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Post by GrahamHyde on Sept 15, 2023 20:46:44 GMT
In the world of sports, the notion of success is often equated with a simple mantra: "winning is everything" - but this obviously places a strong emphasis on securing trophies as the ultimate measure of a club's success, something that I believe is too one dimensional considering the monopoly of those trophies domestically. While lifting silverware is undoubtedly a defining moment for any football club or nation, the idea that not winning a trophy equates to failure neglects the many layers of success that exist within the sport. Success can be found in consistently strong performances, development of young talent and even creating a positive fan experience. Clubs that maintain their competitiveness over multiple seasons, even without winning trophies, can still be successful in their own right, surely. Otherwise as Stoke fans we should all probably just give up and not bother? In a sport as dynamic and transient as football, what truly constitutes a 'successful' team? Is it solely determined by the number of trophies in their cabinet, or is it a combination of factors that encompasses the spirit of the game, such as community engagement and long-term sustainability? The simple answer may be a top half finish  |
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Post by jokker on Sept 15, 2023 21:19:00 GMT
In the world of sports, the notion of success is often equated with a simple mantra: "winning is everything" - but this obviously places a strong emphasis on securing trophies as the ultimate measure of a club's success, something that I believe is too one dimensional considering the monopoly of those trophies domestically. While lifting silverware is undoubtedly a defining moment for any football club or nation, the idea that not winning a trophy equates to failure neglects the many layers of success that exist within the sport. Success can be found in consistently strong performances, development of young talent and even creating a positive fan experience. Clubs that maintain their competitiveness over multiple seasons, even without winning trophies, can still be successful in their own right, surely. Otherwise as Stoke fans we should all probably just give up and not bother? In a sport as dynamic and transient as football, what truly constitutes a 'successful' team? Is it solely determined by the number of trophies in their cabinet, or is it a combination of factors that encompasses the spirit of the game, such as community engagement and long-term sustainability? The simple answer may be a top half finish It's too simplistic and it really depnds on each individual club/management and where they are at a given moment. For most of TP's PL years the ultimate success was staying up. Cup runs and european games were a distraction. But if Neil came out and said that his private target for success in 2023-24 was staying up the oatcake would have a meltdown. If Guardiola left Citeh and the next manager said longterm success was to emulate his predecessor but shortterm it was to ensure his players didn't drop their standards and that staying up was his current target he'd be sacked pronto. There's a whole lot of different but similar scenarios you could name. |
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Post by baconburger on Sept 15, 2023 21:30:30 GMT
In the world of sports, the notion of success is often equated with a simple mantra: "winning is everything" - but this obviously places a strong emphasis on securing trophies as the ultimate measure of a club's success, something that I believe is too one dimensional considering the monopoly of those trophies domestically. While lifting silverware is undoubtedly a defining moment for any football club or nation, the idea that not winning a trophy equates to failure neglects the many layers of success that exist within the sport. Success can be found in consistently strong performances, development of young talent and even creating a positive fan experience. Clubs that maintain their competitiveness over multiple seasons, even without winning trophies, can still be successful in their own right, surely. Otherwise as Stoke fans we should all probably just give up and not bother? In a sport as dynamic and transient as football, what truly constitutes a 'successful' team? Is it solely determined by the number of trophies in their cabinet, or is it a combination of factors that encompasses the spirit of the game, such as community engagement and long-term sustainability? The simple answer may be a top half finish Success is achieving or exceeding your KPT’s in as many areas as possible by which metric you could win a trophy but still be falling short of them in most areas. For instance winning the league cup but showing decline in performances and outcomes in the league, being relegated or seriously in peril of relegation at the business end of the season, falling gates, nothing happening to integrate emerging talent, lack of goals, facilities in decline, financial instability. Sort of describes Birmingham City one season. Was that success? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2023 21:57:30 GMT
Success is winning trophies at whatever standard you are playing isn't it?
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Post by Gods on Sept 15, 2023 22:14:50 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked.
If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind.
If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us.
So success for us in recent times has been...
-10 years in the Prem
-The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history
-A run in Europe, only one in our history
-The only ever FA Cup Final in our history
If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs.
