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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 21, 2023 10:37:42 GMT
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/21/britain-is-much-more-liberal-minded-than-is-was-40-years-ago-study-findsI found this really interesting. The “woke” points of views from 1983 are the norm today. Will that trend continue? Yet a third of the population still see something wrong with a same sex relationship! Madness. “Age has become the biggest demographic divide in British politics since the pandemic, the study says, with younger people for the first time in 40 years becoming markedly more leftwing than older people, a development it says may be down to their sense of injustice around inequality and access to housing.“ That has to worry the tories! Or do people become more right wing with age?? Obviously this thread will descend very quickly into ridiculousness, but I thought worth flagging a fascinating article.
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Post by elystokie on Sept 21, 2023 10:51:00 GMT
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/21/britain-is-much-more-liberal-minded-than-is-was-40-years-ago-study-findsI found this really interesting. The “woke” points of views from 1983 are the norm today. Will that trend continue? Yet a third of the population still see something wrong with a same sex relationship! Madness. “Age has become the biggest demographic divide in British politics since the pandemic, the study says, with younger people for the first time in 40 years becoming markedly more leftwing than older people, a development it says may be down to their sense of injustice around inequality and access to housing.“ That has to worry the tories! Or do people become more right wing with age?? Obviously this thread will descend very quickly into ridiculousness, but I thought worth flagging a fascinating article. Can't help but wonder what the average age of the Daily Mail readership is, must be nudging 75-80 by now.
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Post by desman2 on Sept 21, 2023 10:55:44 GMT
It might continue but many people change with the times. 40 years ago having access to a home was a lot easier. Their were plenty of homes for less people. Once the population increased then demand became more relevant and like most other things when that happens then the cost of acquiring something increases significantly. Maybe that's why older people do tend to be more right leaning, and I'm sure that as todays people do acquire possessions, then their thought process will change. Their is inequality most definitely, but it effects people of all persuasions.
I'm now in my 60s and lived under both tory and labour and neither of them have addressed any of the issues that are here today, nor prevented us from arriving here. Also neither have given me any indication that they intend to rectify that any time soon.
Interesting article by the way
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Post by stiggerstackle on Sept 21, 2023 10:56:54 GMT
I think the relatability gap between generations is genuinely frightening.
In the workplace, I find I have absolutely zero in common now with people entering the jobs market now - they are almost alien to me, as I'm sure I am to them, and it is genuinely difficult to hold a conversation. I can only assume all generations have had similar feelings but there seems to have been a quantum shift in very recent years.
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Post by Goonie on Sept 21, 2023 11:48:22 GMT
It's an interesting study especially when you hear some views promulgated by the far left or identity activists proclaiming the UK is a bigoted and unjust place.
While bigotry still exists and those on the receiving end clearly suffer from this, the idea that things are as bad as the 60s, 70 and 80s, when many civil rights groups were established, is clearly out of step with the general consensus and openness of our multicultural, tolerant society.
