday. We looked good in patches again but yet again were undone by poor defending. I think there will be some pressure to play 2 up at home though. It seems nearly too simple, but an old fashioned 4-4-2 with the full backs staying at home, the African powerhouse centre mid, Ince and Clucas wide with Gregory + 1 other up front might work He might persist with trying to work it into his diamond though, which I don't mind if he creates as many opportunities as it did against Derby.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 14:27:49 GMT
It's a bigger game than it should be because of our dreadful start obviously. Nothing to fear though. Certainly Etebo in and really looking forward to seeing how him and Badou play together for a few games. I also think he'll stick with 3 CBs. Still feel like he's close to making it a bit better. But no doubt time's running out for him. A win going into the two big home games against Huddersfield and Forest would be fantastic. I wish there was nothing to fear. We got completely outplayed in January, and I expect the same again unfortunately. But I agree I'm looking forward to seeing Etebo and NDiaye playing together without Allen, see what happens. A win would be massive. I'm still in negative nancy mode right now though so I can't see it!
With our squad I don't think we should fear anyone in this league. I agree we were pasted in Nathan's first game, but the Derby game aside, they've been a bit hit and miss this season. They do seem to have the knack of selling their best players and replacing them with equally good ones though. Be nice for Scott Hogan to play and score there. Isn't that where he earned his big money move to Villa?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 14:22:27 GMT
It was indeed. Some of you may remember we beat them at home (Rory broke his leg on debut on loan from them).
But the key to their success was that they only lost 1 and drew 3 after Christmas. (We also got a draw at their place)
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 14:15:21 GMT
It's a bigger game than it should be because of our dreadful start obviously.
Nothing to fear though. Certainly Etebo in and really looking forward to seeing how him and Badou play together for a few games. I also think he'll stick with 3 CBs.
Still feel like he's close to making it a bit better. But no doubt time's running out for him. A win going into the two big home games against Huddersfield and Forest would be fantastic.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 13:58:53 GMT
Just for balance, in 2006-07 Sunderland lost their first 4 league games, were bottom of the table in August and finished the season as Champions.
It's a strange league.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 13:50:59 GMT
It would help if that 50mil was spent well, don't get me wrong we're clearly in the shit as it stands but people band that about as if it was well spent and Jones is the one fucking it all up, it isn't that b&w. They have both been as bad as each other. Whilst Jones is clearly worse given his record it doesn't mean Rowett was somehow wonderful. Two managers not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do and here we are. I'm not sure that's right. I don't know what constitutes "being qualified" for the job, but both were good candidates. GR had achieved some success at both Birmingham and Derby at this level. Some people were advocating him to replace Mark Hughes. NJ had won promotion with Luton Town and had them top of the next league straight after that promotion, playing attacking football and scoring lots of goals. How were they not qualified for the jobs they were being asked to do? In the words of Roy Keane, that's nonsense.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 17, 2019 9:40:25 GMT
Can I add Ed de Gooey, (Liam Brady?) and Marc Muniesta (Denis Smith)
Talking pf Pej was it Gary Newbon who pronounced his surname like "paycheck". Maybe Brian Moore. Micky Paycheck makes him sound like an accountant for the Mafia.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 15:55:01 GMT
There's still part of me that irrationally thinks it might all click with Jones somehow and we'll regret it if we pull the trigger. That feeling gets smaller by the week though and it really isn't supported by anything tangible he's done since coming to the club... I think it's based on us playing some tidy stuff and actually creating some chances, and the prospect of just jacking it all in for a greyer than grey pragmatist and playing for a set piece here and there just chokes my soul a bit. Needs must though I guess. We can't keep losing every week. That's exactly where I am. Probably deluding myself, but when you see a team have about 20 odd goal attempts in a couple of games, you think shall we stick with this a bit and just see? The league is pretty average and if he can just find the balance there really isn't anybody to fear.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 15:37:02 GMT
