|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 5, 2024 12:59:42 GMT
Stealing a tweet: Some perspective from 🇬🇧 Conservative MP Jeremy Hunt: “We are lucky to live where decisions like this are not made by bombs or bullets, but by 1000s of citizens placing crosses in boxes. Brave Ukrainians are dying every day to defend their right to do what we did.” British democracy is so much healthier than the US', Brits should be proud of that. Yeah but Ukrainians didn't have to put up with Laura Kuenssberg for eight hours.
|
|
|
Post by toppercorner on Jul 5, 2024 13:03:41 GMT
Nobody is mentioning the elephant in the room on turnout and Labour vote suppression that of voter id Why do you think voter ID suppresses the Labour vote. I don’t understand? They refuse student Id, Oyster cards and other travel cards, plus other forms of genuine id, as they know the young generally don’t vote for them (and who would with the threat of national service, increasing student loans and an impossible housing situation) Whereas mostl forms of id available to the older voter are ok. Therefore theoretically harder for younger voters to Labour, whereas the old can vote Tory/reform with less hassle.
|
|
|
Post by toppercorner on Jul 5, 2024 13:03:41 GMT
Nobody is mentioning the elephant in the room on turnout and Labour vote suppression that of voter id Why do you think voter ID suppresses the Labour vote. I don’t understand? They refuse student Id, Oyster cards and other travel cards, plus other forms of genuine id, as they know the young generally don’t vote for them (and who would with the threat of national service, increasing student loans and an impossible housing situation) Whereas mostl forms of id available to the older voter are ok. Therefore theoretically harder for younger voters to Labour, whereas the old can vote Tory/reform with less hassle.
|
|
|
Post by musik on Jul 5, 2024 13:09:47 GMT
Ok. In Sweden we had a political party called VPK, which stands for The Left Party The Communists. In my school when I was 7-15 years old 90% of all teachers voted for them. A few on the Social Democrats, only one teacher on the Conservatives M and a number on even more extreme revolutionary violence thirsty communist parties like KFMLr who wanted to solve it all with a bloody revolution. Noone of all the teachers (30+) voted on any Liberals, Christ Democrats or Green Party. VPK then didn't want to call themselves Communists anymore and therefore changed the name to V (simply The Left Party). When VPK became V (today about 10% vote for them here), another party was established called APK. They were much more Soviet Union friendly. At the same time KFMLr became KPMLr and still were China friendly. They saw China as the paradise on Earth. APK suffered from bancrupctcy and then SKP was formed. SKP = Sweden's Communist Party. Their main goal is this: The Party must prepare the working class for its historic task: to overthrow the exploitative rule of the bourgeoisie, to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat, that is, workers' power, and to build socialism and communism. In other words they want to abandon democracy and establish dictatorship. No matter what it takes. They reason like this: It's unfair with a different income depending on WHAT you work with, a surgeon or professor should get the same as a cashier or a cleaner. Work pay should instead be based on your effort. If you are a slow inefficient or unfocused person A producing 7 units per day at best and do so a given day, then you should get X money. If you are a skilled efficient interested productive person B willing to learn and normally produced 20 units, but have a slightly worse day and only produces 17 units, then person B shall get less than person A, X money-3. They also have a NEED criteria. If person A have stronger needs than person B for instance drug rehabilitation, then person A shall have a bonus from person B as well. Apart from these political left parties we have some equally bad or even worse, The Syndicalists and a couple I don't remember what they are called. The Swedish Security Police watch these groups constantly. What do you think of their ideas? 