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Post by gawa on Sept 21, 2023 11:56:21 GMT
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/21/britain-is-much-more-liberal-minded-than-is-was-40-years-ago-study-findsI found this really interesting. The “woke” points of views from 1983 are the norm today. Will that trend continue? Yet a third of the population still see something wrong with a same sex relationship! Madness. “Age has become the biggest demographic divide in British politics since the pandemic, the study says, with younger people for the first time in 40 years becoming markedly more leftwing than older people, a development it says may be down to their sense of injustice around inequality and access to housing.“ That has to worry the tories! Or do people become more right wing with age?? Obviously this thread will descend very quickly into ridiculousness, but I thought worth flagging a fascinating article. Hard to tell if this trend will continue to be honest because I feel it's quite selective with what it uses for it's comparisons. Like discussing responsibilities in the house such as ironing - the difference being 40 years ago you didn't need 2 people in a household working to survive. So women could stay at home and thus more people would have seen those chores as a womans responsibility. With the current cost of living problems, along with childcare costs etc.. I'm sure many women in todays society would gladly become a "housewife" if they could afford it. Difference is it's not possible anymore. As for gay rights, it's great to see attitudes change there in a positive way and I think alot of that just comes down to more people being exposed to it. When we live in multicultural societies people become more accepting and understanding of different cultures and races. Similarly living amongst gay people and them becomining more prominent on TV and in society normalised it and people weren't so bothered. For trans stuff I'm not too sure what I predict there - I think that's a completely different bag of worms. Of course as more people become "trans" I expect a similar trend as it will be normalised but there are issues there from a biological perspective that can't be ignored. And long term we still don't know the impacts it has on people which have converted. Over time we may get more stories from people who have converted and regret it. When you think about the amount of people who have died and been born over the last 40 years too, is it people becoming more open to new ideas? Or is it people growing up surrounded by these new ideas where they become more normalised to it and it's no longer seen as a "new idea". A person from my generation will have grown up with more openly gay people in school and with more gay icons on tv. The next generation probably has more exposer to trans stuff making that more normalised for them. But lets not forget for the majority of the last 40 years this country has voted in a conservative government so I'm not sure if we're as liberal as this suggests. When it comes to gay marriage etc.. we the people don't vote on that, our politicians do it in the commons and lords. And we can all agree alot of things they've passed are things which the population maybe wouldn't have voted for. The one thing we do vote for is our government and we seem to still vote right wing there. Where there is a disconnect between young and old is the problems affecting the different coherts. Old people don't give a fuck about housing because they're sorted. They don't care about education fees because they're not going back into education. They don't care about climate change because it won't impact them. They care about their pensions, health care, public transport etc.. because these things directly affect them. They're much more closed off to different cultures, sexs, genders, relgions because this isn't their "normal" and they get little opportunity to be exposed to it so their opinions are largely made up from what they read or hear. When it comes to young people I think there's a difference between those more liberal. On one hand you have the activist community who tend to focus more on specific issues directly affecting them or which they're passionate about. Then you have the other type of liberal person who may also be supportive of trans, climate, blm issues but they don't see them as "core" issues which I'd allign myself with more. That doesn't mean I don't support causes related to those, many of them I do, but they're not make or break for me. Housing, Education, Drugs reform, Health care, inequality are much more important and I'd pick the candidate which makes sorting those problems a priority every day over the candidate who's focus is on trans stuff. And the reason for that is that all those issues affect young people right now - trans issues are just a small percentage of people impacted and with everything being fucked right now - those issues deserve more focus in my opinion. Unfortunately for every young person paying an extra 10% tax due to studying at university and paying 50% more on rent than the average home owner with a mortgage; there are another 10 elderly people who have none of these problems and will simply vote for which party puts more money into their pension even if it means public and health services suffer as a result. There seems to be a growing trend of young people who no longer pay into pensions because they've lost faith in the system and just can't afford to make the payments anymore. This will lead to further dependency on state pensions in 30-40 years time and I imagine the cycle will continue. Because as humans we generally are selfish and always put ourselves first most of the time, and we have a number of political parties who care most about retaining power rather than resolving problems. The future is bleak from a global perspective and this is shown through the rise in global mental health issues. We don't need pills to make us into zombies, we need hope, equality and leaders who put people before corporations. But we'll never get those people while the corporations control the media.
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Post by desman2 on Sept 21, 2023 11:58:23 GMT
One interesting thing that happened to me in my working day was, I used to get paired with workmates in their 20s and 30s, and I'm talking about more recently. They used to ask what we got up to when we were their age. When you mentioned things like sub cultures, town centres full of people, two weeks holiday at Christmas, great night life etc, they didn't believe me. They thought it has always been as it is now.
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 21, 2023 12:02:50 GMT
It's to taken with a pinch of salt the same as all surveys and studies and reports.
Social attitudes will almost certainly be different in places like London where there has been an almost total replacement of population.
There is London then there is the rest of the UK and I think they'll find most ordinary people in traditional working class areas (like Stoke for example) don't think this. I obviously can't speak for everyone but neither can anyone else.
