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Post by ted1965 on Jan 4, 2009 7:19:47 GMT
I was hoping a good nights sleep and mental sand blasting would make me feel different about what happened yesterday, well it hasn’t in any way shape or form.
Its fine to announce this is a good thing and now we can concentrate on the only thing that matters survival, well it’s the only thing that matters now because we have nothing else to play for. It amazes me how people trot out this glib line to excuse one of the most inept displays in recent history and boy there have been a few to compete with. It’s good showing support for the manager and players when they have suffered a humiliation like that but it’s like sitting on death row and ignoring that your going to die and pretending you’re just on holiday in a very small room. It maybe the way to get through each day but it’s hardly going to change the outcome.
If this was an isolated case then you could say a bad performance and we will bounce right back, though it’s simply the lowest point yet in a very depressing slump. It’s not so long ago we were sitting in mid table and in the quarter finals of the league cup, everyone was on a high and with very winnable games to come things were looking rosy. Though you always wondered how a few setbacks either due to injuries, suspensions or loss of form would effect the side, well yesterday we saw the culmination of all three and it wasn’t a pleasant sight. The football of late has been declining, yes there have been a few bright spots amongst the dross but they have been exceptions to the rule and if things don’t change fast we will indeed be relegated back to the Championship, yes that was always more than a possibility but if you commit suicide rather than get murdered in doing so it makes the experience far less palatable.
We were completely outplayed yesterday by Hartlepool, who not only managed to make us like look a league two side but a bad one at that. This is a side who’s last home game before today saw them beaten 4-1 by Crewe, who are bottom of league one. I know all about the cup and how sides raise their level of performance when meeting the side from the Premiership, well the worrying part for me it didn’t surprise me that we were beaten today or that we played so badly. That for me is the scariest part about it, that I actually had a gut feeling it may happen in exactly the manner it did. I was reading in the racing post Tony Cascarino’s column where he was picking us to win, quoting him, Stoke are a side of lower league players who are showing they can do it in the Premiership. Their direct style wont be effected by conditions and basically he was saying we play like a league one side therefore shouldn’t be inconvenienced by them. Well the fact that he was wrong is neither here nor there the implications are very worrying.
I think we all except the limitations of the squad, though yesterday it showed that unless we have certain players available we’re beyond average. I have heard the phrases well Tony is doing a wonderful job with a limited side, excuse me who put together this limited side, who brought these limited players to this club and for not inconsiderable fees in some cases. It’s almost like some people forget who is in charge of putting together the side, who is in charge of team tactics and selections when we lose. It’s amazing Teflon Tony for some is only responsible for the good things, when things go wrong it seems some mysterious character appears who’s suddenly to blame anyone but Tone. No, I am not calling for the managers head, that is pointless at this point and would also be an overreaction to a series of poor performances. I am calling for a little reality and perspective, the manager is responsible for the good, the bad and yesterday wasn’t ugly it was beyond even that. If he’s to be praised for getting us promoted and doing well at the beginning of this season, then he also has to take the flak when things aren’t so good and for some to suggest it’s somehow disloyal or shows no support for the club to question and criticise when things they don’t like happen is ostrich like behaviour at it’s finest.
Though with the transfer window now open it begs the question will we see more players coming to the club like those we already have. I see people saying leave it to Tone, he’s not daft he knows what we need. Well to them I say this, he has known what we have needed for three years now a left midfielder with pace, do any of you see such a player at this football club, if you do would you please inform the manager to actually play him. We have needed a natural goal scorer and a creative midfielder also, they are also sadly missing from our squad. My concern he will once more be looking at tall defensive minded midfielders, utility players who can fill in several positions yet not actually be good enough to play one specific position on a regular basis. We will sign another huge forward who simply doesn’t score goals and a couple of knee jerk reaction players simply to appease supporters for the real targets not being acquired. This is going to be make or break in so many ways if we purchase another expensive group of basketball players we can expect the worst.