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Post by jokker on Sept 16, 2023 5:39:27 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked. If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind. If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us. So success for us in recent times has been... -10 years in the Prem -The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history - A run in Europe, only one in our history -The only ever FA Cup Final in our history If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs. We did have two runs in Europe prior to our run with Pulis. Not recent, but you also said "in our history." In the 70s we took part in the UEFA cup twice. in 1972 we played Kaiserslautern and won the first leg, then lost in the second leg. Was it a success? Yes, because we won a game vs a top team, and no, because we didn't win a trophy. In 1974 we played Ajax and were beaten by the away goals rule. It was a relative success, because no one could have expected us to win vs one of the greatest european teams in the 70s, but we actually looked good, didn't lose and were unlucky to go out on that rule. We also took part in some minor european cups, but they're not really worth mentioning. |
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Post by GrahamHyde on Sept 16, 2023 6:05:14 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked. If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind. If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us. So success for us in recent times has been... -10 years in the Prem -The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history -A run in Europe, only one in our history -The only ever FA Cup Final in our history If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs. I agree, think it's all relative to your position at the time. For example with England I think it's fair that Southgate vastly exceeded expectations at WC 2018, but is now at a point where we should be expecting to win the Euros next year. |
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Post by noustie on Sept 16, 2023 7:02:19 GMT
Part of my issue is success in a business sense is taking over from a sporting. Certain teams target fourth as their trophy because without it they could be financially fucked for a couple of seasons. Alternatively need to get up from the championship before the parachute payments run out rather than simply wanting it from a sporting perspective.
Business hates uncertainty whereas football is shit without it. Much prefer watching the kids play in a morning and will probably watch either Carnoustie or Arbroath this afternoon instead of getting a stream.
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Post by potterpaul on Sept 16, 2023 7:32:47 GMT
Admin please merge with 'expectations' thread
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Post by baconburger on Sept 16, 2023 7:34:45 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked. If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind. If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us. So success for us in recent times has been... -10 years in the Prem -The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history -A run in Europe, only one in our history -The only ever FA Cup Final in our history If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs. I agree, think it's all relative to your position at the time. For example with England I think it's fair that Southgate vastly exceeded expectations at WC 2018, but is now at a point where we should be expecting to win the Euros next year. I think even that could end up being one of those successes where he’s missed the majority of his other KPT’s. I’m not really sure how you judge interest in the national team, I suspect TV audiences would be the best barometer but personally I find the games so dull I don’t even bother putting them on never mind watching them. Sure I’ll be there in front of the telly when a major tournament comes back around but even then I find watching a chore. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 16, 2023 7:55:19 GMT
Success is winning trophies at whatever standard you are playing isn't it? Would you say Pochettino wasn’t a success at Spurs? |
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 16, 2023 7:58:44 GMT
I think success is a personal thing based on expectations and it varies from club to club
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Post by baconburger on Sept 16, 2023 8:01:32 GMT
I think success is a personal thing based on expectations and it varies from club to club If you enjoyed it, it was a success. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Sept 16, 2023 8:16:52 GMT
There are two completely separate definitions:
1 What a supporter sees as success for their club. This can be anything from winning the league to just getting a team out on the pitch and that is pretty much down to personal expectations and may vary season by season.
2 What everyone else sees as success for every other club. This is pretty much all to do with winning trophies. Pretty much everyone would acknowledge Manchester City as a successful club and pretty much nobody would acknowledge Port Vale as a successful club. Nor us for that matter.
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 16, 2023 8:23:52 GMT
The definition of success is 'the accomplishment of an aim or purpose'. The aims and purposes for each club are very different.