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 21, 2023 12:04:38 GMT
It's to taken with a pinch of salt the same as all surveys and studies and reports. Social attitudes will almost certainly be different in places like London where there has been an almost total replacement of population. There is London then there is the rest of the UK and I think they'll find most ordinary people in traditional working class areas (like Stoke for example) don't think this. I obviously can't speak for everyone but neither can anyone else. What basis do you say London is completely different to the rest of the UK? There are far more working class people in London than elsewhere remember.
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 21, 2023 12:12:58 GMT
It's to taken with a pinch of salt the same as all surveys and studies and reports. Social attitudes will almost certainly be different in places like London where there has been an almost total replacement of population. There is London then there is the rest of the UK and I think they'll find most ordinary people in traditional working class areas (like Stoke for example) don't think this. I obviously can't speak for everyone but neither can anyone else. What basis do you say London is completely different to the rest of the UK? There are far more working class people in London than elsewhere remember. White working class I mean. Social attitudes and traditions can and do differ between different demographical groups, especially in a place like London.
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Post by cvillestokie on Sept 21, 2023 12:32:45 GMT
www.theguardian.com/society/2023/sep/21/britain-is-much-more-liberal-minded-than-is-was-40-years-ago-study-findsI found this really interesting. The “woke” points of views from 1983 are the norm today. Will that trend continue? Yet a third of the population still see something wrong with a same sex relationship! Madness. “Age has become the biggest demographic divide in British politics since the pandemic, the study says, with younger people for the first time in 40 years becoming markedly more leftwing than older people, a development it says may be down to their sense of injustice around inequality and access to housing.“ That has to worry the tories! Or do people become more right wing with age?? Obviously this thread will descend very quickly into ridiculousness, but I thought worth flagging a fascinating article. I would add this to the comment: news.northeastern.edu/2023/01/25/millenials-age-conservative/This is a nice, quick summary of what leaders in these fields think about the relationship between changing political views and either aging, era of generation. I think it’s really interesting that he states that it used to be that people were more liberal as they aged. Now, that generation died and the current view is more conservative as you age. Now that generation is dying….
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 21, 2023 12:44:20 GMT
What basis do you say London is completely different to the rest of the UK? There are far more working class people in London than elsewhere remember. White working class I mean. Social attitudes and traditions can and do differ between different demographical groups, especially in a place like London. Of course. Do you think the large hasidic jewish population of London or Muslim population of London have very liberal views? Are you saying white working class people are less liberal than other demographics? They may be compared with some, but not more so than the two communities I have identified above, surely?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Sept 21, 2023 12:48:47 GMT
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Post by wannabee on Sept 21, 2023 13:03:37 GMT
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Post by noustie on Sept 21, 2023 13:34:16 GMT
I've probably drifted closer to the center with age but would still think I've a left slant particularly around NHS, social security and taxation. However unless you're 'all-in' with everything it gets you chucked in the right wing camp - if Russel Brand is right wing ffs I must be planning for an upcoming invasion of Poland.
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Post by redstriper on Sept 21, 2023 13:56:59 GMT
I just checked my values under www.politicalcompass.org/test - I've moved slightly left of centre rather than slight right of centre over the past decade, but more marked is how much more disillusioned and disenfranchised I've become. I used to think many politicians were just full of themselves, now I think they're almost all self-seeking self-serving tossers.
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Post by redstriper on Sept 21, 2023 14:01:21 GMT
double post
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Post by foster on Sept 21, 2023 14:18:39 GMT
I just checked my values under www.politicalcompass.org/test - I've moved slightly left of centre rather than slight right of centre over the past decade, but more marked is how much more disillusioned and disenfranchised I've become. I used to think many politicians were just full of themselves, now I think they're almost all self-seeking self-serving tossers. Came out as this... not really sure what that's supposed to mean. Guess it puts me left which doesn't really surprise me. Though I thought I'd be higher up on authoritarian scale. Economic Left/Right: -6.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.82
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Post by mtrstudent on Sept 21, 2023 14:19:25 GMT
Do schoolkids still use "gay" to just mean bad or lame?
