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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jul 19, 2024 10:02:41 GMT
Are not as good as foreign Coaches/Managers?
There really isn't any English ones good enough to win a Euro or World Cup for England,where as a foreign one just might.
So why is it that the English coaches don't win the Premiership but Foriegn do?
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 19, 2024 10:09:46 GMT
Southgate came infinitely closer than Eriksson and Capello.
It’s fine saying Klopp, Pep etc would win something but I’ve a feeling the reality would be different.
International management is completely different. And the England job is pretty much unique in international football.
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Post by lordb on Jul 19, 2024 10:18:43 GMT
English coaches don't get the big jobs so they are not going to win the pl
that might be the right thin g from the clubs pov of course
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 19, 2024 10:39:49 GMT
Southgate came infinitely closer than Eriksson and Capello. It’s fine saying Klopp, Pep etc would win something but I’ve a feeling the reality would be different. International management is completely different. And the England job is pretty much unique in international football. I tend to agree. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2024 10:44:34 GMT
You need to go back a couple of stages.
The data is a few years out of date now but as of 2018 there were "2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588.
There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135."
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 19, 2024 10:48:30 GMT
You need to go back a couple of stages. The data is a few years out of date now but as of 2018 there were "2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588. There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135." Wow. I'd never have thought the disparity would be that large. A good time for failed academy kids in this country to get into coaching potentially🤔 |
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Post by wuzza on Jul 19, 2024 11:00:44 GMT
The simple answer is they are as good.
Two factors appear to me to have contributed to the current situation -
1. A self perpetuating media inspired myth that football supporters (including owners) have (as they often do) bought into in their droves.
2 The influx of foreign players who foreign managers have better connections / insights to.
Coaching ability never seemed to be a problem for the likes of Clough, Paisley , Ferguson (extending the issue to British rather than just English) etc in producing teams that won trophies and dominated European competitions for a considerable period.
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Post by JoeinOz on Jul 19, 2024 11:04:07 GMT
There's always the idea English managers don't get big jobs. Perhaps if they looked to work overseas it'd be a good step. Strasbourg is available. Are any of them going to apply?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2024 11:36:51 GMT
England is small. There are many more people around the World than just in England. It stands to reason that on average, one of these people will be better than an English manager.
Edit: you also have to see that very few former players are even looking at management as a logical next step. A lot of the better players of the last generation have made more money than they’ll ever need and have no reason to continue working.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 19, 2024 11:39:50 GMT
English coaches don't get the big jobs so they are not going to win the pl that might be the right thin g from the clubs pov of course They don’t get them though because they’re not good enough. There’s an issue in English football with the quality of the managers we produce. |
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Post by femark on Jul 19, 2024 11:57:13 GMT
There's always the idea English managers don't get big jobs. Perhaps if they looked to work overseas it'd be a good step. Strasbourg is available. Are any of them going to apply? Language barrier is somewhat of an issue. Around 40% of Europeans speak english as a second language so they are able to coach in England easily. The same can't be said for english managers... |
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Post by Gods on Jul 19, 2024 11:58:50 GMT
Eddie Howe is at a club who might win something.
David Moyes won some kinda euro trophy at West Ham and got sacked for his trouble. I suppose he's a scot though.
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Post by march4 on Jul 19, 2024 12:08:56 GMT
The UK is a small country. As a percentage of the global population ours is fairly small.
And we have already seen the genius of TP whose brand of football will come to the fore in a decade’s time and dominate for a century or more.
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Post by baconburger on Jul 19, 2024 12:24:04 GMT
Eddie Howe is at a club who might win something. David Moyes won some kinda euro trophy at West Ham and got sacked for his trouble. I suppose he's a scot though. He got sacked because his dour version of football is not aspirational. Once you’re not winning things with that sort of football you’re toast. |
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Post by baconburger on Jul 19, 2024 12:25:56 GMT
The UK is a small country. As a percentage of the global population ours is fairly small. And we have already seen the genius of TP whose brand of football will come to the fore in a decade’s time and dominate for a century or more. Yeah of course it will, in your dreams. If it was so productive how come his teams were usually one of the lowest scoring in their respective division?? |
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Post by Veritas on Jul 19, 2024 12:48:14 GMT