Certainly don't mind you asking, and it is only "glimpses". I think it's the intention to play adventurous attacking football. I'm not saying it's working with any consistency obviously, but I genuinely believe that is what he wants to do. There were those two games, Charlton and Derby where they created a lot of chances. I still don't think we've seen our best team yet either. Certainly agree with your second statement. The stats are terrible. But would you not agree that part of Chris Hughton's appeal is that you know exactly what you are going to get? Organisation, a rigid defensive set-up and the hope that we get a goal then have what we hold. Personally, for me (and I know not you) that's worse than Tony Pulis. At least with a TP side there is some fire in the belly. I wouldn't be advocating either of those two right now. We've made this decision to have a radical change and take a chance. I would say let's absolutely exhaust all possibility of it succeeding before we ditch it. If you string a few results together in this league you can climb the table quickly. I'm not sure it's time to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. Hughton has been known to set up very defensively however when get got sides promoted they have been good to watch. Really really want to agree with you about Jones but finding it very difficult. One up top simply doesn't work with these players for me Whoever is in charge, Jones, Hughton,Pulis,Jesus of Nazareth...will find it very difficult to stop players giving stupid goals away. It's an epidemic throughout. There are so many posters whose opinions I respect making reasoned and objective cases for change. And of course I get it. I'm probably wrong. That's my track record! I actually think Hughton is underated - I take the point about getting teams promoted, and it's true that ultra pragmatism gives promoted teams in the Prem a decent chance of survival. He's almost a victim of his own effectiveness and ambitious chairmen wanting more. But I wanted a Nuno Espirito Santo, a Farke or even a Dean Smith or Billy Wilder. I thought Nathan might break the mould of promotion and consolidation. I thought he might have a real go, almost Kevin Keegan style. Give us a bit of style and swagger. I saw those 7-0 results at Luton, them out scoring Manchester City and wanted that for us. If there is the slightest chance, the most remote possibility from this point that he could recreate that, I would still be prepared to take that chance at this time. I am certain that we won't be relegated. The board will have to replace him if this losing streak continues, whether it's down to bad luck, bad management or poor play. So I'm taking the view that right now, we haven't got that much to lose, but potentially, a hell of a lot to gain.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 15:24:38 GMT
Certainly don't mind you asking, and it is only "glimpses". I think it's the intention to play adventurous attacking football. I'm not saying it's working with any consistency obviously, but I genuinely believe that is what he wants to do. There were those two games, Charlton and Derby where they created a lot of chances. I still don't think we've seen our best team yet either. Certainly agree with your second statement. The stats are terrible. But would you not agree that part of Chris Hughton's appeal is that you know exactly what you are going to get? Organisation, a rigid defensive set-up and the hope that we get a goal then have what we hold. Personally, for me (and I know not you) that's worse than Tony Pulis. At least with a TP side there is some fire in the belly. I wouldn't be advocating either of those two right now. We've made this decision to have a radical change and take a chance. I would say let's absolutely exhaust all possibility of it succeeding before we ditch it. If you string a few results together in this league you can climb the table quickly. I'm not sure it's time to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet. I agree with you but i fail to understand why Campbell gets so little time he has the pace we lack i am aware he may not have the stamina for 90 minutes but he never will have with short cameos. I see that criticism too, and one of the most frustrating aspects at the moment is the chopping and changing. Personally, I wonder if this is his biggest challenge at Stoke. It sounds crazy sitting bottom of the league, but in the Championship he has almost an embarrassment of riches. Managing a big squad is maybe a new challenge for him. He's going to upset a few people but he's got to stick with a "first team" in my opinion, then bring his replacements in way more gradually. We can't keep making 5 and 6 changes each game. All the positions still seem to be up for grabs. There's only really Sam Clucas who seems to be delivering consistently.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 15:09:35 GMT
