The John Rudge Director of Football model

[Olgrligm]

With all of the change at the top (or middle) of the club's management structure, I've found myself thinking back to a time when we were surprisingly bold and cutting edge in this department. We picked Rudge up shortly after he was sacked by the Vale and Brian Little had walked out on us.

I'm not sure what the original concept was, apart from having a wise old head to help out the manager and use his massive book of contacts, but he ended up being incredibly useful over the following years. He gave the club genuine continuity through some really turbulent times and you can see how much managers like Gudjon valued having him around. Even somebody like Pulis, who isn't known as a fan of higher-ups sticking their oar into footballing things, seemed to appreciate having him at the club. Reading between the lines of news from the club over the years, his role seems to have consisted of:

1) Being an experienced older figure for the manager to lean on. You wonder if Schumacher or Jones would have benefited from somebody like that at the club?

2) Scouting and identifying players like Hansson, Shtaniuk, Hoekstra and half of our squad in the Boskamp season.

3) Dealing with the boring parts of the job so that the manager can get on with managing. From what I can make out, at various points over the years he was involved in handling player contracts, transfer fee negotiations and so on.

4) Acting as a go-between the manager and the hierarchy when things get a bit strained.

5) Tactics and football stuff. Can the corporate executive types really advise a manager on football in the way that somebody like Rudge could?

It's worth also noting that some of the success was due to Rudge having absolutely no ambition to usurp the manager's authority.

It makes you wonder if there's a 21st Century version of the post out there. I had thought that all of these sporting directors are spivvy user car salesman types who throw around lots of buzzwords and a formidable survivorship bias. As FM has shown on another thread, a lot of those types struggle to replicate their success when they're poached and taken to another club. However, an awful lot of the top teams actually have football people in the role. Barcelona have had Jordi Cruyff and Deco ('knows the club'), Arsenal have former player Edu doing the job, Villa have a former goalkeeper who worked with their manager at Sevilla, Richard Hughes at Bournemouth was a former player of Jon Walters stature, Brighton have David Weir in to replace Dan Ashworth (who, incidentally, hasn't done a particularly effective job of replicating his success at Newcastle). Palace have Dougie Freedman and Man City's Begiristain is a decorated Spanish international.

In fact, the more I like into it, the headhunted spivvy types really don't seem to do a very good job. The bloke that Chelsea brought in from Monaco got put on gardening leave after seven months. Thelwell at Everton came in with a 120-point plan in 2022 which has gone very badly, Fulham's Tony Khan has seen the club go from a solid PL team to a yo-yo club, Forest's directors over the last couple of years don't seem to have done a particularly good job.

If we're going to go down the route of sticking with young and inexperienced managers, perhaps we could do worse than bring in a modern-day John Rudge figure to look after things behind the scenes?

[onionman]

When Rudge was in that role, we had our only sustained period of progression of the past half a century.

[lordb]

Mar 21, 2024 22:24:18 GMT Olgrligm said:

With all of the change at the top (or middle) of the club's management structure, I've found myself thinking back to a time when we were surprisingly bold and cutting edge in this department. We picked Rudge up shortly after he was sacked by the Vale and Brian Little had walked out on us.

I'm not sure what the original concept was, apart from having a wise old head to help out the manager and use his massive book of contacts, but he ended up being incredibly useful over the following years. He gave the club genuine continuity through some really turbulent times and you can see how much managers like Gudjon valued having him around. Even somebody like Pulis, who isn't known as a fan of higher-ups sticking their oar into footballing things, seemed to appreciate having him at the club. Reading between the lines of news from the club over the years, his role seems to have consisted of:

1) Being an experienced older figure for the manager to lean on. You wonder if Schumacher or Jones would have benefited from somebody like that at the club?

2) Scouting and identifying players like Hansson, Shtaniuk, Hoekstra and half of our squad in the Boskamp season.

3) Dealing with the boring parts of the job so that the manager can get on with managing. From what I can make out, at various points over the years he was involved in handling player contracts, transfer fee negotiations and so on.

4) Acting as a go-between the manager and the hierarchy when things get a bit strained.

5) Tactics and football stuff. Can the corporate executive types really advise a manager on football in the way that somebody like Rudge could?

It's worth also noting that some of the success was due to Rudge having absolutely no ambition to usurp the manager's authority.