If anyone needs reminding today we ended up with Vincent I used to play for Juventus Pericard up front, for me that says it all about the team building at the moment this is a man who scores less then a bold covered dwarf with bad breath. I am sure if you asked Tone he would say, Vincent is a lovely lad, he works his socks off and has loads of talent just needs a little confidence, well Tony he’s a useless lazy lump who maybe good to his mother but he should be shown the door immediately though you may need to actually guide him through it because he struggles with hitting barn doors not sure how he’ll manage with slightly smaller ones.
The manager has to stand tall and admit his mistakes and then correct them, if he can’t admit he’s made mistakes in the first place then I fear for the immediate future. It maybe that he simply is one of those managers who works better within a very tight budget and can get a lot out of ordinary players up to a certain level. We have seen it many times, a manager who is known for working well on a right budget suddenly had immense riches to spend well in comparison to what he usually had and simply can’t get himself out of the mindset of the type of player he’s looking for. In the next 28 days we need some pace, some creativity and a couple of people who actually know where the goal is located. If we fail to acquire any of those we are not only in trouble and most likely to be relegated I think the managers position will be under severe threat because it is his side and he supposedly knows what we need.
The manager received all the accolades and deservedly so for getting us promoted, he deserved a full season to build his vision of a Premiership squad and while we have performed with great credit for the first half of the season the cracks are not only showing now the water is starting to seep in at a rather more alarming rate than anyone would like and it’s now up to the manager to spend the money at his disposal and show everyone that he really does know what we need and that this time he’s going to actually get those type of players. I hope and pray he is because yesterday we saw that without certain real players of quality calling us limited would be a kindness.
It’s over to you Mr. Pulis hopefully you have some real gems up your sleeve because we are going to need them and more importantly we need a change of direction on the field because we’ve been found out and now is the time to show everyone we’re more than the sum of our parts.
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Post by madeinstoke on Jan 4, 2009 7:25:10 GMT
morning Ted.
cracking post as usual.
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Post by Northy on Jan 4, 2009 8:06:52 GMT
Great post, bare facts and truth, can't argue with any of that really
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Post by milfman1 on Jan 4, 2009 8:18:02 GMT
what worries me the most is if tony does actually buy anyone half decent will he force them into playing his way and therefore loosing the attributes that made them a good player in the first place ie. Kitson. Can see us buying a couple of decent players but the system wont change one little bit and the terrible form of late will continue. Only one man can change the tactics and as we all know he has been known to be stubborn in the past!!!
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Post by wrighter on Jan 4, 2009 8:27:49 GMT
i felt very optimistic when Gerry Francis started helping out  |
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Post by Paddypotter on Jan 4, 2009 8:29:43 GMT
Both Ted and milfman, you are spot on, and whats more I think the players we have are feeling the same. The fact is, that rather than adapt to circumstances and personal available TP just changed a couple of faces but still employed his hoofball tactic, hence he required a forward over 6' tall to lump it to, enter Perican't. How do we trust a Manager that thinks Pericard is a footballer to buy good players? Even if he did find someone he would have to lie to them to get them to sign, as indeed he did with Kitson.
