|
Post by mamathestriker on Mar 17, 2024 9:32:34 GMT
It all started with Hughes trying to copy Wales from Euro 2016. And it was the beginning of the end for him. And every manager since has looked at their squad that isn’t suited to playing 3 at the back, that has barely contained a wing back and thought “I know what will work, 3 at the back”. Every single fucking one of them. Oh it’ll make us stronger at the back some fans cry. IT DOESN’T. It just confuses them even fucking more as they haven’t got a brain to start with so trying to add another person to play off and communicate with just adds more thinking to their already tiny mind. It sums this club up since Hughes thought it was a good idea really. People don’t seem to want to learn. Nobody wants to seem to break the cycle. They all try the same as the bloke before and then wonder what wrong. Why can’t these highly paid professionals see that it just doesn’t work for us? It doesn't help when you'd struggle make one decent CB out of the three we have. They're all L1 or L2 standard and have no physical presence whatsoever.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 17, 2024 9:34:58 GMT
It all started with Hughes trying to copy Wales from Euro 2016. And it was the beginning of the end for him. And every manager since has looked at their squad that isn’t suited to playing 3 at the back, that has barely contained a wing back and thought “I know what will work, 3 at the back”. Every single fucking one of them. Oh it’ll make us stronger at the back some fans cry. IT DOESN’T. It just confuses them even fucking more as they haven’t got a brain to start with so trying to add another person to play off and communicate with just adds more thinking to their already tiny mind. It sums this club up since Hughes thought it was a good idea really. People don’t seem to want to learn. Nobody wants to seem to break the cycle. They all try the same as the bloke before and then wonder what wrong. Why can’t these highly paid professionals see that it just doesn’t work for us? It doesn't help when you'd struggle make one decent CB out of the three we have. They're all L1 or L2 standard and have no physical presence whatsoever. Yet two of them when they play together keep clean sheets and played in a play off chasing side last season. Makes you wonder what we do here.
|
|
|
Post by idle on Mar 17, 2024 9:35:08 GMT
Yesterday was all about the formation and tactics. The manager is 100% to blame for that shower yesterday and it started with picking such a negative team in a negative formation. He set them up to fail. Normally, I think this line of thought is is wrong as it's always prudent to look at the opponent and try to counter a few of their strengths, but yesterday this was spot on. You do not set up defensively against a team that is adventurous going forward and concedes lots of goals against. Against such teams you set up a defensive back four with a hoilding midfielder and attack. Norwich is in very good form, but mostly at home, which tells me that when teams go head on with them they'll struggle. We did the opposite and tried the same formation as vs. PNE against a very different side. Schumacher got it wrong. Simple as. I suspect maybe we'd lose anyway, but it would have been much more close. Of course, Thompson on for Pearson really hurt us, as we no longer had an effective holding midfielder to take out their central attacking midfielder/forward.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 17, 2024 9:37:45 GMT
Yesterday was all about the formation and tactics. The manager is 100% to blame for that shower yesterday and it started with picking such a negative team in a negative formation. He set them up to fail. Normally, I think this line of thought is is wrong as it's always prudent to look at the opponent and try to counter a few of their strengths, but yesterday this was spot on. You do not set up defensively against a team that is adventurous going forward and concedes lots of goals against. Against such teams you set up a defensive back four with a hoilding midfielder and attack. Norwich is in very good form, but mostly at home, which tells me that when teams go head on with them they'll struggle. We did the opposite and tried the same formation as vs. PNE against a very different side. Schumacher got it wrong. Simple as. I suspect maybe we'd lose anyway, but it would have been much more close. Of course, Thompson on for Pearson really hurt us, as we no longer had an effective holding midfielder to take out their central attacking midfielder/forward. I just have the mindset that we’re at home in a shit league with shit teams. Have a go. Why the fuck wouldn’t you? It’s just pathetic.
|
|
|
Post by FullerMagic on Mar 17, 2024 9:39:32 GMT
You can see why Schumacher has some sort of attachment to it having got 100 points and scored 80-odd goals using it last season.