The aim and purpose of this club is promotion to the PL.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2023 8:45:23 GMT
Success is winning trophies at whatever standard you are playing isn't it? Would you say Pochettino wasn’t a success at Spurs? Fair enough. They came within 90 minutes of winning the European Cup, but there are plenty of people who believe that he isn't a top manager as he has never won owt. Trophies, Promotions are what it's all about isn't it? |
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Post by owdgrandadstokie on Sept 16, 2023 8:50:00 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked. If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind. If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us. So success for us in recent times has been... -10 years in the Prem -The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history - A run in Europe, only one in our history -The only ever FA Cup Final in our history If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs. We did have two runs in Europe prior to our run with Pulis. Not recent, but you also said "in our history." In the 70s we took part in the UEFA cup twice. in 1972 we played Kaiserslautern and won the first leg, then lost in the second leg. Was it a success? Yes, because we won a game vs a top team, and no, because we didn't win a trophy. In 1974 we played Ajax and were beaten by the away goals rule. It was a relative success, because no one could have expected us to win vs one of the greatest european teams in the 70s, but we actually looked good, didn't lose and were unlucky to go out on that rule. We also took part in some minor european cups, but they're not really worth mentioning. Technically, of course, for us pedants, a 'run' would involve not being knocked out at the first stage of a competition (as we were in 72/3 and 74/5 ... you're welcome 😊 |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 16, 2023 9:27:27 GMT
Would you say Pochettino wasn’t a success at Spurs? Fair enough. They came within 90 minutes of winning the European Cup, but there are plenty of people who believe that he isn't a top manager as he has never won owt. Trophies, Promotions are what it's all about isn't it? Plenty of people who are wrong, yes. I think it’s far too narrow and basic to say it’s only about trophies, the journey is often as good as the destination. What we’re effectively saying is that we had no success beyond the promotion in 2008 for our 10 years in the Prem, but I’d argue that was a successful time for us way beyond that. Brighton didn’t win anything last season but they’ll still rightly see this as a successful period for them. It’s performances/results/placings relative to your status and expectations as much as anything imo. |
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 16, 2023 9:44:12 GMT
Would you say Pochettino wasn’t a success at Spurs? Fair enough. They came within 90 minutes of winning the European Cup, but there are plenty of people who believe that he isn't a top manager as he has never won owt. Trophies, Promotions are what it's all about isn't it? If Pochettino doesn't get classed as a 'successful' manager, then who does? How many successful managers are there? A small percentage really! I don't think the list will be very long, based on what most people seem to consider as successful (i.e. winning trophies) Even winning trophies doesn't seem to guarantee someone being regarded as successful in the long run. I suppose it's all relative to expectations, of which most are unrealistic. Some facts though...... There were a staggering 735 top-flight dismissals over Europe in 22/23 presumably these would be all categorised as failures. Less than 500 kept their jobs but they wont be considered successful if they dont keep their jobs this season, and the chances of them doing that look slim, seeing as the average length of management is 1.3 years. In short, there ain't much in the way of success in this business, unless we are prepared to shift our understanding of the word. For me success is winning the next football game, or not losing if playing a team you expect to lose to. Maybe there needs to be more categories? Everything these days seems either one thing or the other and nothing in between. Successful Not successful (but not a failure) Not quite unsuccessful Failure! |
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Post by nottsover60 on Sept 16, 2023 10:09:40 GMT
I think success is a personal thing based on expectations and it varies from club to club Yes, I am sure Spurs fans expect their team to win trophies yet the rest of us know them as the nearly team who are always round about but never the winners and even when competing with Leicester that year they fell short as we all knew they would😁😁 |
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Post by baconburger on Sept 16, 2023 10:31:17 GMT
Fair enough. They came within 90 minutes of winning the European Cup, but there are plenty of people who believe that he isn't a top manager as he has never won owt. Trophies, Promotions are what it's all about isn't it? Plenty of people who are wrong, yes. I think it’s far too narrow and basic to say it’s only about trophies, the journey is often as good as the destination. What we’re effectively saying is that we had no success beyond the promotion in 2008 for our 10 years in the Prem, but I’d argue that was a successful time for us way beyond that. Brighton didn’t win anything last season but they’ll still rightly see this as a successful period for them. It’s performances/results/placings relative to your status and expectations as much as anything imo. I didn’t enjoy a large swathe of our promotion season. For the majority of our cup final season we were garbage. The European season imo ranked amongst our worst in the prem. Potch won nothing at Spurs but the fans enjoyed the ride. Personally I’d far rather enjoy the ride every season than endure the experience and win a trophy per generation. |
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Post by theonlooker on Sept 16, 2023 10:34:33 GMT
The problem for Potch is that despite all of his success, however relevant it is or isn't, he still lost a two horse race to Leicester City.