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Post by redstriper on Sept 21, 2023 14:29:39 GMT
I just checked my values under www.politicalcompass.org/test - I've moved slightly left of centre rather than slight right of centre over the past decade, but more marked is how much more disillusioned and disenfranchised I've become. I used to think many politicians were just full of themselves, now I think they're almost all self-seeking self-serving tossers. Came out as this... not really sure what that's supposed to mean. Guess it puts me left which doesn't really surprise me. Though I thought I'd be higher up on authoritarian scale. Economic Left/Right: -6.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.82 Pretty similar to my result, these days I find the idle rich more annoying than the idle poor because they consume far more of the planets resources - the environment is my No 1 concern nowadays. I'd rather leave my daughter a planet on the mend than a million in the bank.
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Post by cvillestokie on Sept 21, 2023 14:42:21 GMT
I just checked my values under www.politicalcompass.org/test - I've moved slightly left of centre rather than slight right of centre over the past decade, but more marked is how much more disillusioned and disenfranchised I've become. I used to think many politicians were just full of themselves, now I think they're almost all self-seeking self-serving tossers. Came out as this... not really sure what that's supposed to mean. Guess it puts me left which doesn't really surprise me. Though I thought I'd be higher up on authoritarian scale. Economic Left/Right: -6.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.82 Economic Left/Right: -4.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.9 Seemingly, I’m center left with a tendency towards being a libertarian. Not shocking to me.
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 21, 2023 14:47:44 GMT
Where there is a disconnect between young and old is the problems affecting the different coherts. Old people don't give a fuck about housing because they're sorted. They don't care about education fees because they're not going back into education. They don't care about climate change because it won't impact them. They care about their pensions, health care, public transport etc.. because these things directly affect them. They're much more closed off to different cultures, sexs, genders, relgions because this isn't their "normal" and they get little opportunity to be exposed to it so their opinions are largely made up from what they read or hear. Unfortunately for every young person paying an extra 10% tax due to studying at university and paying 50% more on rent than the average home owner with a mortgage; there are another 10 elderly people who have none of these problems and will simply vote for which party puts more money into their pension even if it means public and health services suffer as a result. There seems to be a growing trend of young people who no longer pay into pensions because they've lost faith in the system and just can't afford to make the payments anymore. This will lead to further dependency on state pensions in 30-40 years time and I imagine the cycle will continue. I've cut parts of your post out 'cos I just wanted to focus on these two paragraphs as they're something I heard a lot during the Brexit vote & they were as equally moronic then as they are now. Go & find any 60+ year old in the country & ask them who they care more about, themselves or their grandchildren. Every single last one of them will tell you how they'd give up the world for their grandchildren to have a better future. Take your own family gawa, I have no idea how old you are so I don't know if your grandparents are alive or not, but if they are do you really believe that they "Don't give a fuck" about your future? Or if you have kids of your own do you believe that your mum & dad "Don't give a fuck" about your kids future? All of these old people were young once, they all thought that they knew best, that life would be easy, that they could always get their own way, could always have whatever they wanted, just like they always used to have when their selfish "Don't give a fuck" grandparents used to do everything to make them happy... But then they had some growing up to do, they got out of their 'know-it-all' teens & 20's and became 'proper' adults with wives/husbands/children, if they got lucky they got a house, maybe a business too, and along the way they gained a lifetimes worth of experience & knowledge of how the world works & what life is really all about. ... And then, apparently, they turned into "Don't give a fuck" old people who "Don't give a fuck" about their own children, their grandchildren, their great grandchildren, their community, their city, their country. Nope, they all just dialed it in & said I "Don't give a fuck" about any of you anymore. Do you really, genuinely believe that?
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Post by desman2 on Sept 21, 2023 15:06:54 GMT
The only " Don't give a fuck " people are those who have been around to live under the same old two party system and insist on repeating the process. You cant blame the two party system for getting us to where we are. If we weren't dumb enough to keep repeating it then we might be in a different place. In other words we are to blame for it because we put the cross on the paper. And incidentally that has no age disparity. Its always one or the other but never anything different. When you mention it to someone ,one of the responses is who do we vote for. Well you have everything from small parties to independents but people still persist with the same old way. They remind me of someone on a sinking ship being offered a life jacket and preferring to drown because there might be a shark in the water.