I'm probably in a minority of one, but if I were the chairman, which thank the Lord I'm not, I'd still be sticking with Nathan Jones for a while longer. I still see glimpses of something. If he can get a break and turn it around, I have a feeling it could be as good as its been bad. There is nothing for Stoke City to fear from Brentford or anybody else in this league. Chris Hughton is a safe pair of hands for sure, but I'm not sure it's going to be much fun along the way. If we continue to give Nathan the chance to find his best blend it could be a hell of a ride. Just the start we wanted on Saturday, and then he is dealt another blow with Joe's sending off. One of these days we'll get the rub of the green, a much needed win and things will begin to turn around. Still time to hold our collective nerve for me. What glimpses of something do you see if you don't mind me asking? All I see is a team struggling painfully to score, and who's conceded two or more goals in 11 of our last 13 games. A goal difference of minus ten after seven games in this league is little short of a disgrace. Certainly don't mind you asking, and it is only "glimpses". I think it's the intention to play adventurous attacking football. I'm not saying it's working with any consistency obviously, but I genuinely believe that is what he wants to do. There were those two games, Charlton and Derby where they created a lot of chances. I still don't think we've seen our best team yet either. Certainly agree with your second statement. The stats are terrible. But would you not agree that part of Chris Hughton's appeal is that you know exactly what you are going to get? Organisation, a rigid defensive set-up and the hope that we get a goal then have what we hold. Personally, for me (and I know not you) that's worse than Tony Pulis. At least with a TP side there is some fire in the belly. I wouldn't be advocating either of those two right now. We've made this decision to have a radical change and take a chance. I would say let's absolutely exhaust all possibility of it succeeding before we ditch it. If you string a few results together in this league you can climb the table quickly. I'm not sure it's time to throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 14:48:27 GMT
I'm probably in a minority of one, but if I were the chairman, which thank the Lord I'm not, I'd still be sticking with Nathan Jones for a while longer. I still see glimpses of something. If he can get a break and turn it around, I have a feeling it could be as good as its been bad. There is nothing for Stoke City to fear from Brentford or anybody else in this league. Chris Hughton is a safe pair of hands for sure, but I'm not sure it's going to be much fun along the way. If we continue to give Nathan the chance to find his best blend it could be a hell of a ride. Just the start we wanted on Saturday, and then he is dealt another blow with Joe's sending off. One of these days we'll get the rub of the green, a much needed win and things will begin to turn around. Still time to hold our collective nerve for me. I’m the complete opposite mate. I’d sack Jones this instant and have Hughton in before Jones got back to Wales. I’d take a safe pair of hands in a flash right now. Totally understand that and respect it too. You are probably right - I couldn't have imagined this start to the season. The results don't lie and it's beyond shocking. But if... and it's a massive if, he finds a way to utilise his best players, I think he will try and play attacking football, which in the long term will be more entertaining and rewarding than Hughton's (highly effective) safety first policy. However much bad luck he's had, he needs some results fast though or the board will be left with no option but to make a change.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 16, 2019 14:21:59 GMT
I'm probably in a minority of one, but if I were the chairman, which thank the Lord I'm not, I'd still be sticking with Nathan Jones for a while longer.
I still see glimpses of something. If he can get a break and turn it around, I have a feeling it could be as good as its been bad. There is nothing for Stoke City to fear from Brentford or anybody else in this league.
Chris Hughton is a safe pair of hands for sure, but I'm not sure it's going to be much fun along the way. If we continue to give Nathan the chance to find his best blend it could be a hell of a ride.
Just the start we wanted on Saturday, and then he is dealt another blow with Joe's sending off.
One of these days we'll get the rub of the green, a much needed win and things will begin to turn around. Still time to hold our collective nerve for me.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 13, 2019 15:42:53 GMT
I have a lot of sympathy and respect for the Coates family. I agree that without Peter's determination and money we would not have enjoyed those golden 10 years in the Premier League.
However, the comparisons of running a football club to a normal business are difficult. If you install a machine or some software, you know what you're going to get. You don't with players and managers. Past performance is not necessarily an indicator of future results.
Since Peter returned in 2007 (?), they re-recruited Pulis, then had a smooth transition to Hughes. They backed both managers, almost too well. I would also argue that both Rowett and Jones were bold, ambitious, progressive appointments. Again, they backed Rowett.
They have looked after us as supporters. I am proud of the season ticket price freeze and away travel incentives. A refreshing change in today's money obsessed football world.
They have to make decisions with a degree of risk. Get it right and you're a genius. But make a mistake...
In hindsight, the timing of Hughes's dismissal and his replacement was badly judged. Easy to say now and they have to make that difficult decision and get the timing right.