I can't help thinking that a genuine, bona fide achieving manager would have made easy work of winning that particular race.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Sept 16, 2023 10:38:48 GMT
Plenty of people who are wrong, yes. I think it’s far too narrow and basic to say it’s only about trophies, the journey is often as good as the destination. What we’re effectively saying is that we had no success beyond the promotion in 2008 for our 10 years in the Prem, but I’d argue that was a successful time for us way beyond that. Brighton didn’t win anything last season but they’ll still rightly see this as a successful period for them. It’s performances/results/placings relative to your status and expectations as much as anything imo. I didn’t enjoy a large swathe of our promotion season. For the majority of our cup final season we were garbage. The European season imo ranked amongst our worst in the prem. Potch won nothing at Spurs but the fans enjoyed the ride. Personally I’d far rather enjoy the ride every season than endure the experience and win a trophy per generation. I enjoyed the promotion season very much but agree completely about the European season, it was one of the least enjoyable of our Prem run. |
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Post by baconburger on Sept 16, 2023 10:42:04 GMT
I didn’t enjoy a large swathe of our promotion season. For the majority of our cup final season we were garbage. The European season imo ranked amongst our worst in the prem. Potch won nothing at Spurs but the fans enjoyed the ride. Personally I’d far rather enjoy the ride every season than endure the experience and win a trophy per generation. I enjoyed the promotion season very much but agree completely about the European season, it was one of the least enjoyable of our Prem run. I enjoyed promotion season until Southampton and Scunthorpe at home in the same week. I think about the only game I enjoyed after that was Bristol City at home. 6 goals and 6 pts in a week we conceded 4 and the bloke shit himself. |
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Post by Gods on Sept 16, 2023 10:43:41 GMT
I think 'success' and 'expectations' are inextricably linked. If you exceed expectations that's success, of a kind. If instead you say its about winning trophies then we may as well all give up, we'll most of us. So success for us in recent times has been... -10 years in the Prem -The only 3 consecutive top half, top flight finishes in our history - A run in Europe, only one in our history -The only ever FA Cup Final in our history If you want more than this then you need to sign up with one of the super-sized oil clubs. We did have two runs in Europe prior to our run with Pulis. Not recent, but you also said "in our history." In the 70s we took part in the UEFA cup twice. in 1972 we played Kaiserslautern and won the first leg, then lost in the second leg. Was it a success? Yes, because we won a game vs a top team, and no, because we didn't win a trophy. In 1974 we played Ajax and were beaten by the away goals rule. It was a relative success, because no one could have expected us to win vs one of the greatest european teams in the 70s, but we actually looked good, didn't lose and were unlucky to go out on that rule. We also took part in some minor european cups, but they're not really worth mentioning. Yes I am aware of that, indeed I was in the Butler Street Paddock on that famous night of the 1-1 draw at the Victoria Ground against what was then the mighty Ajax of Amsterdam. For sure it was one of the great nights of our history. I was being a little disingenuous calling out the more recent European campaign as our 'only run' but doing so in the sense that we did not not ultimately proceed to the next round in either of the 1970's campaigns. |
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Sept 16, 2023 10:47:45 GMT
Promotion - success
Staying in the Premier - success
Reaching the FA Cup Final - success although I've never watched it back, never will! 😒
Europe - success to a degree
Three 9 the placed finishes - success
For 23 years all of the above were beyond our wildest dreams. It's been spectacular failure since.
Let's hope it's not another 23 years, if it is, a fair few of us won't see it! 😬
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 16, 2023 10:53:02 GMT
I think success is a personal thing based on expectations and it varies from club to club Yes, I am sure Spurs fans expect their team to win trophies yet the rest of us know them as the nearly team who are always round about but never the winners and even when competing with Leicester that year they fell short as we all knew they would😁😁 I agree, every club on the globe wants trophies, thing is there are only so many of them to go around. Spurs as a club are competing amongst the Man City's, Utd's, Chelsea's, Arsenal's and now Newcastle are emerging and Brighton are punching well above their weight. So are Spurs failures if they don't win anything again this season? Probably, but are they expected to be winning them, as supporters of that club, yes but as neutral spectators, probably not. Was it Wigan who won the cup a few years back and then relegated the next season, remarkable success but would they swap that cup to be in the position Brighton and Brentford are now without their cups, because their current success is as equally as remarkable. Personally I think unless you're a Big top 5 Premiership club your success should be defined by your progress year on year, especially clubs like us. With hopes of more but without unrealistic expectations. You've got probably ten clubs in this division that all believe they should be right up there. Only three can make the grade |
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Post by vidigal7 on Sept 16, 2023 11:15:36 GMT
It must be crap being a Spurs fan though, too big a club to be troubled by the mere mortals holding you up but not enough gunnery to shoot down the ones you're propping up
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Post by Vermelho20312505 on Sept 16, 2023 11:20:38 GMT
Success is winning trophies at whatever standard you are playing isn't it? No. Otherwise it would mean that practically every team fails every year. Success depends on realistic goals, whether you match or exceed them. |
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Post by idle on Sept 16, 2023 12:15:56 GMT
Success for a football club is much more than just sporting achievements.
What about giving entertainment, unity and a force for good in the community?
Something for young footballers to aspire to, to cheer for and to emulate?
I'd rather we stayed in the championship and do that, than being bought by "777 dwarves" from the US and be a part of a global football conglomerate.
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