In general terms, you've only got to write down the names of our players and look at them to know where the problems are though, rather than get into discussions about formations.
|
|
|
Post by Trouserdog on Mar 17, 2024 9:40:31 GMT
It doesn't help when you'd struggle make one decent CB out of the three we have. They're all L1 or L2 standard and have no physical presence whatsoever. Yet two of them when they play together keep clean sheets and played in a play off chasing side last season. Makes you wonder what we do here. Didn't McNally pretty much replace Rose in Coventry's starting line-up? I don't think they were a regular partnership were they? They are both better than Wilmot though.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 17, 2024 9:41:54 GMT
Yet two of them when they play together keep clean sheets and played in a play off chasing side last season. Makes you wonder what we do here. Didn't McNally pretty much replace Rose in Coventry's starting line-up? I don't think they were a regular partnership were they? They are both better than Wilmot though. I didn’t say they were. But they’ve been an ok partnership here and results have proven that.
|
|
|
Post by mamathestriker on Mar 17, 2024 9:42:01 GMT
Yet two of them when they play together keep clean sheets and played in a play off chasing side last season. Makes you wonder what we do here. Didn't McNally pretty much replace Rose in Coventry's starting line-up? I don't think they were a regular partnership were they? They are both better than Wilmot though. Plus they played in an extremely well managed side. McNally and Rose is our best partnership. Wilmot would be a very last resort for me.
|
|
|
Post by idle on Mar 17, 2024 12:00:38 GMT
Normally, I think this line of thought is is wrong as it's always prudent to look at the opponent and try to counter a few of their strengths, but yesterday this was spot on. You do not set up defensively against a team that is adventurous going forward and concedes lots of goals against. Against such teams you set up a defensive back four with a hoilding midfielder and attack. Norwich is in very good form, but mostly at home, which tells me that when teams go head on with them they'll struggle. We did the opposite and tried the same formation as vs. PNE against a very different side. Schumacher got it wrong. Simple as. I suspect maybe we'd lose anyway, but it would have been much more close. Of course, Thompson on for Pearson really hurt us, as we no longer had an effective holding midfielder to take out their central attacking midfielder/forward. I just have the mindset that we’re at home in a shit league with shit teams. Have a go. Why the fuck wouldn’t you? It’s just pathetic. And just wave away the fact that we're one of the shittiest teams in a shit league? No thanks, I'd rather try to be a bit more realistic. It sets me up for less dissapointment and anger.
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 17, 2024 12:04:32 GMT
I just have the mindset that we’re at home in a shit league with shit teams. Have a go. Why the fuck wouldn’t you? It’s just pathetic. And just wave away the fact that we're one of the shittiest teams in a shit league? No thanks, I'd rather try to be a bit more realistic. It sets me up for less dissapointment and anger. We’re no worse than most teams in the league. You’re giving the league too much credit. It’s a shit league with 22 shit teams. 1 good team and 1 really fucking rancid team.
|
|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Mar 17, 2024 12:11:38 GMT
Wasn't aware Mark Hughes started 3 at the back at Stoke Brian Little must have been a figment of our collective imagination * *sadly he wasn't Who could forget Bryan Small and Craig Short
|
|
|
Post by idle on Mar 17, 2024 12:18:27 GMT
And just wave away the fact that we're one of the shittiest teams in a shit league? No thanks, I'd rather try to be a bit more realistic. It sets me up for less dissapointment and anger. We’re no worse than most teams in the league. You’re giving the league too much credit. It’s a shit league with 22 shit teams. 1 good team and 1 really fucking rancid team. The table says otherwise. Sure, we can go toe-to-toe with most if we catch them on a rare bad day and an even rarer good day for us, but when we concede pretty much half our chances against and Own Goal and Thompson is our top scorers? We're shittier than most teams.
|
|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Mar 17, 2024 12:19:45 GMT
It was awful to watch towards the end of MON’s era. Then arguably even worse when Neil tried to do it. Yet somehow Schumacher has managed to take us to new depths of shite with his version of the back five. MON’s successful period came playing 4-2-3-1. Neil’s brief successful period came playing 4-3-3. If I’d been asked to give Schumacher one piece of advice when he joined it would likely have been “Don’t try and play five at the back”. And yet here we are. If was trying to do something a bit different and it wasn’t clicking I’d be much more inclined to give him more time. But seeing him try to do the exact same thing that didn’t work for either of his two immediate predecessors and then blame everything but the tactics themselves for it not working just makes me want him gone. He’s not up to it, and the perseverance with the back five is the clearest sign of that we’ll ever need. When MON did it we had a much much worse squad than this, assembled at a fraction of the price - I think it was done with that in mind I’ve no doubt he planned to ditch it once the shackles were off and he could bring in better players - particularly a holding midfielder (we were crying out for one for 18 months). SS is in sort of a similar situation, he believes it’s making us harder to beat - but he’s a much better group of players than we had back then in my view. I still believe getting rid of MoN was the biggest mistake we made (aside from hiring Jones), he was working with no money at all and his job was to see us through to last summer the big rebuild. He took the job on despite him being on a hiding to nothing (see AN’s recent interview where he openly states he didn’t take it then because it was basically too hard a job), and he made a proper fist of it. If we’d have kept him and not brought in the last 2 chancers that have walked in the door we be much better off I believe. He certainly had an eye for a loan player (which gives an insight into what he could have done with a bit more money to spend) - Bidace, Clarke, Ostigaard to name a few.