It makes you wonder if there's a 21st Century version of the post out there. I had thought that all of these sporting directors are spivvy user car salesman types who throw around lots of buzzwords and a formidable survivorship bias. As FM has shown on another thread, a lot of those types struggle to replicate their success when they're poached and taken to another club. However, an awful lot of the top teams actually have football people in the role. Barcelona have had Jordi Cruyff and Deco ('knows the club'), Arsenal have former player Edu doing the job, Villa have a former goalkeeper who worked with their manager at Sevilla, Richard Hughes at Bournemouth was a former player of Jon Walters stature, Brighton have David Weir in to replace Dan Ashworth (who, incidentally, hasn't done a particularly effective job of replicating his success at Newcastle). Palace have Dougie Freedman and Man City's Begiristain is a decorated Spanish international.

In fact, the more I like into it, the headhunted spivvy types really don't seem to do a very good job. The bloke that Chelsea brought in from Monaco got put on gardening leave after seven months. Thelwell at Everton came in with a 120-point plan in 2022 which has gone very badly, Fulham's Tony Khan has seen the club go from a solid PL team to a yo-yo club, Forest's directors over the last couple of years don't seem to have done a particularly good job.

If we're going to go down the route of sticking with young and inexperienced managers, perhaps we could do worse than bring in a modern-day John Rudge figure to look after things behind the scenes?

Rudge didn't scout any of those players however they came about essentially as presented by agents who Rudge had good contracts /relations with

I think lots of people go on about recruitment models but the reality is agents push players at clubs far more than any other factor

[lordb]

Mar 21, 2024 22:32:59 GMT onionman said:

When Rudge was in that role, we had our only sustained period of progression of the past half a century.

Thats a bit dismissive of the Macari era

[kennypowers]

Rudge had so many connections in the game over the years and one that was an interesting connection was that he became friends with Arsene Wenger after the Vale took Arsenal to Pennos back in the late 90s in the cup, this was the reason we managed to get Johnny Halls and Sebastian Svard over from Arsenal back in the day..obviously the love in with Wenger and Arsenal didn't end well once Stoke got promoted a few years later....man I LOVED John Halls! excellent on the ball, and looked absolutely class in that league... and I got to know him a bit as he was a often in the Fat Cats bar and Walkabout up Hanley and was also banging my work mates missus

[Gods]

Strange to think folks used to sing...

'He's bald, he's bent, his arse is up for rent, Johnny Rudge, Johnny Rudge'

Seems a bit disrespectful on reflection. He did do a stellar job for us.

He's the same age as Joe Biden so perhaps there is a delicate late bloom left in his career yet!?

[lordb]

Mar 21, 2024 22:59:11 GMT kennypowers said:

Rudge had so many connections in the game over the years and one that was an interesting connection was that he became friends with Arsene Wenger after the Vale took Arsenal to Pennos back in the late 90s in the cup, this was the reason we managed to get Johnny Halls and Sebastian Svard over from Arsenal back in the day..obviously the love in with Wenger and Arsenal didn't end well once Stoke got promoted a few years later....man I LOVED John Halls! excellent on the ball, and looked absolutely class in that league... and I got to know him a bit as he was a often in the Fat Cats bar and Walkabout up Hanley and was also banging my work mates missus

He was or you were?

Really good on the ball but defended like an 8 year old, never seen any other professional footballer stand square on when faced with a winger, it was weird

[kennypowers]

Mar 21, 2024 23:02:09 GMT lordb said:

Mar 21, 2024 22:59:11 GMT kennypowers said:

Rudge had so many connections in the game over the years and one that was an interesting connection was that he became friends with Arsene Wenger after the Vale took Arsenal to Pennos back in the late 90s in the cup, this was the reason we managed to get Johnny Halls and Sebastian Svard over from Arsenal back in the day..obviously the love in with Wenger and Arsenal didn't end well once Stoke got promoted a few years later....man I LOVED John Halls! excellent on the ball, and looked absolutely class in that league... and I got to know him a bit as he was a often in the Fat Cats bar and Walkabout up Hanley and was also banging my work mates missus

He was or you were?

Really good on the ball but defended like an 8 year old, never seen any other professional footballer stand square on when faced with a winger, it was weird

Oh yeah..totally cavalier type player, but very enjoyable to watch, I think most of us forgave his defensive fragility due to his entertaining way of playing at the time (we needed that entertainment at the time) and it was very much him that was banging a work mates missus haha

[Scouse]

He was also ( as many employees of our club are ) hugely moaned about and criticised on here …’ what the ‘F ‘does he do being the common theme

So much so , I was running a Stoke web site at the time , so emailed him for an explanation of his role .. never thinking he’d reply …reply ! , not only did he reply , he rang me up personally on my mobile number whilst I was at work ..think I fell off the chair , wasn’t suppose to have a mobile switched on , never mind take calls on it ..so asked him to call me back in 30 mins when I was at lunch .. and promptly ended the call … boss ( who was also a mate and a footie fan ) asked in accusing tones ..who was that .. said it was John Rudge from Stoke .. think he nearly fell off his chair.. ‘Rudge , what , and you told him to ring you back !!’