😵 I think because Sweden uses a form of proportional representation it gives more opportunity to a wider range of parties. In regards to this party, it does sound alot like Marxism but with Marxism there are many different adaptations. Sp o i l e r* In my time at the university studying economics as my major, one course involved Marxism and it went very well. I remember I got more points at the marxism exam than the marxist and politically involved female candidating for the Riksdag (Parliament). She was also my opponent, didn't like me, and it was quite funny. However, I have problems with a system where the state tells the citizens what is best for them in many aspects of life. In Sweden the most obvious field since the 60ies have been child care. I have even more problems with a system that not only stops but punish the ambitious, skillful, talented ones. That's how it went at school and how I see it, my experience, and later even at work places. In an ideal world we wouldn't need the state at all or as little as possible and everything or at least most of it would be private. Everyone should be allowed to think for themselves. Absolute noone should be homeless, and every basic need concerning some place to live, food and warm enough clothes had to be fulfilled. That should be an eventual government's main task, if any. If we used a value added tax system of some sort it should primarily be used on luxury items, not on food and housing. The basic standard of living should be ok for everyone and no need for any social benefits whatsoever. If some needed social benefits we could call it societal work instead and give them something to do, some task, to get it. Just to stop the enigma and stop people from being envy. The system for taxation of companies should be looked at and simplified. In the ideal world everybody paid the same (small) tax. It's all about the laws and wealth distribution, a part of the government's main task. It's sounds like an utopia, a fantasy world I know, where people actually cared and helped each other and the state made sure noone was forgotten. On the other hand, the system with less working hours is unfortunately just as much an utopia. I can mainly speak for Sweden. We have had (AI will stop it of course) as the main problem the value of working on the margin is worth less and less. Some of our political parties believe we should bring in 25 million immigrants so we totally get more from working. Of course it would give more in total, it would be strange otherwise, but per person it will be even worse. They are nutters who doesn't understand the basics. If we have a cake and bake it just somewhat larger, not even make it double, and simultaneously triple our population, what is the outcome? Everyone has lost! Here only the Left party V speak of shorter working days. I actually think it would be nice and AI will make it happen whatever we say. However when we don't get paid the same (if I understand their proposal), how the hell do they think people will cope? A M (conservative party) representative once said "with a right wing government some people will be richer, but with a left wing government everyone will get poorer". She nailed it, since that is due to the engine of controlled capitalism. The problem in Sweden among the masses isn't they have a too good time. The masses struggle to manage the day-to-day life on the margin, they just about get an income that covers what they need actually! Sweden has been the dream Paradise for the ultra rich, among one of the fastest growing income inequalities countries in the world in recent years. Then the globalisation, we unfortunately are hugely dependent on. It is a problem if we work less hours. How can we compete on the markets then? The best we can do (in Sweden) would be to stop immigration (and it doesn't matter where they come from), send back some IF they want to return (I don't support the idea sending people away if they feel they now have their roots here, it's inhuman) or send Swedes away (As I said I don't care where people come from) cause we simply have to decrease the population. Both groups can be tempted by a certain amount of money per person. "Maybe" some Swedes like to live in a warmer country (a lot actually). Send criminals (both swedes and immigrants) abroad since we don't have enough rooms in prison for them here and pay the receiver for it, exit EU to stop their policies affecting us far too much on a detail level and to stop the traffic of goods across borders (weapons, drugs, trafficking). All this to diminish our population, get more value on the margin per working hour. We would be better off definitely. Real wages rising. Afford to work less hours and possibly manage AI. And then increase our amount of money sent to poor countries in the world so they'll get an easier life. "A shit load of stuff really", you wrote. I wonder, how will all this be financed? Especially if "people are working way less and just for their basic needs", which in itself is a strange assumption, since (at least in Sweden) people work their socks of 40+ hours per week just for their basic needs, thanks to our real bad working value on the margin. It was a German female journalist who wrote an interesting book about the end of capitalism a time ago, they spoke about it on tv in our literature program Babel on our commercial free national tv. At this moment I remembered I have to borrow and read it.🤠 *gawa, since you put it as a "Spoiler, click to show" I didn't just quote your post and just replied - since when I quoted your text was shown in my reply, and I didn't know if you wanted that. I'm not all that familiar with how spoilers work.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 5, 2024 13:11:41 GMT