|
|
|
Post by idle on Mar 17, 2024 12:32:33 GMT
When MON did it we had a much much worse squad than this, assembled at a fraction of the price - I think it was done with that in mind I’ve no doubt he planned to ditch it once the shackles were off and he could bring in better players - particularly a holding midfielder (we were crying out for one for 18 months). 1. MON didn't think we needed a holding midfielder. 2. Are you sure the squad was worse? I'd rather have Brown than Ennis, Fletcher than all of our strikers, Allen than Laurent, Batth than Rose, Souttar than McNally, Vrancic than Baker, Smith than Hoever, Tymon than Gooch (although not by much), Fox than Wilmot, and a Campbell that actually gave a fuck. MON did well for us, but lets not kid ourselves that our squad is better now. It sure as hell isn't. The only one's that are better is Burger, and maybe Junho, and we actually have a holding midfielder in Pearson (not that I'm sure we need him). The rest is worse. (Too early to tell with Manhoef, who looks promising). MON had a knack with loanees, but most of them came a season or two early to the championship.
|
|
|
Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 17, 2024 12:32:39 GMT
Nowt wrong with 3 at the back if you have the personnel. Same with any system……
|
|
|
Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 17, 2024 12:44:16 GMT
We’re no worse than most teams in the league. You’re giving the league too much credit. It’s a shit league with 22 shit teams. 1 good team and 1 really fucking rancid team. The table says otherwise. Sure, we can go toe-to-toe with most if we catch them on a rare bad day and an even rarer good day for us, but when we concede pretty much half our chances against and Own Goal and Thompson is our top scorers? We're shittier than most teams. We can beat anyone in this league at home if we set up right and with the right attitude. Ie have a go at them.
|
|
|
Post by biddulphchav on Mar 17, 2024 12:46:05 GMT
When MON did it we had a much much worse squad than this, assembled at a fraction of the price - I think it was done with that in mind I’ve no doubt he planned to ditch it once the shackles were off and he could bring in better players - particularly a holding midfielder (we were crying out for one for 18 months). 1. MON didn't think we needed a holding midfielder. 2. Are you sure the squad was worse? I'd rather have Brown than Ennis, Fletcher than all of our strikers, Allen than Laurent, Batth than Rose, Souttar than McNally, Vrancic than Baker, Smith than Hoever, Tymon than Gooch (although not by much), Fox than Wilmot, and a Campbell that actually gave a fuck. MON did well for us, but lets not kid ourselves that our squad is better now. It sure as hell isn't. The only one's that are better is Burger, and maybe Junho, and we actually have a holding midfielder in Pearson (not that I'm sure we need him). The rest is worse. (Too early to tell with Manhoef, who looks promising). MON had a knack with loanees, but most of them came a season or two early to the championship. Some good points, when you put it like that then yeah, the squad probably was better. I suppose you could say, MoN put together a much better squad than we have now, with basically no funds. I still believe he was the right man for the job, not kidding myself that he’s the best of the managers we’ve had since we’ve been down - the results speak for that. What’s galling to me is that we brought in AN who had no track record building a side (all his success came with teams that were already doing quite well - which he confirms) for the big rebuild. While there were a lot of fans that wanted MON out, that call is on the owner - he should have seen it through to the end of last season with MON. I’m convinced we’d be mid table to better if we had
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Mar 17, 2024 13:42:08 GMT
Play it when you have the right personnel. If we put Bae behind two strikers with Burger and Baker behind Bae, then 532 wouldn’t be a problem. We don’t have a left back, so a flat back four at present is even worse of an idea.
I don’t think that playing Laurent as a 10 is doing anyone any favors.
