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Post by Do it for bringbackthevic on Feb 13, 2008 18:22:17 GMT
Suggest you watch the match. From the kick off the ball was played up the field.Cort should have headed clear but missed it and John did the rest. ;D ;D ;D What a pisser that statement is. Played up the field? they'd just feckin kicked off, they where already half way up field and they spread it wide 1st of all, Where was Lawrence or Griffin? then he cut in and walloped it whilst Cort & Ryan where doing there jobs, guarding the edge of the area watching the line.
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Post by simpson on Feb 13, 2008 18:37:10 GMT
yh aerially is a real word. y u fucking bothered anwyay .cunt actually i dont give a fuck if it aint a real word
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Post by RAF on Feb 13, 2008 18:43:09 GMT
I suggest you watch the first goal again and look where Shawcross is when John hits the ball, he's actually behind him further up the field.
H
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Post by northantsash on Feb 13, 2008 18:45:10 GMT
ceejays i don't know whether you go regularly or not, but seems to me as though you have seen little of cort to judge him like that. he possibly was at fault for a goal last night, but he then made several excellent headed clearances at 3-2. also if you were at wolves on saturday, you would have seen a good defensive display from him, clearances and good tackles, one on ebanks blake comes to mind. everyone is entitled to an opinion, mine is that players make mistakes, but from what ive seen of cort he is a good defender and he bloody scores goals.
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Post by potters 22 on Feb 13, 2008 18:58:04 GMT
1st game was it ceejays? Cant be doin with these glory hunting 1 game in a blue moon fans! Everyone not just cort came out in the 2nd half thinking they'd won already. Totally unfair to single out cort! We won ffs,if we'd have drawn 0.0 youd be moaning then!
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Post by adamsson on Feb 13, 2008 18:59:52 GMT
It's true he can't defend or rather he doesn't tackle. He is VERY good with his head and a better striker than his brother ( but there again I'm a better striker than his brother ;D) and he is very good at clearing headers and clearing hoofs but he doesn't tackle and he does rely on the superb Shawcross to tidy up for his mistakes
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Post by RAF on Feb 13, 2008 19:03:21 GMT
Potters, if he paid his money he is allowed his opinion , which is as valid as these 'I go every game' heroes who think they are better than everyone else. I actually don't agree with him, but to question his opinion because it might be his first game or he doesn't go that often is wrong.
H
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Post by dadofsam on Feb 13, 2008 19:20:55 GMT
Do you think you can learn to be a leader - or is it there naturally?
I think Ryan might emerge as a candidate for this role. He's still a bit new to the club and younger than his other usual partners but giving a yardie like Fuller a bit of verbal grief is a good start.
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fce
Youth Player
Posts: 377
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Post by fce on Feb 13, 2008 19:22:41 GMT
shut up you bunch of clowns the bloke is right to his opinion just because he doesnt agree with you lot does that make him wrong to have a say? im with him on it aswell hes class in the air the ball on the deck he worries the fuckin life out of me and he is also slow im not saying hes shit by any means but hes over rated
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Hammo
Youth Player
Posts: 278
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Post by Hammo on Feb 13, 2008 19:28:49 GMT
I agree that Pugh doesnt win the headers at far post, but recently he has been outstanding pushing up from his postion. If anything, Griffin is the one to blame for the communication part. Not only is he captain but also more experienced than Cort. From where i sat last night it didnt seem like he was overly fussed that the team's morale seemed to have drastically decreased after the 2 goals were conceded.
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Post by Olgrligm on Feb 13, 2008 19:36:23 GMT
I think it’s fair to say something is worryingly wrong at the back. Against Cardiff we had a similar temporary defensive nervous breakdown right after Mama missed his second sitter. Before that we let Preston almost take control of a game were coasting. Against Wolves and Charlton there were periods where it seemed the opposition could attack our goal at will. I think blaming Cort is wrong but fuck knows what the problem is. I'm with this. The one thing I will say is that when we concede goals in the 6 yards box, as we do all too often, I've seen him mark ineffectively a few times, not really challenging his man in the air. More than anything, we need a leader at the back.