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Post by mrblobbysdad on Jan 4, 2009 8:49:51 GMT
Very frustrating result yesterday. I was just wondering how much yesterdays result was a reflection of the madness that was the WestHam away game last week and how much the team spirit and togetherness had been affected. Another setback / humiliation that on a similar scale of yesteday and we could be in real trouble so I pray we bounce back with some useful results immeadiately. This is a good post and Ted is bang on about the cracks are now starting to show through in a very serious way. Its going to be make or break this transfer window and we if we do well and get in the right players we might just have a chance of staying up. The fact we were knocked out of the cup at this stage might just give us a slight bit of help, in avoiding key injuries and suspensions, so actually im not too depressed about the overall result as it stands on its own. Yes, I'll get a slight ribbing off a few people about it - thankfully Man City also produced a poo display yesterday and I deflect some flack their way!  But Ted is right about the bigger picture and that is quite concerning and every Stokie should be rightly asking whats going on at the club right now. I fully expect Pulis will end up with 2 or 3 players at the end of the transfer window. I reckong we might get one of these in the last week of January and the others will sign in the last few hours of the window. If we get a couple of decent results against some of the better teams we are playing in the next month, we might even convince a few decent players (better than Pericant and 'works ard' Cresswell) to come on board. Id be happy if decent players come in on loans instead of us purchasing them. However I fully expect the players we buy to be asked to fit into Tony Pulis's tried and tested systems that dont seem to change. If we get lucky and we get a couple of 'wonder players' in the door that can do the job that Pulis expects Ricky Fuller to pull off week after week, we might just be ok. Either way, in my opinion (rightly of wrongly) Pulis deserves to see out the season, using the players he wants, in the systems he wants. If we finish the season going down it'll be gutting, but I just pray we start to give a better account of ourselves than we've seen of late. Whatever happens I'll be backing the boys that pull on the shirt all the way and while we are having a rough time of it right now, ive seen many similar situations get turned around and if anyone can keep us up in this league, Pulis and Stoke can do it. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jan 4, 2009 9:08:42 GMT
In the cold light of day, perhaps the saddest thing of all is that Pulis opted to play Delap upfront instead of employing a genuine 4-5-1 formation.
Pulis has one approach and he will shoehorn anyone and everyone to ensure that our team lines up the same way on any given day against any given opposition.
It is laughable really were it no so serious!
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Post by pez75 on Jan 4, 2009 9:18:15 GMT
Great post and I agree with all of it with the exception of the "Pulis got us here, so he deserves a full season in the Prem" line.
Yes, Pulis won us promotion, but lets not forget it was through the back door of a shit league that no-one seemed to want to win. It was not a season of triumphant promotion glory I am afraid - I aint complaining as it was the only realistic way we were only ever going to reach the promised land, and for once, lady luck was smiling on Stoke.
Tho point is, I dont Stoke as a yo-yoing Prem to Champ side like Wolves or West Brom. I think if we go down, then we are down for good, and may even end up like Charlton - a complacent side that everyone is up for playing becasue they are the ex-prem boys. We have to treat this as our one and only chance of Prem stability, the chances are we may never get this chance again. So if that means getting rid of our inept (in my opinion) manager, then fuck sentimentality - bye bye Tone.
I know it wont happen, as Coatesy loves his Tone, but for what it is worth, I want to see Stoke going hell for leather to try and stay in this league - that means away from home as well Tony you plank.
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Post by knype on Jan 4, 2009 9:28:24 GMT
Great post Ted, IMO there is 1 person that is accountable for the result yesterday and that person it Tony Pulis!
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Post by s8to on Jan 4, 2009 9:37:48 GMT
We shall see what the next week / month brings, spot on observation about admitting misakes tho, quite frankly why Pericard is still with us begs belief
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Post by kidcrewbob on Jan 4, 2009 10:13:13 GMT
Great post and I agree with all of it with the exception of the "Pulis got us here, so he deserves a full season in the Prem" line. Yes, Pulis won us promotion, but lets not forget it was through the back door of a shit league that no-one seemed to want to win. It was not a season of triumphant promotion glory I am afraid - I aint complaining as it was the only realistic way we were only ever going to reach the promised land, and for once, lady luck was smiling on Stoke. Tho point is, I dont Stoke as a yo-yoing Prem to Champ side like Wolves or West Brom. I think if we go down, then we are down for good, and may even end up like Charlton - a complacent side that everyone is up for playing becasue they are the ex-prem boys. We have to treat this as our one and only chance of Prem stability, the chances are we may never get this chance again. So if that means getting rid of our inept (in my opinion) manager, then fuck sentimentality - bye bye Tone. I know it wont happen, as Coatesy loves his Tone, but for what it is worth, I want to see Stoke going hell for leather to try and stay in this league - that means away from home as well Tony you plank. This is bang on the money Pez. Although my heart says we owe Pullis a season, my head says that this may be our only chance to establish ourselves and therefore Coates may need to put on his hard-headed business-man hat that has made him what he is - ie very successful. I have to say that IMHO, we are not even performing as well (from a quality and attitude perspctive) as we were last season, and given the form of teams like Reading, Wolves, Brum & even Preston last night, I reckon we would only be mid-table Championship. My biggest fear is along the lines you have stated - that we make some panic expensive last minute buys, maybe with a couple of journey-men that have seen better days coming in and end up plumetting through the Prem trap door for a long "outage" as per Bradford, Barnsley, Coventry & Southampton before us. Whilst I agree that we can get over the result yesterday to some degree, it makes us that little bit less attractive to a potential recruit in the transfer window. It will be an interesting 4-6 weeks indeed. |
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Post by Beardy200 on Jan 4, 2009 10:24:50 GMT
I agree with most of that Ted except i would stick up for Tone with the "you bought them so it's all your fault" opinion. Yes he did buy them but he didn't injure Kitson, Lawrence, Sidibe, Diao & Griffin and he didn't slap his captain in the face. Anyone who doesn't expect our results to suffer with key players like those missing is a little hopeful to say the least.