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Mar 17, 2024 13:44:16 GMT
It doesn't help when you'd struggle make one decent CB out of the three we have. They're all L1 or L2 standard and have no physical presence whatsoever. Yet two of them when they play together keep clean sheets and played in a play off chasing side last season. Makes you wonder what we do here. Rarely together though. Rose was dropped in place of McNally. It does highlight why they perform better though as they already know each other much better. Incidentally, McNally played on the right side of a three last year.
|
|
|
Post by cvillestokie on Mar 17, 2024 13:59:41 GMT
1. MON didn't think we needed a holding midfielder. 2. Are you sure the squad was worse? I'd rather have Brown than Ennis, Fletcher than all of our strikers, Allen than Laurent, Batth than Rose, Souttar than McNally, Vrancic than Baker, Smith than Hoever, Tymon than Gooch (although not by much), Fox than Wilmot, and a Campbell that actually gave a fuck. MON did well for us, but lets not kid ourselves that our squad is better now. It sure as hell isn't. The only one's that are better is Burger, and maybe Junho, and we actually have a holding midfielder in Pearson (not that I'm sure we need him). The rest is worse. (Too early to tell with Manhoef, who looks promising). MON had a knack with loanees, but most of them came a season or two early to the championship. Some good points, when you put it like that then yeah, the squad probably was better. I suppose you could say, MoN put together a much better squad than we have now, with basically no funds. I still believe he was the right man for the job, not kidding myself that he’s the best of the managers we’ve had since we’ve been down - the results speak for that. What’s galling to me is that we brought in AN who had no track record building a side (all his success came with teams that were already doing quite well - which he confirms) for the big rebuild. While there were a lot of fans that wanted MON out, that call is on the owner - he should have seen it through to the end of last season with MON. I’m convinced we’d be mid table to better if we had My biggest confusion was that MON built a squad for 532. We got rid of that idea when we brought in AN who played a much worse 433. He recruited an entire squad to make that effective and now we are back to a version on 532 because we don’t have fullbacks 😂. The current 3421 is like a composite of the worst parts of 532 and 433 given that none of our strikers are very good up top on their own.
|
|
|
Post by fca47 on Mar 17, 2024 14:32:20 GMT
Big mistake yesterday, we looked much better second half. That midfield is just useless.
|
|
|
Post by idle on Mar 17, 2024 15:16:33 GMT
The table says otherwise. Sure, we can go toe-to-toe with most if we catch them on a rare bad day and an even rarer good day for us, but when we concede pretty much half our chances against and Own Goal and Thompson is our top scorers? We're shittier than most teams. We can beat anyone in this league at home if we set up right and with the right attitude. Ie have a go at them. Maybe. But it was just as much missing attitude as the wrong formation against Norwich. But again, I agree it was the wrong setup against Norwich.
|
|
|
Post by pieofpeter on Mar 17, 2024 15:37:24 GMT
Cause our defenders aren't good enough to play in a two and 3 is supposed to mop up at the back as the spare man.
Think yesterday was 5 3 2 when defending and then on the front foot fluid into 3-4-3 with the wingers.
Called desperation.. not working...
Their better side than us and at least years ahead in development wise. Yes performance wasn't great .. but its not going to decide season .. its Plymouth, Sheffield weds and Huddersfield games will decide our season.
Got away with it as results went with us.
|
|
|
Post by stokiespark on Mar 17, 2024 17:47:50 GMT
It works occasionally and did do as recently as Preston away. The problem is knowing when to use it and when to use another system. I feel every manager we since relegation has had a system they prefer to play, sometimes rather stubbornly. I dont feel like any of them have had the tactical nous to change it.
Albeit only marginally we looked better with a back four yesterday and i felt this is how we should have lined up. Campbell was to isolated despite his faults, Junho barely had a kick and if Laurent is an advanced midfielder you might as well give me a run there.
