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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 13:37:05 GMT
i don't feel too down about saturday but agree with rabbigan's post
away from home this season our tactics are chaotic!
we seem to have everyone sat in our own area
at times, it's like watching a boxer being pummelled on the ropes, but there's no referee to stop it, it is gruesome and painful
we are coming under relentless pressure, usually averaging about
30% possession away from home
i am obviously please with what has happened in the home matches,
but really don't think Pulis has put any thought into tactics away from home
he needs to sort this out asap
away games are a write off at the moment, i'm considering not bothering spending the cash in future
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Post by joeymoose on Nov 17, 2008 13:47:14 GMT
Agree with each and every word, Rabbigan. I have walked away from many Stoke games this season with a great feeling of pride. I have felt the same pride when seeing and hearing the positive things about us in the media. But as I slunk away from Old Trafford on Saturday I felt only shame. It was a stunning performance by the Stoke fans, a poor performance by the team and a total nightmare from the manager.
I admire the way that some posters on this thread are jumping to the club's defence against Rabbigan's comments. Your loyalty does you credit. But I believe that we have to question our away tactics. I have been to every game and think we are very fortunate to get even 2 points on our travels.
Pulis is giving other teams too much respect. Even at home against Chelsea when we were 1-0 down and really getting at them after Fuller came on he took off Lawrence, who had just started to look dangerous. On came Cresswell and the pressure just fizzled out.
I don't slam Rabbigan for seeing it the way he does. Like me he is desperate for Prem survival and can see we are getting the away part of the plan totally wrong. I hate myself for admitting it but Hull have got the attack/defend balance about right.
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Post by Do it inthe Prem for 3rdminute on Nov 17, 2008 14:09:05 GMT
I don't know how Pulis managed to give an interview after the game because all that I heard through the match was Pulis shouting at all of the players to get tighter and get forward. There players themselves decided to give their own 5 yards to Utd. Also he was about to bring Tonge on at the end and not Wilko but just as Tonge was about to come on Griffin pulled up and had to come off. It might have livened up the last twenty minutes just a little bit.
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Post by Northy on Nov 17, 2008 14:54:28 GMT
I think your thread title is utter rubbish really, there is no 'shame' in losing to the champions of europe away from home, we aren't in the same league as them, thats a sad reality, even with a different, attacking approach we still wouldn't have won the game, this defeat boils down to one thing, one side being far superior to us. The next two games are the important games, i could understand criticism if we lost those games, their the kind of games which give us a big insentive into our chances, you can't have honestly expected us to take the game to top 4 teams away and get results, the gulf in class is huge, and most of these games are damage limitation away from home. I firmly believe we will get those few wins on the road, we still have several places i believe we can go and get points from, newcastle being a fine example. I have to disagree Luke, Hull only lost by the odd goal in 7 and it took a Rob Styles inspired performance for Man Utd to beat Bolton, speculate to accumulate is the motto |
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Post by Northy on Nov 17, 2008 14:54:34 GMT
I think your thread title is utter rubbish really, there is no 'shame' in losing to the champions of europe away from home, we aren't in the same league as them, thats a sad reality, even with a different, attacking approach we still wouldn't have won the game, this defeat boils down to one thing, one side being far superior to us. The next two games are the important games, i could understand criticism if we lost those games, their the kind of games which give us a big insentive into our chances, you can't have honestly expected us to take the game to top 4 teams away and get results, the gulf in class is huge, and most of these games are damage limitation away from home. I firmly believe we will get those few wins on the road, we still have several places i believe we can go and get points from, newcastle being a fine example. I have to disagree Luke, Hull only lost by the odd goal in 7 and it took a Rob Styles inspired performance for Man Utd to beat Bolton, speculate to accumulate is the motto |
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Post by fromafar07 on Nov 17, 2008 14:56:53 GMT
no shame in losing, especially to the likes of Man U at their place.
However, playing like they did and mismanaged like they were is pretty bad. Shameful though ? a bit harsh
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Post by winger on Nov 17, 2008 15:05:08 GMT
I could at least understand why he bought Wilko on: to twat Ronaldo. Yet another failed Pulis tactic.
Excellent leading post rabbigan, what a surprise to see you shouted down by the usual suspects. You should realise by now that it's a crime to expect Stoke to play football; remember and be grateful: we have scudded the points in the past and we will scud them again in the future.