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Post by stiggerstackle on Sept 21, 2023 15:14:02 GMT
I'm a left-leaning libertarian - does that mean I'm gay?!?
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Post by gawa on Sept 21, 2023 15:24:24 GMT
Where there is a disconnect between young and old is the problems affecting the different coherts. Old people don't give a fuck about housing because they're sorted. They don't care about education fees because they're not going back into education. They don't care about climate change because it won't impact them. They care about their pensions, health care, public transport etc.. because these things directly affect them. They're much more closed off to different cultures, sexs, genders, relgions because this isn't their "normal" and they get little opportunity to be exposed to it so their opinions are largely made up from what they read or hear. Unfortunately for every young person paying an extra 10% tax due to studying at university and paying 50% more on rent than the average home owner with a mortgage; there are another 10 elderly people who have none of these problems and will simply vote for which party puts more money into their pension even if it means public and health services suffer as a result. There seems to be a growing trend of young people who no longer pay into pensions because they've lost faith in the system and just can't afford to make the payments anymore. This will lead to further dependency on state pensions in 30-40 years time and I imagine the cycle will continue. I've cut parts of your post out 'cos I just wanted to focus on these two paragraphs as they're something I heard a lot during the Brexit vote & they were as equally moronic then as they are now. Go & find any 60+ year old in the country & ask them who they care more about, themselves or their grandchildren. Every single last one of them will tell you how they'd give up the world for their grandchildren to have a better future. Take your own family gawa, I have no idea how old you are so I don't know if your grandparents are alive or not, but if they are do you really believe that they "Don't give a fuck" about your future? Or if you have kids of your own do you believe that your mum & dad "Don't give a fuck" about your kids future? All of these old people were young once, they all thought that they knew best, that life would be easy, that they could always get their own way, could always have whatever they wanted, just like they always used to have when their selfish "Don't give a fuck" grandparents used to do everything to make them happy... But then they had some growing up to do, they got out of their 'know-it-all' teens & 20's and became 'proper' adults with wives/husbands/children, if they got lucky they got a house, maybe a business too, and along the way they gained a lifetimes worth of experience & knowledge of how the world works & what life is really all about. ... And then, apparently, they turned into "Don't give a fuck" old people who "Don't give a fuck" about their own children, their grandchildren, their great grandchildren, their community, their city, their country. Nope, they all just dialed it in & said I "Don't give a fuck" about any of you anymore. Do you really, genuinely believe that? Was a generalisation because I'm fucked off with old people who vote conservative and in doing so keep fucking over the youth. I'm not sure if your old yourself but I'm guessing you may be. Fact is most of the conservative votes come from elderly people. So what was it that they said, did or promised over the last 13 years that made you or others vote for them because "that will really help my grandkids" I know triple lock pensions to benefit pensioners was an appeal. But what was it for the young people they care so desperately about that made them vote conservative? What were they doing to help us. Increasing rent? Increasing uni fees? Making us pay for uni as an added tax? Increasing the average age we buy a home? Decreasing the percentage of us which will own homes? Making it much harder for us to get appointments unless we're called Vera due to NHS pressures? Increasing the age that we have our first kids because we can't afford it? Increasing the reliance on anti depressants and mental health issues because everyone is losing any form of hope for the future? Ovviously im fucked off hench the tone and for that im sorry. Maybe if you or someone else can explain how voting conservative was axtually for the best inerests of an old persons kids or grandkids id understand better. So please do. What I don't need protecting from though is some pansy dressed as a woman in a skirt. I can handle that myself. A parasite landlord taking the majority of our wages to pay for their mortgage is a more pressing concern for alot of us. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/03/millennials-radicalism-not-getting-more-rightwing-with-age
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Post by The Drunken Communist on Sept 21, 2023 15:38:40 GMT
Maybe if you or someone else can explain how voting conservative was axtually for the best inerests of an old persons kids or grandkids id understand better. So please do. I can't help you I'm afraid mate as I didn't, never have nor ever would vote Tory, so I have no idea why some old people would do. What I can be pretty sure of though is that the old folk who did vote Tory, did so because in their minds they felt the Tories would be the best option at providing a decent future for their kids/grandkids. We can both disagree with their opinion but I can not bring myself to believe that they "Don't give a fuck" about their kids/grandkids futures.