On the back of the Preston game we needed to be on the front foot, having the bone idle Campbell trying to press on his own was asking for trouble. Manoeff has looked decent, seems to have a turn of pace and an element of the unknown about him. Him, Junho and Campbell/Ennis should have started. Instead we have the Norwich defenders the easiest game they will ever have handing them the initiative in the process.
|
|
|
Post by mtrstudent on Mar 17, 2024 20:21:04 GMT
1. MON didn't think we needed a holding midfielder. 2. Are you sure the squad was worse? I'd rather have Brown than Ennis, Fletcher than all of our strikers, Allen than Laurent, Batth than Rose, Souttar than McNally, Vrancic than Baker, Smith than Hoever, Tymon than Gooch (although not by much), Fox than Wilmot, and a Campbell that actually gave a fuck. MON did well for us, but lets not kid ourselves that our squad is better now. It sure as hell isn't. The only one's that are better is Burger, and maybe Junho, and we actually have a holding midfielder in Pearson (not that I'm sure we need him). The rest is worse. (Too early to tell with Manhoef, who looks promising). MON had a knack with loanees, but most of them came a season or two early to the championship. Some good points, when you put it like that then yeah, the squad probably was better. I suppose you could say, MoN put together a much better squad than we have now, with basically no funds. I still believe he was the right man for the job, not kidding myself that he’s the best of the managers we’ve had since we’ve been down - the results speak for that. What’s galling to me is that we brought in AN who had no track record building a side (all his success came with teams that were already doing quite well - which he confirms) for the big rebuild. While there were a lot of fans that wanted MON out, that call is on the owner - he should have seen it through to the end of last season with MON. I’m convinced we’d be mid table to better if we had MON's a likeable chap but didn't we have the players for 4-2-3-1 and he just insisted on 3-5-2 with no holding midfielder and no striker who could make the ball stick? Thompson at LWB was one of the most painful things I remember. Maybe my mind's getting mixed up, but he seemed locked on to 3-5-2 and aimlessly passing it around the back for way way too long.
|
|
|
Post by thisisouryear on Mar 17, 2024 20:28:04 GMT
Managers study opposition and look at where they can be most effective with the players they have, I don't so I couldn't give a flying what formation a manager uses I'm just bothered by the result and a little by the performance.
|
|
|
Post by Pricey on Mar 17, 2024 20:35:44 GMT
They all think they’re the next Guardiola when the actual Guardiola is on a completely different level.
|
|
DavidY
Spectator
Posts: 40
Member is Online
|
Post by DavidY on Mar 17, 2024 20:41:23 GMT
I agree with a lot of the points made on this thread but I thought it worth commenting on what is needed to make 3-5-2 work. Every man and his dog knows that there will be space behind the wing backs, especially when possession is lost in the opponents half. The question then is what plans are there to combat this. One simple way is for the right-sided or left-sided centre back to move out and tackle or at least hold up the wide player, with the other two cantre backs and wing back shuffling across to provide cover along with the defensive midfielder. But there seemed to be no plan for this and the Norwich wide players had acres of space. This was apparent from the first minute, so either they hadn't practised this or the players had ignored any instructions. Whichever it was, nothing was done to address this glaring problem. I don't know if the coaching staff sent on messages but even if they didn't surely the players themselves could have sorted it out.
A few years ago Conte as Chelsea manager started playing Victor Moses as a wing back. Those of us who had seen him play for Stoke knew that his appetite for defending was limited to say the least. Yet it was very effective for Chelsea. To be fair to Moses he worked hard in that position but in my opinion the key to the success was the partnership he had with Azpiliqueta. Azpiliqueta's positional play and judgement was usually first class. Now Azpiliqueta was one of the best defenders around at that time. Needless to say we don't have anyone remotely of that quality but the principle of defending in a 3-5-2 is the same.
I know Mike Pejic can be tiresome but his point yesterday about the need for partnerships all over the pitch was right. In a 3-5-2 the partnerships between the wing backs and wider centre backs is abaolutely crucial. Such parnerships were entirely missing yesterday.
|
|
|
Post by a on Mar 17, 2024 22:27:41 GMT
Most teams play 3 at the back, like all systems this one is currently in fashion and it will change again in the future. The main question is, why have we been shit at using the system again and again and again? Why are some people winning leagues with the system but we've been closer to relegation - at times with decent squads. None of the teams today played a back 3, and I don’t think many actually do. Which teams are you thinking of? Besides us!
|
|
|
Post by st3mark on Mar 17, 2024 22:34:06 GMT
Most teams play 3 at the back, like all systems this one is currently in fashion and it will change again in the future. The main question is, why have we been shit at using the system again and again and again? Why are some people winning leagues with the system but we've been closer to relegation - at times with decent squads. None of the teams today played a back 3, and I don’t think many actually do. Which teams are you thinking of? Besides us! Huddersfield, Plymouth and Preston did at a glance. Newcastle did, Luton did...
|
|