Why do you think voter ID suppresses the Labour vote. I don’t understand? They refuse student Id, Oyster cards and other travel cards, plus other forms of genuine id, as they know the young generally don’t vote for them (and who would with the threat of national service, increasing student loans and an impossible housing situation) Whereas mostl forms of id available to the older voter are ok. Therefore theoretically harder for younger voters to Labour, whereas the old can vote Tory/reform with less hassle. And, let's be honest, the Tories wouldn't have introduced this law if it disproportionately affected older voters! A nonsense response to tackle a problem that didn't exist in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by wannabee on Jul 5, 2024 13:13:55 GMT
Stealing a tweet: Some perspective from 🇬🇧 Conservative MP Jeremy Hunt: “We are lucky to live where decisions like this are not made by bombs or bullets, but by 1000s of citizens placing crosses in boxes. Brave Ukrainians are dying every day to defend their right to do what we did.” British democracy is so much healthier than the US', Brits should be proud of that. Sinn Fein is now the 5th biggest Political Party in UK just 2 seats behind 4th placed SNP.... just saying
|
|
|
Post by Veritas on Jul 5, 2024 13:15:07 GMT
I have always tended to favour that system but you could see a party getting over 40% in every constituency and no MP's. I haven't got an easy answer but there has to be something better than FPTP. But that would mean 60% don’t like them. So it is fair enough that they don’t get in. Not if you are the 40%
|
|
|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 5, 2024 13:18:10 GMT
Why do you think voter ID suppresses the Labour vote. I don’t understand? They refuse student Id, Oyster cards and other travel cards, plus other forms of genuine id, as they know the young generally don’t vote for them (and who would with the threat of national service, increasing student loans and an impossible housing situation) Whereas mostl forms of id available to the older voter are ok. Therefore theoretically harder for younger voters to Labour, whereas the old can vote Tory/reform with less hassle. www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Jul 5, 2024 13:23:54 GMT
Celebrate meal tonight 😁 fish and chips OK just a tip look on just eat app and on some days some shops do 40 % off Just a side note if you don't see me on so much its because I've been having problems with my eyesight so might not be posting as much Brilliant red win now let's hope the red and whites now win All the best mate. I know we’ve had our differences politically but health transcends everything.
|
|
|
Post by LL Cool Dave on Jul 5, 2024 13:33:23 GMT
I think it's also possible that alot of potential Labour voters didn't turn out today because of the inevitability of the result. This includes my wife who didn't vote today and usually votes Labour, couldn't be bothered after getting back from work knackered because 'they are going to win anyway' so switched onto Netflix instead. Nobody is mentioning the elephant in the room on turnout and Labour vote suppression that of voter id Or the redrawn boundaries which favoured the Tories. ukandeu.ac.uk/what-difference-will-the-new-constituency-boundaries-make/
|
|
|
Post by Dave the Rave on Jul 5, 2024 13:35:57 GMT
Very true that. The win in Stoke South is all the more remarkable given they pulled Yarnfield and Swynnerton into it. There'll be some sore losers around here for a while!
|
|
|
Post by shakermaker on Jul 5, 2024 13:36:51 GMT
Actually sad to see Penny go. One of the more likeable tories. This was one of the surprises for me. Portsmouth is a naval town and Penny always billed herself as a poster girl for the Armed Forces. Thought she was very respected down there, but obviously not. Shame to lose one of the sexier MPs from Parliament too!
|
|
|
Post by thisisouryear on Jul 5, 2024 13:46:33 GMT
This Farage press conference is brilliant
|
|
|
Post by rickyfullerbeer on Jul 5, 2024 13:48:11 GMT
This Farage press conference is brilliant Nigel has been infiltrated
|
|
|
Post by stokeson on Jul 5, 2024 13:52:13 GMT
This Farage press conference is brilliant Nigel has been infiltrated A loudmouth bully boy for loudmouth bully boys. So no change there. He'll be off to kiss his pals arse in a couple of weeks so he wont be stinking Clacton up again for a while.......
|
|
|
Post by neworleanstokie on Jul 5, 2024 13:53:08 GMT
Very true that. The win in Stoke South is all the more remarkable given they pulled Yarnfield and Swynnerton into it. There'll be some sore losers around here for a while! and Barlaston
|
|
|
Post by mrnovember on Jul 5, 2024 13:55:16 GMT
How long till the Clacton by election.