Yes we could have bought another striker or two but if we then had no injuries in that area we'd have even more players bought sat on the bench and where would that leave our budget?
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 4, 2009 10:51:10 GMT
Great post once again, Ted. It's a good job a few of us have the stamina to read it. I do. Always. This one, as per usual, is pretty sound common sense. I'm thinking of keeping a record of your posts and then publishing them. They should sit well alongside War and Peace.  Keep up the good work.  OS. |
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Post by padders01 on Jan 4, 2009 10:57:17 GMT
Ted,
Great stuff as always. I'm sure sure the sacking of Pulis would benefit the club in anyway. There is certainly nobody out there that I want in at the moment.
The frightening thing for me is, no Fuller for two league games and no Sidbie for probably the rest of January (needs time to get back fit). We haven't won a game since Mama got injured!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 10:59:42 GMT
I agree with most of that Ted except i would stick up for Tone with the "you bought them so it's all your fault" opinion. Yes he did buy them but he didn't injure Kitson, Lawrence, Sidibe, Diao & Griffin and he didn't slap his captain in the face. Anyone who doesn't expect our results to suffer with key players like those missing is a little hopeful to say the least. Yes we could have bought another striker or two but if we then had no injuries in that area we'd have even more players bought sat on the bench and where would that leave our budget? He did actually play both Griffin and Diao when the were carrying injuries and also the same with Rory and I think Creswell he admitted at some point was carrying a knock but doing it for the team? That is all well an good that the players are there for the cause but as the manager he has to see what is right for the team and if these players are not 100% fit dunna play them as it could cost us more in the long run. So he has to have some part of the blame in that. |
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Post by leicspotter on Jan 4, 2009 11:02:02 GMT
The biggest disappointment for me was that several players who have, apparently, been pushing for a first team place (and touted on here to start games) just didn't show up. Soares, Tonge and Sonko were all pretty poor...I know Pulis signed them, but heh, this was a great chance for them to show what they could do...and they all wasted it big time. In all honesty only Simmo and Ryan earned their wages yesterday  |
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Post by johnnysoul60 on Jan 4, 2009 11:06:02 GMT
Bang on Ted, every word, I'm still shaking with anger this morning after watching that apology for a performance.
It was a disgrace and no excuse exists for how they all played.
Pulis needs to sit down with coates this week and go out and get a couple of players who are genuine quality even if we do pay over the odds.
Certainly no more of the likes of Soares Tonge Davies and Sonko who are worse than what we had in the squad already based on what they have shown so far.
