Outsourcing torture.

[serpico]

What the hell has this country come to ?

Link fixed

[PotteringThrough]

Shit happens

[serpico]

So long as it's not happening to you it's ok i guess, just like the Germans used to say in the 1930's about the jews.

[Deleted]

Don't see the problem myself.

[serpico]

Even though this is the type of thing we are supposed to be fighting against ? ... it's a complete and utter slap in the face to the men and women who have given there lives in the name of all things just, i guess they did die in vain after all.

[Deleted]

Probably outsourced as part of a cost-down exercise.

[frasier37]

It comes to something when MI5&MI6 have to hide the fact.

Good on'em. Keep it up boys.

[serpico]

This latest poll makes me proud to be British.

[Deleted]

How do you know what kind of information is ascertained this way? For all we know we have thwarted potential terror attacks and saved numerous lives.

A necessary evil?

[serpico]

Torture is actually one of the very worst methods of getting information out of people, because they just tell you anything to make it stop, making the information useless anyway, also many of these people are suspects, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty ? i suppose that no longer applies in this brave new world we live in ?. I'm not sure we've got to US levels of torture yet though, where they now openly say that if the president deems it necessary they can crush a child's testicles

[Deleted]

All I’m saying is it’s not a straightforward, black and white issue IMO. The big grey area being, we don’t know if any intelligence gained through these means has thwarted terror attacks.

I know it’s not much of an argument (“What if”) but for all we know it has helped save lives in certain situations.

I’m sure they don’t just pick random people and torture them for the fun of it (that’s not saying they get it right all the time) but I’m sure they have to have a certain level of intelligence to target someone.

This subject is always going to split opinions though.

[serpico]

I'm against torture in all forms, i know shows like 24 have helped to glamorize the use of torture and now generations of people have been brainwashed think it's ok and that it's actually a legitimate form of interrogation which works, but in reality it doesn't work, and the US did actually just scoop up random people, and in some cases actually tortured them to death, and the orders came from the very top, i'm not being hyperbolic when i say the Bush administration are sick individuals, i mean it literally.

[Dallas Cowboy]

"just like the Germans used to say in the 1930's about the jews."

I never realized you grew up in Nazi Germany, serpico.

[serpico]

Jul 15, 2008 14:00:02 GMT Dallas Cowboy said:

"just like the Germans used to say in the 1930's about the jews."

I never realized you grew up in Nazi Germany, serpico.

It's called reading about history Dallas, ... you've been living in the land of the United States of Amnesia for to long , crack a decent history book

p.s

Before you pull me up Dallas, when i refer to the US i mean the US government, or the small cabal that is currently in the white house, not the entire country as a whole, before you throw the old "anti American" cannard at me again ;D

[JetBlack]

The war in Iraq was based on false information wasn't it? I expect that it stems from our illegal invasion. Then the leaders of the U.S. and our own country should be tried at the very least for manslaughter; in my opinion that is. Could you explain to me though how the security services can get information without resorting to this story of torture? You can't expect them (the prisoners) to wilfully reveal information. Yes I agree it's bad that people have been harmed in this way. But what is the alternative? Holding them for years doesn't seem to work, going by the Guantanamo Bay example. I'm not saying that I'm for torture, far from it. But what other choices are there? Perhaps truth inducing drugs? It's a hard one to argue, without sounding pro torture. Who knows perhaps the earlier poster may be correct; perhaps subsequent attacks have been stopped, with information revealed in this fashion.

[Dallas Cowboy]

If Obama gets elected as the next President, serpico, I shall read your posts with interest to see if that is indeed the case.

On the subject of history books, I am quite partial to them actually but I don't recall ever reading one that expressed the views of ordinary Germans, the man-in-the-street, during the Nazi Years. And given the horrendous acts carried out by the Nazis, I am not sure you would ever get a true answer from such individuals. And I guess the same is true for the Soviet Union, regarding the mass murders and use of slave labour that took place under Stalin in the 1930s.

[serpico]

Jul 15, 2008 14:44:16 GMT Dallas Cowboy said:

If Obama gets elected as the next President, serpico, I shall read your posts with interest to see if that is indeed the case.

On the subject of history books, I am quite partial to them actually but I don't recall ever reading one that expressed the views of ordinary Germans, the man-in-the-street, during the Nazi Years. And given the horrendous acts carried out by the Nazis, I am not sure you would ever get a true answer from such individuals. And I guess the same is true for the Soviet Union, regarding the mass murders and use of slave labour that took place under Stalin in the 1930s.

Theres not a dimes worth of difference between the democrats and republicans, i don't see a whole lot change happening under a Obama administration, he will implement the policies from the Clinton era, which was to bomb countries rather than invade and occupy, essentially the policies which caused 9/11 to happen. He's just announced his foreign policy team, it's littered with old Clinton era figures, the only candidate to run that would have changed Americas direction was Ron Paul, a republican from Texas. That said, Obama would be preferable to the mad man John McCain, he's the candidate Al Qeada would most like to see as president.