I am one of those who would have stuck with MH until the end of the season, then made the change in a more planned way. Easy for me to say though sitting here, and I understand why they made the change when they did.
I'm a little saddened by some of the reactions to the Coates family. The family can only get involved in certain key decisions. After that, they have to trust the rest of their team to deliver.
The Coates family have put tens, maybe a hundred million of their own money into the football club. They'll probably never see that money back again and we are fortunate to have that level of backing. A locally based club with local ownership is something I'm proud of, and maybe we focus on the positives of what we have rather than the negatives of where we are at the moment.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 13, 2019 14:48:19 GMT
Have Radio Stoke tweeted in the Welsh vernacular?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 11:52:14 GMT
I broadly agree, but also think there were promising signs to be seen against Charlton and Derby. With Etebo, a fit Powell and that lad Gregory Hogan playing up front, it's like a new team ;-) Could be. But we've had this talk for months. So they need to show us. Let's hope so. Talking of Gregory Hogan, that fella Dixon Mills was a decent right back...
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 11:48:30 GMT
He seems to be the only one consistently in the starting 11.
I think he'll play because, I suspect like you, Ndiaye is hoping to winter in Istanbul.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 11:39:43 GMT
I remain convinced it was a compromised formation to tighten up at the back. It will be interesting if Badou wants to play. He'll never have a better opportunity to "rest" Joe, and Big Pete in the middle is nailed on. Would he play Badou next to Pete or at the base I wonder? I've read some articles in which it says Badou is best played as more of an attacking midfielder than a holding one, id like to see him play more advanced. we could play Etebo and Badou and have woods sit in behind them. I like that too. The African powerhouse of a centre midfield two with the Ginger Ninja snapping behind them. That might allow Nicky Powell to stroll about with a cigar behind the front two, just looking for angles without actually having to run all that much. Could be good - but he would have to sacrifice two of his favourites. Sadly I also don't think Badou wants to play anymore and will only talk Turkey.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 10:44:22 GMT
Yeah, I wasn’t sold on the diamond but it was starting to look as if there might be something there with the chances created. The fact that he panicked and ditched it worries me and made me question if he really doesn’t know what he’s doing after all. I would say the pointer is he had six months to fine tune it, in terms of both coaching and personnel, and it's been hopeless. I broadly agree, but also think there were promising signs to be seen against Charlton and Derby. With Etebo, a fit Powell and that lad Gregory Hogan playing up front, it's like a new team ;-)
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 10:41:39 GMT
Shine on you crazy diamond? I like this formation but think it will be Butland and Smith for Fed and Ed. Be good if Powell was fit. Fly out of the traps and get after them. If you are going to go Nath, might as well go down fighting with all guns blazing. Good luck lads - you're due a bit and a good home win I hope. Yeah, I wasn’t sold on the diamond but it was starting to look as if there might be something there with the chances created. The fact that he panicked and ditched it worries me and made me question if he really doesn’t know what he’s doing after all. I remain convinced it was a compromised formation to tighten up at the back. It will be interesting if Badou wants to play. He'll never have a better opportunity to "rest" Joe, and Big Pete in the middle is nailed on. Would he play Badou next to Pete or at the base I wonder?
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 9:44:28 GMT
Federici Edwards Collins Batth McClean Woods Clucas Etebo Powell Hogan Gregory Shine on you crazy diamond? I like this formation but think it will be Butland and Smith for Fed and Ed. Be good if Powell was fit. Fly out of the traps and get after them. If you are going to go Nath, might as well go down fighting with all guns blazing. Good luck lads - you're due a bit and a good home win I hope.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 9:17:19 GMT
Personally, I would rather give Jones more time to get his brand of swashbuckling football to work.