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Post by scfclifer on Feb 13, 2008 19:50:53 GMT
cort can't defend pissa ;d
the actim index disagrees my freind
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Post by bunnyscfc on Feb 13, 2008 20:40:53 GMT
Although ceejays might have gone slightly too far in some of the criticism of Leon Cort, the jury is still out big-time on Corty for me. Whilst you simply cannot overlook what he offers in the opponent’s box I feel that…. a) whilst he wins header after header (being the biggest bloke on the pitch usually helps with this!), rarely does he put a commanding tackle in. b) he rarely, if ever, gets ‘touch-tight’ to his man and too often allows him to turn and run at him. Compare this to Shawcross, who doesn’t let a man past. Okay, he runs the risk of a yellow, but I want to see my defenders putting tackles I rather than letting their man face them. Stern John, even goals apart, murdered both centre halves last night with his movement – he needed a kick, just as Powell did all night to our best player to stop him playing. Must admit, I’d quite like to see John up top with Ricardo at Stoke. c) As a quarter-decent centre half (ex-League of Wales -1 ears & several stone ago!!!) I always look at the par – sorry, but I don’t see Ryan and Leon as a pair, yet. In fact, they’re a long, long way off being a solid pairing. Ryan is the leader of the two and yet he’s nearly a decade younger. d) and, daft as it sounds, I really worry about a centre half that doesn’t get booked, especially when you see the plums we regularly get in charge. Whilst ceejays might have gone slightly OTT, some of the replies show a disregard for someone’s opinion on SCFC. Just because we are doing well doesn’t mean it can’tgo even better. No clean sheet in 11 (I think) shows that we have defensive problems. We may eventually rue the fact that City can’t keep it tight. We are all Stokies and have different opinions. That’s what sport is all about, what football is all about, and what internet forums are all about. Indeed, my old man rates Cort a lot more highly than me but doesn’t play the “I’ve seen more games” or “You can’t go very often youth” card, every time we don’t agree. You’ll be telling folk to “F off up the Vale….” next.
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Post by fullerlegend on Feb 13, 2008 20:45:14 GMT
lets smite!
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Oatcakes
Academy Starlet
This monkeys gone to heaven!
Posts: 128
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Post by Oatcakes on Feb 13, 2008 20:54:38 GMT
Oh, thats why we keep wining when Cort plays - its because he can't defend!
Ah - i get it now ;-)
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Post by tazi on Feb 13, 2008 21:01:21 GMT
Perm any one from either Cort or Shawcross to play alongside an Higginbottom type leader and i dare say that our goal difference would now be around +25.
Sadly not one out of Ryan or Leon is a leader and this could well be the difference between an automatic promotion place or a play-off position because quite simply we cannot rely upon us having to score at least 3 goals in order for us to take 3 points. Personally speaking i am of the opinion that we have paid well over the odds for Leon.
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Post by Olgrligm on Feb 13, 2008 21:06:11 GMT
Here is a list of defences that have kept clean sheets for us this season:
vs Cardiff - Wright, Higginbotham, Shawcross, Dickinson
vs Wolves - Zakuani, Hill, Shawcross, Dickinson
vs Burnley - Wright, Cort, Shawcross, Pugh
vs Sheffield United No statistics available, I assume it was Cort and Shawcross in the middle
vs Watford See above
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Post by A-teen_six_T3 on Feb 13, 2008 21:08:48 GMT
HOW MANY times as Cort dived in front of a ball to stop it going, cleared off, the line, bloack certain goal bound efforts..
"Leon Cort Can't defend" is equivlent to saying Hitler was a pretty nice bloke
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Post by tazi on Feb 13, 2008 22:06:45 GMT
dadofsam.
Total agreement.
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Post by garyhackett on Feb 13, 2008 22:41:02 GMT
I have been saying for a while that Cort is not worth the 1.2 million we paid for him, he is great in the air but is very average on the deck and has no leadership skills or presence about him
Zakuani is a better centre half, granted he is no right back but i would prefer Zak in the middle to Cort.
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Post by miffmister on Feb 13, 2008 23:03:50 GMT
Balls cort and shawcross are an excellent defensive pairing with goals at the other end. What more do you want CJ. Get a grip and get behind the team GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNN STOKE!!!
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Post by nonameface on Feb 13, 2008 23:07:28 GMT
The original post title is too bold a title to hold any water. To state that Cort can't defend is going too far. We are all entitled to our opinions and I firmly believe that Cort is the best defender of our lot. The fact that he doesn't tackle much doesn't concern me much, he gets in lots of blocks, headers, interceptions and generally breaks down the oppositions play. I also think that its a good thing that he never gets booked, it means hes more likely to be available for every game giving us more chance to build consistency. He has good pace, often covering for Shawcross's lack of pace.
The biggest problems with our defence does lie in that fact that as a whole they don't talk enough, there isn't the big leader that we have had before like Higgy, Doobs, Gerry. My understanding was that Griffin would correct this but so far I haven't seen any improvements. Infact I would say that he isn't as good defensively as Wilkinson often giving the opposition alot of space, although he offers more going forward.