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Post by foster on Sept 21, 2023 15:39:59 GMT
Where there is a disconnect between young and old is the problems affecting the different coherts. Old people don't give a fuck about housing because they're sorted. They don't care about education fees because they're not going back into education. They don't care about climate change because it won't impact them. They care about their pensions, health care, public transport etc.. because these things directly affect them. They're much more closed off to different cultures, sexs, genders, relgions because this isn't their "normal" and they get little opportunity to be exposed to it so their opinions are largely made up from what they read or hear. Unfortunately for every young person paying an extra 10% tax due to studying at university and paying 50% more on rent than the average home owner with a mortgage; there are another 10 elderly people who have none of these problems and will simply vote for which party puts more money into their pension even if it means public and health services suffer as a result. There seems to be a growing trend of young people who no longer pay into pensions because they've lost faith in the system and just can't afford to make the payments anymore. This will lead to further dependency on state pensions in 30-40 years time and I imagine the cycle will continue. I've cut parts of your post out 'cos I just wanted to focus on these two paragraphs as they're something I heard a lot during the Brexit vote & they were as equally moronic then as they are now. Go & find any 60+ year old in the country & ask them who they care more about, themselves or their grandchildren. Every single last one of them will tell you how they'd give up the world for their grandchildren to have a better future. Take your own family gawa, I have no idea how old you are so I don't know if your grandparents are alive or not, but if they are do you really believe that they "Don't give a fuck" about your future? Or if you have kids of your own do you believe that your mum & dad "Don't give a fuck" about your kids future? All of these old people were young once, they all thought that they knew best, that life would be easy, that they could always get their own way, could always have whatever they wanted, just like they always used to have when their selfish "Don't give a fuck" grandparents used to do everything to make them happy... But then they had some growing up to do, they got out of their 'know-it-all' teens & 20's and became 'proper' adults with wives/husbands/children, if they got lucky they got a house, maybe a business too, and along the way they gained a lifetimes worth of experience & knowledge of how the world works & what life is really all about. ... And then, apparently, they turned into "Don't give a fuck" old people who "Don't give a fuck" about their own children, their grandchildren, their great grandchildren, their community, their city, their country. Nope, they all just dialed it in & said I "Don't give a fuck" about any of you anymore. Do you really, genuinely believe that? I think it's more a case of a Leopard not being able to change its spots. Old people clearly care about their younger relatives, they're just less likely to believe the new narrative on the environment and such. They're more inclined to continue doing what they think is best, which is what they've been doing their whole lives. It reminds me of when people say that you shouldn't judge the past based on today's standards. Edit: also need to consider that older generations will do what's best for them financially as it means more assets they can pass down in inheritance to their relatives. They may not necessarily consider or compare this with the financial impact their vote may have on younger people in that case.
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Post by gawa on Sept 21, 2023 15:43:26 GMT
Economic Left/Right: -6.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62
Where I thought I'd be.
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Post by aureliuspotter on Sept 21, 2023 15:44:38 GMT
White working class I mean. Social attitudes and traditions can and do differ between different demographical groups, especially in a place like London. Of course. Do you think the large hasidic jewish population of London or Muslim population of London have very liberal views? Are you saying white working class people are less liberal than other demographics? They may be compared with some, but not more so than the two communities I have identified above, surely? Depends what you mean by liberal. They won't be liberal when it comes to things like trans and gay issues and that's why a lot of right wing minded people that historically would of been at odds with them have actually allied themselves with muslims inparticular in recent years. It isn't just Muslims and Jews in London though, and capital cities always tend to be more liberal.
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Post by foster on Sept 21, 2023 15:48:34 GMT
Economic Left/Right: -6.88 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.62 Where I thought I'd be. Didn't realise you were such an extremist 😉
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