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Post by smirny72 on Nov 17, 2008 15:32:07 GMT
I wouldnt say shame but each to their own. We made some poor mistakes and paid the price. If we learn from it and move on watch out West brom.
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Post by rabbigan on Nov 17, 2008 15:33:53 GMT
Just reading the rest of the board. My comments which started this thread are widely echoed in various other threads
NO one understands Cresswell being brought on and not Whelan or Tongue.
NO one understands why Tom Soares does not even get on the bench.
NO one thinks the absolutely negative way we play in fixtures like last Saturday is the way forward.
The response from us as fans to get behind the team has been immense and a credit to every Stokie and it was not my intention to knock our team but I am more than every convinced having read the widespread comments of others that there is a groundswell of opinion questioning our tactics and application
away from the Brit.
That is right and fair for football fans to do and I get disappointed that some individuals do not understand that raising these issues is reasonable but is seen as some sort of attack on the team.
Losing to the Mancs was not my concern at all only the manner of it and it should concern anyone who thinks about their footabll.
However if you look at the team they had to put out then a committed and vigourous visiting team were in with a chance.
A lot of major players were missing.
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Post by trebor63 on Nov 17, 2008 17:05:57 GMT
58 years and that was a new low!!!!!!
You can't have done too many matches in them 58 years. I've been going for 38 years and I've seem literally hundreds of worse performances than that.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2008 17:08:50 GMT
I don't give a shit we lost on Saturday truth be told. It was always going to happen. West Brom is the big game and I'l; be right royally pissed off off if we don't win this one.
What annoyed me about Saturday was how badly defended for the goals and Tp's insistance on playing Cresswell. Now for the big game on Saturday! Should be a cracker!
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Post by jarhead on Nov 17, 2008 17:22:15 GMT
Great post this is rabbigan and because you tell the true and the reality some clowns on here only come back with 'we were playing the champions of europe blah blah... are fuckin wigan the champions of europe ffs?
We went into saturdays game and all of them infact away of just 'HOPING' we got a draw and all said and done we would lose it maybe by the odd goal which Pulis would rave about.But what is the point in going away seriously when tactics are desperate at best?
This Cresswell rimming by Pulis worrys me because we have Tonge,Whelan,Soares sitting on the bench watching somebody who is so far out of his depth its embarrassing and i bet those three on the bench must be so so frustrated!
CHANGE PULIS AWAY
NO CRESSWELL
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Post by Akinbadbuy on Nov 17, 2008 18:52:41 GMT
No one can knock what we have achieved and yes we have had some great results this season. Full credit to TP for that.
My only gripe is that I honestly feel Pulis is his own worst enemy at times. We went to Man U expecting to get beat and yes we got royally hammered, but we never gave ourselves a chance of getting anything from the game. How many times have you heard the pundits on MOTD say "If you give Man U time on the ball they will murder you". That is exactly what we did.
By bringing Cresswell on instead of Tongue or Whelan made it crystal clear we had absolutely no intent of trying to attack.
What worries me most though is Man U aside our away performances have been poor overall. This 8-1-1 formation that we play away does not work and is so easy for the opposition to suss out. We simply cannot approach every away game trying to scrape a 0-0 and we need to change our thinking. I understand that for the bigger clubs we will setup defensively and im fine with that but we approached the Wigan game exactly the same, scraped a point and probably should have lost. Why not go for 3 points?? Wigan have been pretty poor the last few weeks and defensively (Titus Bramble) they are very shakey. Why do we not try to exploit this at all?? Ricardo Fuller v Titus Bramble?? I know who my money's on!!! But we simply dont give ourselves a chance of winning the game. What annoys people is that we have seen what we can do at home and how well we can play. Away we look like a totally different side, nerveous, no heart, no leader.
Yes our home form is crucial but come the end of the season we are going to have to have one hell of a home record to stay up. Ultimately it is these away performances that we will look back on, The Wigan's, the boro's, the bolton's and ask why did we not try to get anything from these games? Why did we hold the white flag up and surrender any chance of 3 points before we have even kicked a ball?
I honestly beleive we can stay up if we change our philosophy for away matches. If we don't then I fear the worst......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 18:54:27 GMT
Not to sound too much like Pulis here but Wigan would similarly see Stoke at home as a nailed-on valuable three points and the kind of game they should be winning.