30 mins later , he rings me back !! ..explained as I’d done in my email that it was to get his side of things , due to online criticism etc ( mainly on here ) ask away any questions you like
totally unprepared ..once I’d calmed down , we spoke for the next 40 minutes or so about his role , players , signings , managers , his input etc .. a brilliant football man and gentleman through and through

Another time , two of us travelled to watch Stoke play a friendly in Ajman ( UAE ) whilst there the venue was moved 60-70 miles to Fujairah , with little choice we set off across the desert in a taxi , on the outskirts we got a call from home saying the game had been called off .🤯
After umpteen calls back home to the club to get a club contact number in UAE to confirm , they finally relented and gave my mate Rudges phone number ,whereby my mates phone battery promptly died , so he used my phone to talk ( rant ) to Rudge 🤣 ) ..there’d been some bloody good rants by me on that phone over the years , but never one as good as my mates rant to Rudge or probably one never more expensive ..though Rudgie did at least confirm the game was off and wouldn’t be played

As I said above a footie man and gentleman through and through

[onionman]

Mar 21, 2024 22:56:19 GMT lordb said:

Mar 21, 2024 22:32:59 GMT onionman said:

When Rudge was in that role, we had our only sustained period of progression of the past half a century.

Thats a bit dismissive of the Macari era

Didn’t mean to be - I loved the Macari era. Just wouldn’t call it a sustained period.

Point is that when Lou left, both times, the whole thing quickly fell apart. Maybe with a sensible football man upstairs offering some stability we might have been better placed to keep the progression going.

[PotterLog]

Mar 22, 2024 0:52:20 GMT Scouse said:

He was also ( as many employees of our club are ) hugely moaned about and criticised on here …’ what the ‘F ‘does he do being the common theme

So much so , I was running a Stoke web site at the time , so emailed him for an explanation of his role .. never thinking he’d reply …reply ! , not only did he reply , he rang me up personally on my mobile number whilst I was at work ..think I fell off the chair , wasn’t suppose to have a mobile switched on , never mind take calls on it ..so asked him to call me back in 30 mins when I was at lunch .. and promptly ended the call … boss ( who was also a mate and a footie fan ) asked in accusing tones ..who was that .. said it was John Rudge from Stoke .. think he nearly fell off his chair.. ‘Rudge , what , and you told him to ring you back !!’

30 mins later , he rings me back !! ..explained as I’d done in my email that it was to get his side of things , due to online criticism etc ( mainly on here ) ask away any questions you like
totally unprepared ..once I’d calmed down , we spoke for the next 40 minutes or so about his role , players , signings , managers , his input etc .. a brilliant football man and gentleman through and through

Another time , two of us travelled to watch Stoke play a friendly in Ajman ( UAE ) whilst there the venue was moved 60-70 miles to Fujairah , with little choice we set off across the desert in a taxi , on the outskirts we got a call from home saying the game had been called off .🤯
After umpteen calls back home to the club to get a club contact number in UAE to confirm , they finally relented and gave my mate Rudges phone number ,whereby my mates phone battery promptly died , so he used my phone to talk ( rant ) to Rudge 🤣 ) ..there’d been some bloody good rants by me on that phone over the years , but never one as good as my mates rant to Rudge or probably one never more expensive ..though Rudgie did at least confirm the game was off and wouldn’t be played

As I said above a footie man and gentleman through and through

Great stories Scouse

So come on mate… what the F *did* he do?? 😄😉

[theonlooker]

Michael O'Neil.

[prestwichpotter]

Rudgie’s office was at Trentham Golf Club wasn’t it? 😂

[lordb]

Mar 21, 2024 23:22:26 GMT kennypowers said:

Mar 21, 2024 23:02:09 GMT lordb said:

He was or you were?

Really good on the ball but defended like an 8 year old, never seen any other professional footballer stand square on when faced with a winger, it was weird

Oh yeah..totally cavalier type player, but very enjoyable to watch, I think most of us forgave his defensive fragility due to his entertaining way of playing at the time (we needed that entertainment at the time) and it was very much him that was banging a work mates missus haha

Yes his flair was a breath of fresh air

[lordb]

Mar 22, 2024 1:31:09 GMT onionman said:

Mar 21, 2024 22:56:19 GMT lordb said:

Thats a bit dismissive of the Macari era

Didn’t mean to be - I loved the Macari era. Just wouldn’t call it a sustained period.