|
|
|
Post by werrington on Jul 5, 2024 13:59:49 GMT
It’s laughable how the voting system is now being questioned by Tories and Farage after it’s worked to their benefit for the last 2 elections
They even changed the boundaries to try and suit their needs and other ultimate benefit
Fuck em
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Jul 5, 2024 14:00:50 GMT
Actually sad to see Penny go. One of the more likeable tories. This was one of the surprises for me. Portsmouth is a naval town and Penny always billed herself as a poster girl for the Armed Forces. Thought she was very respected down there, but obviously not. Shame to lose one of the sexier MPs from Parliament too! And Theresa ……
|
|
|
Post by thisisouryear on Jul 5, 2024 14:01:05 GMT
Starmer wasting no time with his cabinet, this is what organisation looks like
|
|
|
Post by LL Cool Dave on Jul 5, 2024 14:02:23 GMT
Starmer wasting no time with his cabinet, this is what organisation looks like Tories would have had a reshuffle by now.
|
|
|
Post by thisisouryear on Jul 5, 2024 14:03:40 GMT
Starmer wasting no time with his cabinet, this is what organisation looks like Tories would have had a reshuffle by now. We're not used to this level of professionalism are we.
|
|
|
Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 5, 2024 14:17:57 GMT
Cracking line from the BBC live blog:
"The likely future chancellor, Rachel Reeves, has just arrived to see the prime minister. While there are no guarantees she becomes Keir Starmer's new neighbour in Downing Street, it would be quite the turn of events if she was not given the keys to the Treasury."
Aye, "quite the turn of events" is a bit of an understatement. Imagine the scenes as Starmer announced John McDonnell as his chancellor and a newly-restored Jeremy Corbyn replacing Angela Rayner as his deputy.
|
|
|
Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jul 5, 2024 14:22:18 GMT
Why do you think voter ID suppresses the Labour vote. I don’t understand? They refuse student Id, Oyster cards and other travel cards, plus other forms of genuine id, as they know the young generally don’t vote for them (and who would with the threat of national service, increasing student loans and an impossible housing situation) Whereas mostl forms of id available to the older voter are ok. Therefore theoretically harder for younger voters to Labour, whereas the old can vote Tory/reform with less hassle. In what world is an oyster card a form of ID? It doesn't even have your name on it!
|
|
|
Post by andystokey on Jul 5, 2024 14:23:14 GMT
The boundary redrafting us the least of the problems 10 million people aren't even on the electoral register where would the boundaries be then?
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 5, 2024 15:12:21 GMT
It’s laughable how the voting system is now being questioned by Tories and Farage after it’s worked to their benefit for the last 2 elections They even changed the boundaries to try and suit their needs and other ultimate benefit Fuck em The Tory client press were just as hypocritical. For months, years, even, they've been complaining about tactical voting and collusion by Labour and LibDem. Not fair, they cried. Last couple of weeks, the Daily Mail has been publishing daily guides to tactical voting to try to stop the Labour landslide! Also they went for Farage big time in the run up to the election. Watch them kiss his arse now!
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 5, 2024 15:15:01 GMT
How long till the Clacton by election. If Farage avoids helicopter travel he might serve the full term.....
|
|
|
Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 5, 2024 15:21:03 GMT
With a PR system wouldn't you just end up with the most powerful people in the party's putting themselves top of the chain all the time whilst the true servants of their constituents have far less to say? The parties already do that anyway - both the main parties will ship in candidates loyal to the leader if they don't like the one selected locally. The link to locality is very dependant on the system of PR adopted. Systems based on a party list system do put more control into the hands of the parties and weren't the link to locality but that isn't the only option. The Single Transferable Vote (STV) is identical to FPTP in terms of locality - you rate the options in preference order and redistribute votes of the candidates with lowest support by preference until someone acheives 50% of the vote. There are also systems that combine approaches - FPTP plus a party list to make representation more proportional to vote share.
|
|
|
Post by spitthedog on Jul 5, 2024 15:21:44 GMT
It’s laughable how the voting system is now being questioned by Tories and Farage after it’s worked to their benefit for the last 2 elections They even changed the boundaries to try and suit their needs and other ultimate benefit Fuck em I know, you couldn't make this up. (but they seem to manage somehow!)
|
|
|
Post by gawa on Jul 5, 2024 15:29:23 GMT
"Unelectable' 🤣
The funny thing more so are the starmerhoids mental gymnastics trying to explain how Starmer made the party electable.
|
|