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Post by Beardy200 on Jan 4, 2009 11:12:14 GMT
I agree with most of that Ted except i would stick up for Tone with the "you bought them so it's all your fault" opinion. Yes he did buy them but he didn't injure Kitson, Lawrence, Sidibe, Diao & Griffin and he didn't slap his captain in the face. Anyone who doesn't expect our results to suffer with key players like those missing is a little hopeful to say the least. Yes we could have bought another striker or two but if we then had no injuries in that area we'd have even more players bought sat on the bench and where would that leave our budget? He did actually play both Griffin and Diao when the were carrying injuries and also the same with Rory and I think Creswell he admitted at some point was carrying a knock but doing it for the team? That is all well an good that the players are there for the cause but as the manager he has to see what is right for the team and if these players are not 100% fit dunna play them as it could cost us more in the long run. So he has to have some part of the blame in that. Yeah fair enough but personally i wouldn't say Diao & Griffin are anywhere near as important to us as Fuller, Sidibe, Kitson and Lawrence. Our 3 main strikers and our most creative midfielder are big losses. Griff & Diao are OK but not vital in my eyes. Plus remember it was Griff who wanted to carry on playing and as the captain you would expect Pulis to take his word for it. |
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Post by ted1965 on Jan 4, 2009 11:13:33 GMT
That is a very valid point the players yesterday had a chance to show the manager, supporters and those who were sitting out the game that there was real competition for places, all they did was make sure that certain players will be in the side irrespective of form or fitness because from what we saw from the majority yesterday they would struggle at league one level let alone the Premiership, thank God there is a transfer window, imagine if we had to play most of that side for another 4 months. It really was an eye opener for sure, if anyone would have been shown that game and weren’t told which leagues the sides came from I defy one person to choose which was the Premiership side and which was nearer the bottom of league one.
Old Stokie mate, maybe I shall change my name to Tolstoy just for you, though ;D ;D not sure about Leo though just doesn’t sound like a Stoke supporter more like a Chelsea supporter from Surrey who only discovered football when he came across sky sports one afternoon and gives him an interest away from Polo.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2009 11:15:15 GMT
He did actually play both Griffin and Diao when the were carrying injuries and also the same with Rory and I think Creswell he admitted at some point was carrying a knock but doing it for the team? That is all well an good that the players are there for the cause but as the manager he has to see what is right for the team and if these players are not 100% fit dunna play them as it could cost us more in the long run. So he has to have some part of the blame in that. Yeah fair enough but personally i wouldn't say Diao & Griffin are anywhere near as important to us as Fuller, Sidibe, Kitson and Lawrence. Our 3 main strikers and our most creative midfielder are big losses. Griff & Diao are OK but not vital in my eyes. Plus remember it was Griff who wanted to carry on playing and as the captain you would expect Pulis to take his word for it. Granted that is true he would take his word for it but I hope that is a lesson learned for the future if a player is fucked get him off ASAP. |
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Post by sunshiner on Jan 4, 2009 11:23:19 GMT
I read the board quite often and your posts are always well considered and thought out Ted, it mkaes a refreshing change from some of the inane babble that I read.
As an outsider it is hard for me to comment on Stoke other than having seen them a couple of times, but you look like a team which is a bit more than we do.
As I said at the beginning of the season (a strange season so far) getting players to perform in the prem can be done, but if you are asking them to perform above their level it can't be done over a season. Especially if you lose key players, the difference is the number of mistakes the more that creep in, the more the confidence goes.
Everybody points to Bolton on well they did it etc, but people also forget that within the team Fat Sam bought players like Jay Jay, Anelka, Nolan etc and worked the system to best suit their opponents and the team. Although those players weren't great in number their influence was and that made the difference between sucess and failure. It is something Tango has picked up with Geovanni(sp) and Mendy but also a bit deserved luck. Its OK going on about players that you need in a relegation scrap, but its a self fulfilling prophecy because those players will normally always be in a relegation scrap.
The real question, is TP willing to gamble on those types of players or more of the same and if he does, will he change the team around a bit to suit them. Those types of players that will come to clubs like ours also tend to come with some kind of baggage otherwise they would be playing for big clubs, such as injury worries, debatable attitude, team / manager issues or just plain old money / wages. £25 Million in reality doesn't get you a lot, but he has been a manager a long time so maybe you have a right to expect more from him, but the reality is if you survive this season to move up just a little will need similar investment again and probably tweaking the system.
On our side if we survive (and thats a big if) it will be because of those type of players Malbranque, Richardson, Cisse etc and not the in your face plodders but we are still short in defence and a midfielder.