The simple answer is they are as good. Two factors appear to me to have contributed to the current situation - 1. A self perpetuating media inspired myth that football supporters (including owners) have (as they often do) bought into in their droves. 2 The influx of foreign players who foreign managers have better connections / insights to. Coaching ability never seemed to be a problem for the likes of Clough, Paisley , Ferguson (extending the issue to British rather than just English) etc in producing teams that won trophies and dominated European competitions for a considerable period. Clough in particular did little if any coaching he was first and foremost an inspirational man manager, but that was a different era. |
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Post by march4 on Jul 19, 2024 12:51:12 GMT
The UK is a small country. As a percentage of the global population ours is fairly small. And we have already seen the genius of TP whose brand of football will come to the fore in a decade’s time and dominate for a century or more. Yeah of course it will, in your dreams. If it was so productive how come his teams were usually one of the lowest scoring in their respective division?? Because goals are irrelevant. Surely you know that. |
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 19, 2024 12:51:20 GMT
You need to go back a couple of stages. The data is a few years out of date now but as of 2018 there were "2,769 English coaches holding Uefa's B, A and Pro badges, its top qualifications. Spain has produced 23,995, Italy 29,420, Germany 34,970 and France 17,588. There are 2.25 million players in England and only one Uefa-qualified coach for every 812 people playing the game. Spain, have 408,134 players, giving a ratio of 1:17. In Italy, the ratio is 1:48, in France it is 1:96, Germany 1:150 and even Greece, the Euro 2004 winners, have only 180,000 registered players for their 1,100 coaches, a ratio of 1:135." This should be highlighted as the main starting point for any discussion on this subject. Mind-blowing statistics. My question would be, why do think this hasn't been addressed? |
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Post by wuzza on Jul 19, 2024 13:01:12 GMT
The simple answer is they are as good. Two factors appear to me to have contributed to the current situation - 1. A self perpetuating media inspired myth that football supporters (including owners) have (as they often do) bought into in their droves. 2 The influx of foreign players who foreign managers have better connections / insights to. Coaching ability never seemed to be a problem for the likes of Clough, Paisley , Ferguson (extending the issue to British rather than just English) etc in producing teams that won trophies and dominated European competitions for a considerable period. Clough in particular did little if any coaching he was first and foremost an inspirational man manager, but that was a different era. The sweatshirt and trackies fooled me 🙂 (Peter Taylor was English too) |
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Post by baconburger on Jul 19, 2024 13:01:43 GMT
Yeah of course it will, in your dreams. If it was so productive how come his teams were usually one of the lowest scoring in their respective division?? Because goals are irrelevant. Surely you know that. Ah that old chestnut and here was me thinking they’re the most relevant metric there is POMO doesn’t work. Though I’m pretty sure the game has gone too far in the opposite direction and become quite boring as a result. There is a balance to be found. I find football a lot less exciting than I did in the past it needs quicker penetration without going all hooftastic. |
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Post by lordb on Jul 19, 2024 13:10:40 GMT
English coaches don't get the big jobs so they are not going to win the pl that might be the right thin g from the clubs pov of course They don’t get them though because they’re not good enough. There’s an issue in English football with the quality of the managers we produce. but Maresca is? |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 19, 2024 13:10:43 GMT
There's always the idea English managers don't get big jobs. Perhaps if they looked to work overseas it'd be a good step. Strasbourg is available. Are any of them going to apply? I agree. I think that the parochialism you refer to inflicts damage on England's chances across the board: coaches, players, tactics, etc, they're all at least one step behind the best on offer elsewhere. There's no reason why they should be. Why can't England become a world leader like Spain, France, Argentina etc in producing players, coaches, teams. No reason, but it never seems to happen. |
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jul 19, 2024 13:12:31 GMT
Great stats from Prestwich I think we really have to start there.
Why dont we have enough QUALIFIED coaches?
As a correlation of that statistic, I dont see too many ex-players doing their coaching badges and starting with U21 level teams. Kudos to Ryan Shawcross for starting there.
Its common in Europe for ex-players to coach youth teams as a first experience, where there is less pressure and they can formulate their own ideas and tactics AWAY from the glare of the media and fans. Surely thats a good environment to learn the ropes.
In England the whole U21 scene is a bit of a joke for the past few years. Not enough money is invested there, so apart from the top top clubs then many others dont have academies and dont take U21 football seriously. This means there are less opportunities for new coaches to enter. The likes of Gerrard/Lampard/Rooney skipped these phases and went straight to Championship level clubs.
In this situation its all about WINNING from Day 1 and no chance to develop some ideas. I would have thought Gerrard or Lampard to become pretty decent managers over time, but it looks like they are washed up already.
Just my 2 cents on the subject, not sure if its the root cause of not enough coaches.
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Post by baconburger on Jul 19, 2024 13:14:15 GMT
Far too many British coaches seem to have a dour don’t lose mentality. Thankfully not ours for once.