[wizzardofdribble]

I can't help but think..wouldn't it be nice to torture Dr Shipman, Ian Brady and the 'Ipswich Ripper'

Throughout every interview with the Police they refused to anwser any questions and sat with their backs towards those interviewing them

Wouldn't it be nice to start cutting Ian Bradys fingers off...the way that he and Myra Hyndley cut off the fingers of those little children...whilst taping it...the tape was played at their Court Trial...wouldn't it be nice to find out where the remaining bodies are buried...

I would torture this bastard myself without any remorse whatsoever...

Sometimes, you have to break a few eggs to make a decent omelette

[Tubes]

to play Devil's Advocate for a second, what if you've got in your possession a man who you know is involved in planting a bomb in the middle of a major city, and you know that the bomb is due to go off within the next 24 hours, and that civillian casualties could be in the hundreds or thousands.

Say this man is an extremist willing to die for his cause, and completely unwilling to offer up any information. At which point, if at all, does it become acceptable to torture this man to save those innocent lives?

[serpico]

Jul 15, 2008 17:11:28 GMT Tubes said:

to play Devil's Advocate for a second, what if you've got in your possession a man who you know is involved in planting a bomb in the middle of a major city, and you know that the bomb is due to go off within the next 24 hours, and that civillian casualties could be in the hundreds or thousands.

Say this man is an extremist willing to die for his cause, and completely unwilling to offer up any information. At which point, if at all, does it become acceptable to torture this man to save those innocent lives?

Completely hypothetical question, and pretty unlikely scenario, you need to stop watching that bullshit propaganda show 24.

But I think you answered your own question, if he's willing to die for his cause what amount of torture will get him to tell you what you want to know ? he'd just play for time and tell you anything.

[wizzardofdribble]

Not completely hypothetical serpico..because something similar happened in Gibralta..in the 1980's when 3 IRA men were shot dead by 'special-forces'...suspected of planting a bomb close to an Army Barracks

[Tubes]

never seen 24, been watching a lot of Spooks recently though

Not being a member of the security services, I don't know how likely / unlikely it is, but that doesn't mean it's an impossible situation, and you haven't really answered the question. I'm sure a lot of people are willing to die, but being put through immense physical and psychological pain is something different, and if there was any chance that torturing a man would lead DIRECTLY to hundreds or thousands of lives saved, would it not be the better of two evils? Or is the concept of the liberties and rights of the individual sacrosanct?

[wizzardofdribble]

Good point tubes

[Dallas Cowboy]

So basically, what you are saying, serpico, is that you don't like any US administration, Democrat or Republican, and everything the US government does is wrong. Well, I guess I can't fault you for being even-handed. I look forward to your posts condemning Obama and neo-libs. :-)

[serpico]

Jul 15, 2008 18:53:06 GMT Dallas Cowboy said:

So basically, what you are saying, serpico, is that you don't like any US administration, Democrat or Republican, and everything the US government does is wrong. Well, I guess I can't fault you for being even-handed. I look forward to your posts condemning Obama and neo-libs. :-)

It would be fair to say i don't like the democrats or republicans, both parties are mass murderers , but there are a couple of members of each party that i like, the democrat Dennis Kucinich and Republican Ron Paul, the rest are all the same.

The democrats were elected in 2006 to end the Iraq war, the American people voted them in specifically with that task, what happened ? they let Bush send MORE troops into Iraq, and gave him a blank cheque to fund the war, If obama is voted in as president I'll bet you the US still has troops in Iraq in 5 years time, as a general rule of thumb, you should always listen to what a candidate says when running for office and then expect them to do the exact opposite of what they promised when they get elected-

[serpico]

Ex FBI agent talks about your "ticking time bomb" scenario -

[serpico]

Army field manuel chapters 32-54 chapter 1

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

[Mr_DaftBurger]

So is Pakistan on our side now or not?

[serpico]

Jul 16, 2008 19:56:58 GMT Mr_DaftBurger said:

So is Pakistan on our side now or not?

The pakistan government is on our "side" , they have actually been a lot more cooperative in the "war on terror" than we could ever really expect them to be, since the Taliban was the perfect government for Pakistan in Afghanistan, which they helped create and then helped un-create, if you follow me ? .

But there are definately still some factions in Pakistan who seem to be against us, or against the occupation of Afghanistan at least, it quite complicated because it seems that "a; qeada" and other militants have now settled in the tribal regions of pakistan, so the war could possibly spread to Pakistan soon, or perhaps it already has ?.

[Mr_DaftBurger]

"There is not, nor is there going to be, an incursion of NATO troops into Pakistan. There is no planning for, no mandate for, an incursion of NATO troops into Pakistan," NATO spokesman James Appathurai told a news briefing in Brussels.

So they're already in there?

Western forces in Afghanistan are coming under increased pressure as the traditional summer fighting season gets into full swing ..............

What do they think it is the start of the grouse shooting season! ;D