I haven't a clue about TP but I have watched more than my fair share of relegations so I know how it feels and what it looks like, as I said above I haven't seen taht much of you to judge but if you don't score that many and don't create that much the odds are stacked against you to start with, because sure as eggs are eggs you will concede goals in most games in the Prem as the majority of teams do.
Good luck, but obviously not at our expense
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Post by Beardy200 on Jan 4, 2009 11:29:23 GMT
I read the board quite often and your posts are always well considered and thought out Ted, it mkaes a refreshing change from some of the inane babble that I read. As an outsider it is hard for me to comment on Stoke other than having seen them a couple of times, but you look like a team which is a bit more than we do. As I said at the beginning of the season (a strange season so far) getting players to perform in the prem can be done, but if you are asking them to perform above their level it can't be done over a season. Especially if you lose key players, the difference is the number of mistakes the more that creep in, the more the confidence goes. Everybody points to Bolton on well they did it etc, but people also forget that within the team Fat Sam bought players like Jay Jay, Anelka, Nolan etc and worked the system to best suit their opponents and the team. Although those players weren't great in number their influence was and that made the difference between sucess and failure. It is something Tango has picked up with Geovanni(sp) and Mendy but also a bit deserved luck. Its OK going on about players that you need in a relegation scrap, but its a self fulfilling prophecy because those players will normally always be in a relegation scrap. The real question, is TP willing to gamble on those types of players or more of the same and if he does, will he change the team around a bit to suit them. Those types of players that will come to clubs like ours also tend to come with some kind of baggage otherwise they would be playing for big clubs, such as injury worries, debatable attitude, team / manager issues or just plain old money / wages. £25 Million in reality doesn't get you a lot, but he has been a manager a long time so maybe you have a right to expect more from him, but the reality is if you survive this season to move up just a little will need similar investment again and probably tweaking the system. On our side if we survive (and thats a big if) it will be because of those type of players Malbranque, Richardson, Cisse etc and not the in your face plodders but we are still short in defence and a midfielder. I haven't a clue about TP but I have watched more than my fair share of relegations so I know how it feels and what it looks like, as I said above I haven't seen taht much of you to judge but if you don't score that many and don't create that much the odds are stacked against you to start with, because sure as eggs are eggs you will concede goals in most games in the Prem as the majority of teams do. Good luck, but obviously not at our expense Good post fella and you're spot on. Can we have Richardson and Malbranque please and i'm sure we'll be fine? |
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Post by Done it for valiant21 on Jan 4, 2009 12:03:37 GMT
Couldn't have put it better myself. Huge changes need to be made both in the way you play as well as players. Pulis will never change though unfortunately for you lot. Enjoy your relegation x
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Post by evans1863 on Jan 4, 2009 12:08:06 GMT
Yeah and you xxxxxxxxxxxxx |
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Post by andyk on Jan 4, 2009 13:16:34 GMT
Cheers. And you enjoy continuing to lose to teams like Accrington Stanley, Macclesfield Town and Dagenham & Redbridge, and being below Burton Albion next season. Oh, and did you enjoy your trip yesterday? |
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Post by hanibal7 on Jan 4, 2009 13:30:10 GMT
TED1965.
Somethings dont change mate.your post looks very similar to the ones you did when we were going thru a bad time in the championship.i know it,you know it,and about 15,000 stokies know it.
WE LACK PACE,SKILL,QUALITY,DEFENSIVE ABILITY,AND SCORING POTENTIAL.
I can think of only one thing what will happen unless there is a few quality players who can add pace and passing abilities and a couple of forwards who can grab the odd goal we will be relegated.Failing that tp may do a miracle and bring some more giraffes on board and unearth a player who can throw a ball longer than rory and not knacker his shoulder up doing it.
i pray for a miracle but my heart remembers many relegation battles with a poor side,and we failed every time.
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But Ted is right about the bigger picture and that is quite concerning and every Stokie should be rightly asking whats going on at the club right now.