Definitely more interesting than the uber-pragmatic, defensive Hughton. I'd rather have Tony's blood and thunder than that.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 10, 2019 9:03:23 GMT
So you think he can survive either 2 defeats or 1draw and a defeat🤔What gives you such confidence? I don't think he'll lose the next 2 but even if he did I don't think he'll be fired. If we're looking like it's likely we could go down in a month's time then things will change. This is a long term project, the board will only fire him as a very last resort. There's only been a few games played this season and after having 4 managers in just over 18 months I think he'll get a lot more time than if he was say the 2nd manager in 18 months. That's exactly how I read it. I think they will have to stick with him until it looks like we would be relegated if we didn't make the change. No way we are at that point yet. 6 games in with a new squad. Still early doors in terms of "the project". He's due a bit of luck and after this bumpy start he might still turn it around. Let's hope so.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 9, 2019 8:46:02 GMT
Won’t be too long before WSL attracts more sponsorship than EFL Yes indeed, you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows ! But don't forget, the pump doesn't work cause the vandals took the handles ;-)
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 6, 2019 12:00:59 GMT
If it was Adkins, Monk or Jones, I'd stick rather than twist! I'm too lazy to vote, but share your sentiments. I loved the Pulis years and Ricardo made the football entertaining on his own. But agree, don't really get the clamour for his return. But then I don't get Hughton either. Another very defensive manager. Might as well give Nathan more time. If he gets it right, I think there is more to gain than the other candidates.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 6, 2019 8:42:01 GMT
Fuck me that second assist from Shaq Agree there was a real connect between Shaq and Arne wasn’t their. Spotting the gap and Arnie knowing that’s where the ball was destined is pure footballing genius. Something totally lacking at present when we can’t even get the basics right of running and accurate passing forward. In fairness to MH, he said that was something they had identified and worked on. With Bojan deeper and no obvious striker to mark, they felt they could exploit that space with Arnie flying in from the left. Shaq was playing the ball to the middle of the box - he must have been aware of Arnie steaming in as they had been working on it. Arnie hit the post in the first half too. We absolutely took them apart. Beautiful football. We were against one of the most expensively assembled teams in Europe and for 45 minutes they just couldn't cope with us. "We're taking the piss" rang out across the pitch- against Manchester City. I'm not sure we'll ever see a day like that again.
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Post by okeydokeystokie2 on Sept 5, 2019 16:30:19 GMT
I'm ever the optimist! Believe in the power of a positive attitude... Powell's definitely got something and was clearly integral to NJ's plans. Take him out, plus Ryan and add Jack's uncharacteristically bad form and it's the spine of the team. We need a bit of a break, don't we? I think that Powell or Duffy might be better suited to that role than Ince. I like Ince but I'm not sure where he fits into NJ's preferred 4-4-2 diamond - maybe he might work as a second striker, drifting in from a wider position? Fair points all.
I would indeed persevere with Powell if possible (not saying I don't rate him, just guessing that he'll hardly ever play - which made his signing a huge gamble of course).
So we'd therefore need a fully-firing Duffy also.
No, I wouldn't go for Ince there either. He was flippin' useless for the most part of last season anyway and, Charlton aside (a very good goal btw), has not been a huge amount better this, has he?
IF he had stuck with the diamond, both he and Verlinden (obviously out of it short term now anyway) would be surplus for me.
So the fact that he hasn't (stuck with it) and played all sorts of shapes, to me, means that they should ideally both have been in contention as wide(er) men - Verlinden also looked sharp at Charlton I thought.
It's all a bit of a muddle really isn't it?
And by "a bit" I actually mean "an almighty one".
It is a muddle at the moment and I've put the argument forward that NJ has somewhat sacrificed his principles in a scramble for a clean sheet and points. Personally, I think there was enough promise at Charlton and home to Derby for him to stick with it. Let's attack from the first whistle against Bristol City and put one of those chances away. If we could build a two goal lead it would be so much easier to manage the game. For me personally, I would stick with Jack in goals, I would play Nathan Collins as one of my CBs and I would give Ryan Woods the holding job. Etebo starts with Powell ahead and Gregory plus one other. That's my strong spine and I fit the others around that. I personally think James McClean has done enough to keep the LWB spot. That leaves him to find a centre mid partner for Pete, settle on his RWB and CB that best fits Collins, then find the best partner for the linking striker Gregory. I am sure they can turn this round. It needs belief, a bit more stability, cut out the errors, take your chances and get that win. Confidence, performances and results will follow.
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