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Post by beagriestache on Nov 17, 2008 19:04:41 GMT
Rabbigan's original post is well written and well made.
However, it's just possible that Pulis had an off day, many of the players under-performed, Man U's players worked well together and we got thrashed at the current European champions place.
Not really worth all the brow-beating we've seen so far is it?
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Post by Akinbadbuy on Nov 17, 2008 19:07:14 GMT
robvandeurzen83
I see your point, but in that case then when do we try and win an away game? When will there ever be a right time to go for 3 points away from the Brit?
It's worked for Hull so why not us?
With the current philosophy we may as well put the reserves out for away games and save the first team for home matches so they are fresh.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2008 19:09:17 GMT
Not to sound too much like Pulis here but Wigan would similarly see Stoke at home as a nailed-on valuable three points and the kind of game they should be winning. But we should at least try and get more than a point from games like this. Like I said we need a happy medium where we defend well but still attack. Parking the bus in front of the goal isn't going to cut it with most fans away to Wigan. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 19:11:15 GMT
I take your points but we were matching them until we lost Mama to injury. That's the real issue, the lack of a plan B. The Man City game, for all the poverty of our play at times, shows we are capable of creating chances away from home.
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jim76
Spectator
Posts: 33
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Post by jim76 on Nov 17, 2008 19:17:56 GMT
I think we should expect a better result on Boxing Day. There is a certain amout of pride to redeem for manager and players.
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Nov 17, 2008 19:27:48 GMT
If you didn't know by now how we were going to play on Saturday then you deserve to waste the money
We were one down at half time - and that only down to some dodgy keeping. United had hardly made a chance (one I think ) in open play. We had defended well until that fateful error for the second goal
And yes, if it stayed at one nil we were still in the game
We can't and won't change our away tactics until we bring in the players Pulis failed to sign up pre season. Like it or not we don't have the pace to play any other way until January
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2008 19:38:00 GMT
I take your points but we were matching them until we lost Mama to injury. That's the real issue, the lack of a plan B. The Man City game, for all the poverty of our play at times, shows we are capable of creating chances away from home. We actually had an outlet on in that game though in the form of Soares. Someone who will offer himself to get the ball and then go forward with it. With Seyi, Delap, Faye and Diao in the midfield no one offers this. The Man City game scared TP shitless imo and from that we've got creativity in midfield. Soares was used as the scapegoat and the rest is history. |
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Post by tony harrison on Nov 17, 2008 19:50:55 GMT
After 58 years watching Stoke play generally uninspired football Saturday was a new low point. Our team was prepared and sent to Old Trafford with losing as the only scenario. They were not sent to attempt to win and it is shameful. I assume that on this board most of the subscribers will at some time have played the game themseleves and if they played long enough will also know that if you play any game with sufficient commitment and effort even against teams who on paper are able to beat you then sometimes you can get a surprise result. Conversely if yopu approach games with your mind filled with inevitable loss as the scenario then invariably you lose and that is what happened to us on Saturday. Losing 5 nil is not the point. Losing 1 nil and playing the game with no intention to to try win is just as bad in my book. Nobody will convince me that the Pulis philosophy is good for our team in the long run. To play 4 midfielders Diao, Faye,Delap and Olofinjana who are identical type of players (midfield grafters) defies understanding when to stand any chance in such a match you must have one player who can pass , who can create, who can hit a good free kick, take a good corner, can take some pressure off the defence is essential. To then exacerbate the situation by replacing Olofinjana with Cresswell who brings nothing absoloutely nothing to the team is incredible and so stupid and addled in thinking it defies explanation. We had on the bench Whelan who should certainly have started who has all of the above attributes and in addtion he has played as wide midfielder for Wednesday and successfully. Having been forced to make a change this should have been the solution. Also we had Tonge who has played all of his career at Sheffield United as wide midfielder apart from about 6 months. He also has a quality pass in him and good delivery. He was bought as wide midfielder for £2 million because he was "better than what we had". Tom Soares was not on the bench and why not??In what department of the game is Cresswell a better player than Soares? We will not survive without getting a win or two away from home that is for sure. Good results away from home are massive confidence boosters and negativity in play breeds negativity throughout the team. For my group of 3 on Saturday I payed £150 for tickets plus