Finally I think that Pugh is good enough at left back at this level, when we get promoted then this is an area we should look to improve straight away. I think we could do alot worse than sign Derbys McEveley?
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Post by ceejays on Feb 14, 2008 7:49:32 GMT
I welcome some of the 'support' from posters on this thread.Not a true supporter eh ? Well here goes. First match 1958 or thereabouts - nightmatch versus charlton i think. 1-1 score and Frankie Bowyer scored.The Stoke v Chelses 1972 programme is in a frame on my wall.As is the ticket Stoke v Brentford and Stoke v Rochdale(first match at Britannia) as is Stoke v WBA (last match at Victoria).Shall i go on ? The purpose of the thread and its bold title (perhaps OTT but deliberately so) was to highlight our defensive frailities which if they persist in the last 14 matches will deny us our dream.I highlighted this b4 the match in a thread call clean sheets.As i see it the back 4 has no leader.Higginbotham was that leader and organiser.It cant really be done from full back and Shawcross is a young lad.So the onus is on Cort.He cant defend is taken literally by some of you.Defence is communication,organisation and leadership as well as being able to tackle and head a ball.So i still maintain that Cort cant defend but as one poster rightly said thats why he is playing at this level and perhaps we expect too much.Just hope we can keep a few clean sheets - starting on Friday
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Post by nathan on Feb 14, 2008 8:02:58 GMT
Myself and MD have been banging on about the need for a leader at the back for a while now. Individually, they're all decent players at this level, collectively they're distinctly average.
I think Bunny has hit the nail on the head re; Cort.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2008 9:41:07 GMT
we do seem to have a problem at the back. I think the lack of a true 'leader' doesn't help, but then neither does the constant swapping of the back four (Griff at RB and or LB/Wilko/Dicko/Zak/Ryan/Cort/Pugh. Stability brings a better understanding. At the moment, we defend in a very un-Pulis-like way.
Simmo has to take his share of the blame, far too quiet, not commanding enough.
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Post by Do it for bringbackthevic on Feb 14, 2008 9:56:01 GMT
I suggest you watch the first goal again and look where Shawcross is when John hits the ball, he's actually behind him further up the field. H Having seen it again yes your right about ryan. the blame has to land at his feet as he doesn't even seem to put a challenge in. Just runs under the ball. But the argument was about Cort and theres no blame for cort.
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Post by thaydunnasay on Feb 14, 2008 10:13:38 GMT
It's a very sad trait on here that as soon as someone criticses anyone to any degree the happy clapping brigade rush out with the usual abuse.
A lot of you think this is the best it is going to be. Well sorry for pissing on your chips but some of us saw the Hudson/Greenhoff side which was a million miles beyond what we're watching now. All Ceejays is doing is raising a vaild point that Cort leaves a little bit to be desired IMO but looks to be a decent investment for £1m+.
So Boys and Girls, although we're 3rd and counting and even this sceptical onlooker is beginning to think we could go up (even allowing for the fact that this is Stoke who have a habit of letting us down) but just because we are where we are there's still things that can be improved.
Some of you ought to leave the Smarties alone before coming on here.
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Post by nonameface on Feb 14, 2008 10:53:30 GMT
Ceejay, I agree with what you say that defending is about; communication, organisation and leadership as well as the ability to tackle and head a ball, but why just because Shawcross is a young lad should the onus be on Cort to be that leader? Don't get me wrong, it's good that we are looking at our weaknesses and thinking of how we can address them, but I don't think blaming just Cort for our lack of leadership is the right thing to do.
As people have said before, Danny H is just the type of player we need right now; but we sold him and in return we have got Leon Cort, Ryan Shawcross, Danny Pugh. I think thats a fair deal!
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Post by ceejays on Feb 14, 2008 11:21:14 GMT
of course the last match at the victoria ground was against wolves
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Post by Dingdangdoo on Feb 14, 2008 11:21:34 GMT
I don't deny we lack a leader (although Tuesday might not be the right benchmark as it was an "unusual" night and anyone would have struggled to calm it down) but in my opinion Cort is a steady defender. I saw a couple of meaty tackles on Tuesday and generally he seems sound to me.
I think a midfield "General" would help the whole team, but not sure who that would be with the current squad. Possibly Whelan but not seen enough of him yet to have a view. No one in the back four has the right credentials for me (jury out in Griff with respect) and no other player really stands out mas a natural leader with all the right attributes - balanced aggression/man leader/calming influence/motivator etc.
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