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Post by march4 on Jul 19, 2024 13:27:30 GMT
Because goals are irrelevant. Surely you know that. Ah that old chestnut and here was me thinking they’re the most relevant metric there is POMO doesn’t work. Though I’m pretty sure the game has gone too far in the opposite direction and become quite boring as a result. There is a balance to be found. I find football a lot less exciting than I did in the past it needs quicker penetration without going all hooftastic. Fair enough. |
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Post by somersetpotter on Jul 19, 2024 13:39:20 GMT
There's always the idea English managers don't get big jobs. Perhaps if they looked to work overseas it'd be a good step. Strasbourg is available. Are any of them going to apply? Look at how Graham Potter made his mark… |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 19, 2024 14:15:54 GMT
The simple answer is they are as good. Two factors appear to me to have contributed to the current situation - 1. A self perpetuating media inspired myth that football supporters (including owners) have (as they often do) bought into in their droves. 2 The influx of foreign players who foreign managers have better connections / insights to. Coaching ability never seemed to be a problem for the likes of Clough, Paisley , Ferguson (extending the issue to British rather than just English) etc in producing teams that won trophies and dominated European competitions for a considerable period. Clough in particular did little if any coaching he was first and foremost an inspirational man manager, but that was a different era. You're right it was a different era. I think there was a bit more to him than just being an inspirational man manager. I'm just reading the Duncan Hamilton book, 20 years with Brian Clough. A very good read I hasten to add. He was at his best an incredible double act with Peter Taylor. Taylor identified most of the players and clough put the systems in place for them to succeed and managed their egos. His most significant signing by his own words...one Peter Shilton from us. I didn't realise quite how good a striker Clough was. His Boro record was outstanding until his horrific injury at 25 or 26. That injury propelled him on and gave him his fight. But also led him to his progressive brand of football which in essence seemed to be let them express themselves and let them entertain. Must have been magical to be a forest fan for those few successful years. |
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 19, 2024 14:32:06 GMT
Clough in particular did little if any coaching he was first and foremost an inspirational man manager, but that was a different era. You're right it was a different era. I think there was a bit more to him than just being an inspirational man manager. I'm just reading the Duncan Hamilton book, 20 years with Brian Clough. A very good read I hasten to add. He was at his best an incredible double act with Peter Taylor. Taylor identified most of the players and clough put the systems in place for them to succeed and managed their egos. His most significant signing by his own words...one Peter Shilton from us. I didn't realise quite how good a striker Clough was. His Boro record was outstanding until his horrific injury at 25 or 26. That injury propelled him on and gave him his fight. But also led him to his progressive brand of football which in essence seemed to be let them express themselves and let them entertain. Must have been magical to be a forest fan for those few successful years. A good coach and tactician is not one who necessarily makes the game more complicated, or has the most original ideas imo. Even the approach of having a John McGovern in the side who totally focused on reliably getting the ball out to John Robertson's feet as quick as possible takes tactical insight, and of course it was very effective. There are coaches who are too tactical for their players. I remember Sheffield FC (Tier 8) brought in Mick Wadsworth as manager/coach a few years back, it seemed like a massive coup, to get someone who had been Bobby Robson's assistant and coached at Norwich, Newcastle and Southampton. Standing next to the dugout the extent of his tactical knowledge was clearly obvious, but the players just got confused with too many instructions and directions and they plummeted down the League. I think they liked him as a bloke but the players were overthinking when they played and couldn't function. Yes the game has changed but I believe Clough was a tactical genius in his years at Derby and Forest in devising a system under which those players maximised their ability and made it all function successfully. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 19, 2024 14:50:02 GMT
You're right it was a different era. I think there was a bit more to him than just being an inspirational man manager. I'm just reading the Duncan Hamilton book, 20 years with Brian Clough. A very good read I hasten to add. He was at his best an incredible double act with Peter Taylor. Taylor identified most of the players and clough put the systems in place for them to succeed and managed their egos. His most significant signing by his own words...one Peter Shilton from us. I didn't realise quite how good a striker Clough was. His Boro record was outstanding until his horrific injury at 25 or 26. That injury propelled him on and gave him his fight. But also led him to his progressive brand of football which in essence seemed to be let them express themselves and let them entertain. Must have been magical to be a forest fan for those few successful years. A good coach and tactician is not one who necessarily makes the game more complicated, or has the most original ideas imo. Even the approach of having a John McGovern in the side who totally focused on reliably getting the ball out to John Robertson's feet as quick as possible takes tactical insight, and of course it was very effective. There are coaches who are too tactical for their players. I remember Sheffield FC (Tier 8) brought in Mick Wadsworth as manager/coach a few years back, it seemed like a massive coup, to get someone who had been Bobby Robson's assistant and coached at Norwich, Newcastle and Southampton. Standing next to the dugout the extent of his tactical knowledge was clearly obvious, but the players just got confused with too many instructions and directions and they plummeted down the League. I think they liked him as a bloke but the players were overthinking when they played and couldn't function. Yes the game has changed but I believe Clough was a tactical genius in his years at Derby and Forest in devising a system under which those players maximised their ability and made it all function successfully. Yes a few references in the book of how there were some players who were instructed that their job was to move the ball as quickly as possible to, shall we say, their more creative players. But one thing resonates, they all had a job and they all knew what that job was in the team but they were all important. |
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Post by baystokie on Jul 19, 2024 17:28:15 GMT
English coaches don't get the big jobs so they are not going to win the pl that might be the right thin g from the clubs pov of course They don’t get them though because they’re not good enough. There’s an issue in English football with the quality of the managers we produce. Too many managers of clubs in England are ex-footballers. This does not necessarily mean that they will make good managers (eg Stanley Matthews at Port Vale). For too many years, coaching was not considered essential and the English/British tended to think that footballers were born and there was no need to havehundreds of coaches qualifying if they were not going to be employed. Many non-British managers tend not to think 'outside the box' in tactics and strategy - the job risk is too great and you can't blame them. I am old enough to remember the 1953 Puskas-inspired Hungarians (2 matches v England won 6-3 and 7-1). The England players could not even understand what their opponents were doing or how they were playing. It had not been thought necessary to coach our players in their own technical requirements let alone instruct them in the requirements for countering their opponents. |
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