Point is that when Lou left, both times, the whole thing quickly fell apart. Maybe with a sensible football man upstairs offering some stability we might have been better placed to keep the progression going.

Now that's a good point, particularly the second time
if a proper football man was in position rather than a Jez Moxey the 97/97 debacle could have been avoided

I think that's the central point of this thread

[Clayton Wood]

Mar 21, 2024 23:01:05 GMT Gods said:

Strange to think folks used to sing...

'He's bald, he's bent, his arse is up for rent, Johnny Rudge, Johnny Rudge'

Seems a bit disrespectful on reflection. He did do a stellar job for us.

He's the same age as Joe Biden so perhaps there is a delicate late bloom left in his career yet!?

I doubt when Biden loses to Trump he'd fancy TD to be fair mate.

[clarkeda]

Mar 21, 2024 23:02:09 GMT lordb said:

Mar 21, 2024 22:59:11 GMT kennypowers said:

Rudge had so many connections in the game over the years and one that was an interesting connection was that he became friends with Arsene Wenger after the Vale took Arsenal to Pennos back in the late 90s in the cup, this was the reason we managed to get Johnny Halls and Sebastian Svard over from Arsenal back in the day..obviously the love in with Wenger and Arsenal didn't end well once Stoke got promoted a few years later....man I LOVED John Halls! excellent on the ball, and looked absolutely class in that league... and I got to know him a bit as he was a often in the Fat Cats bar and Walkabout up Hanley and was also banging my work mates missus

He was or you were?

Really good on the ball but defended like an 8 year old, never seen any other professional footballer stand square on when faced with a winger, it was weird

I can he was a right back for us in the PL.

Bauer.

[owdgrandadstokie]

Mar 21, 2024 22:24:18 GMT Olgrligm said:

With all of the change at the top (or middle) of the club's management structure, I've found myself thinking back to a time when we were surprisingly bold and cutting edge in this department. We picked Rudge up shortly after he was sacked by the Vale and Brian Little had walked out on us.

I'm not sure what the original concept was, apart from having a wise old head to help out the manager and use his massive book of contacts, but he ended up being incredibly useful over the following years. He gave the club genuine continuity through some really turbulent times and you can see how much managers like Gudjon valued having him around. Even somebody like Pulis, who isn't known as a fan of higher-ups sticking their oar into footballing things, seemed to appreciate having him at the club. Reading between the lines of news from the club over the years, his role seems to have consisted of:

1) Being an experienced older figure for the manager to lean on. You wonder if Schumacher or Jones would have benefited from somebody like that at the club?

2) Scouting and identifying players like Hansson, Shtaniuk, Hoekstra and half of our squad in the Boskamp season.

3) Dealing with the boring parts of the job so that the manager can get on with managing. From what I can make out, at various points over the years he was involved in handling player contracts, transfer fee negotiations and so on.

4) Acting as a go-between the manager and the hierarchy when things get a bit strained.

5) Tactics and football stuff. Can the corporate executive types really advise a manager on football in the way that somebody like Rudge could?

It's worth also noting that some of the success was due to Rudge having absolutely no ambition to usurp the manager's authority.

It makes you wonder if there's a 21st Century version of the post out there. I had thought that all of these sporting directors are spivvy user car salesman types who throw around lots of buzzwords and a formidable survivorship bias. As FM has shown on another thread, a lot of those types struggle to replicate their success when they're poached and taken to another club. However, an awful lot of the top teams actually have football people in the role. Barcelona have had Jordi Cruyff and Deco ('knows the club'), Arsenal have former player Edu doing the job, Villa have a former goalkeeper who worked with their manager at Sevilla, Richard Hughes at Bournemouth was a former player of Jon Walters stature, Brighton have David Weir in to replace Dan Ashworth (who, incidentally, hasn't done a particularly effective job of replicating his success at Newcastle). Palace have Dougie Freedman and Man City's Begiristain is a decorated Spanish international.

In fact, the more I like into it, the headhunted spivvy types really don't seem to do a very good job. The bloke that Chelsea brought in from Monaco got put on gardening leave after seven months. Thelwell at Everton came in with a 120-point plan in 2022 which has gone very badly, Fulham's Tony Khan has seen the club go from a solid PL team to a yo-yo club, Forest's directors over the last couple of years don't seem to have done a particularly good job.

If we're going to go down the route of sticking with young and inexperienced managers, perhaps we could do worse than bring in a modern-day John Rudge figure to look after things behind the scenes?

You can read all about exactly what Rudgie did in his incredible 14 years at the club in his autobiography of course... To Cap It All is required reading! Fascinating!!