travelling plus snacks not much change out of £250. For this I should at the least expect a performance from my team. Alternatively like the pricing structure grading for home fixtures we need one for away games so the ones where the manager has decided before the game we are setting out our stall to lose we should be told. The team does not need support if we are not trying to win. The postmatch interview with Nigel Johnsons was unreal. Apparently if they had not got the second just before half time we would have been in with a chance of winning. To have managed that we would have needed more than Delaps throws. We needed some bugger able to shoor from 80 yards out where we were parked perpetually. That interview also started the "bigging up of Derby". They were in the premiership last year (they were shite last year) They have some excellent players (name them please) I had given up hope of seeing Stoke in the Premiership again and for this I am grateful to Peter Coates and lesser extent Pulis but I dont want to survive at all costs and if waving the white flag before kick off is necessary then I prefer life in the Championship. AS for Kitson we have to have a passer like Whelan in the team and then you will see him score. In the system of bash it somewhere near Mama and see what happens or try and get a throw in he aint going to be the man. Get somebody passing and crossing he is a good finisher. I am not sure how you spend 5.5 million on a player and do not understand how he has to be played for best reuslts. What a brilliant post, it sums up my dismay at our tactics at times. A well thought out contribution, couldn't have put it better myself. As for another post, we played the same at Liverpool and I wasn't one of the people going over the top about the result. Yes we got a point which was very important but if Liverpool had played how they can and managed to find the net then the result may have been the same as it was on Saturday against Manure. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 20:09:00 GMT
If you didn't know by now how we were going to play on Saturday then you deserve to waste the money We were one down at half time - and that only down to some dodgy keeping. United had hardly made a chance (one I think ) in open play. We had defended well until that fateful error for the second goal And yes, if it stayed at one nil we were still in the game We can't and won't change our away tactics until we bring in the players Pulis failed to sign up pre season. Like it or not we don't have the pace to play any other way until January this approach cannot be called 'tactical' i work with some man u season ticket holders. one of them is a top bloke and i respect his opinion despite the fact he is a 'shit' fan. he said he had never seen a team come to old trafford and set out from the start of the game to take a battering. it was relentless, and he was mostly shocked at our 'tactic' of giving the ball away deliberately evry time we have it! he said it was worse than when ipswich (john wark, andy linghan et al) went there and infamously got beat 9-0. i am proud of our home performances, but frankly, embarrassed at the absolute roasting we are getting in EVERY away game we play. man utd stayed in first gear, bought on kids, and could have beaten us 10-0 on saturday. Pulis needs to have a long hard think and start playing soares & tonge away from home |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2008 20:09:39 GMT
If you want to talk about shameful performances then I can point you in the direction of 8-0 losses at home to Liverpool and more importantly Birmingham.
We were poor on Saturday, very poor at times but perspective is needed here.
Forget it and move on to the IMPORTANT games against WBA and Hull.
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Nov 17, 2008 20:21:00 GMT
Against the Wigans of this world then we should be more positive but against the likes of ManU we don't really have an option
Hopefully we will have in January
BTW - Hull have considerably more attacking options than us but it was a defender who got their second and third goals at OT
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Post by tony harrison on Nov 17, 2008 20:43:17 GMT
Perhaps it is because of the attacking options that the defender got a couple of goals.
Their defenders would be busy marking their forwards I suspect.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Nov 17, 2008 20:46:33 GMT
Off set pieces I think TWM did we have any corners agaisnt Man Yoo?
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Post by TheWiseMaster on Nov 17, 2008 20:58:54 GMT
As I recall,at 4-1 down Hull sent on their pacey defender Mendy? who got two goals out of nothing and totally on his own
Bayern
I too was disappointed with the lack of threat but any attacking options we might have had went out of the window at 3-0
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Post by serpico on Nov 17, 2008 21:18:57 GMT
I don't mind going to places like Wigan looking for a point, but what we did wasn't settle for a point, it was dicing with death, we diced with death against ManU and got murdered, had Wigan not been utterly shite, then they too would likely have murdered us.
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Post by Stafford-Stokie on Nov 17, 2008 21:19:12 GMT
I am quite pleased we had a shit game in a match we prob wouldn't get anything anyway. Hopefully it will give them a kick up the arse for the next few games that are very much 3 points up for grabs.
Heads up boys. The baggies are coming. ;D
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