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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 7, 2023 8:27:30 GMT
The windfall tax is rubbish in the current form because the companies can avoid it entirely if they invest in fossil fuels. If they invest in green energy, they still have to pay the windfall tax. If we keep getting energy from the dwindling supply of fossil fuels, prices will keep rising for consumers and the energy companies will make double profits again next year. We need to tax the hell out of them, and encourage green energy investment only. Green energy investment is great, but means nothing to consumers without the necessary price reduction. It's insane that energy companies are allowed to charge consumers the same unit price for electricity for renewable energy as standard electricity. We need legislation from the government that enables a proper price structure for Green energy so it's cheaper (as it should be) for consumers and separates electricity prices from the gas price. Given the record profits being announced all over the place, we need the government and OFGEM to actually do their job and properly review the energy price cap, as in the current climate can quite clearly come down and not have any hugely negative impact for the companies. But they won't, as we saw in the pandemic there are government ministers with financial interests that would prefer these things to drag on longer for their own ends I completely agree
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 7, 2023 8:35:30 GMT
She'll have announced their record profits this morning, DOUBLE their profits for the previous year. It's disgusting that people are forced into paying more for energy than any other time in history and these companies break records with profit margins. and yet some still disagree with a windfall tax on these companies. There is no energy price "challenge" for these companies, they are in full greed mode and our government is enabling it. Check out which Political Party has been receiving large "donations".
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 7, 2023 8:38:55 GMT
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Post by superjw on Feb 7, 2023 11:42:11 GMT
Just proves that current prices in the UK don't need to be as high as they are.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 14:46:38 GMT
Sure they're making massive profits, this year. After massive losses during the pandemic. You can check stock prices (Total, Shell, BP etc) they don't scream supernormal profits. How would you like them regulating? Were you calling for a minimum price for energy when some firms (quite literally) couldn't give the stuff away in 2020? The energy firms are all multinationals you can tinker around the edges but you can't have the state fixing prices. Otherwise the firms will just sell elsewhere. Agree that we need to wean ourselves off dirty (often imported from dubious regimes) fossil fuels. I'm just not sure it needs to be state that does it. Any individual can invest in renewable technology generation (at home or abroad). I don't see any reason for the state to be involved. Did they make massive losses during the pandemic? Shell Annual Gross Profit (Millions of US $) 2021 $72,500 2020 $40,354 2019 $70,331 2018 $73,847 2017 $59,826 2016 $46,917 2015 $43,698 2014 $69,804 2013 $72,736 2012 $82,656 2011 $85,626 2010 $68,482 2009 $54,575 Please provide a source. This suggests a loss of 20 billion USD in 2020. www.statista.com/statistics/260287/shells-net-income/
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 14:47:34 GMT
Just proves that current prices in the UK don't need to be as high as they are. It doesn’t prove anything. It’s absolute horseshit. Another unsourced piece of ‘data’.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2023 17:16:04 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 7, 2023 17:27:29 GMT
Did they make massive losses during the pandemic? Shell Annual Gross Profit (Millions of US $) 2021 $72,500 2020 $40,354 2019 $70,331 2018 $73,847 2017 $59,826 2016 $46,917 2015 $43,698 2014 $69,804 2013 $72,736 2012 $82,656 2011 $85,626 2010 $68,482 2009 $54,575 Please provide a source. This suggests a loss of 20 billion USD in 2020. www.statista.com/statistics/260287/shells-net-income/Happy to go with your figures and agree they made a big loss in 2020. One year out of 14. Every one of the rest they made billions.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 7, 2023 17:28:49 GMT
Something doesn't feel quite right. I'm sure we were told that everything would get cheaper and better following leaving the EU.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 18:05:20 GMT
Happy to go with your figures and agree they made a big loss in 2020. One year out of 14. Every one of the rest they made billions. They’re not my figures. They’re ‘the’ figures. Reasonable people can disagree about this stuff but reasonable people should also check their sources. How much profit should a company like Shell make?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 7, 2023 18:11:20 GMT
Happy to go with your figures and agree they made a big loss in 2020. One year out of 14. Every one of the rest they made billions. They’re not my figures. They’re ‘the’ figures. Reasonable people can disagree about this stuff but reasonable people should also check their sources. How much profit should a company like Shell make? Happy to go with 'the' figures. One year's loss out of 14 years making billions in net profits (probably more, if the figures went back further). I'm not feeling that sorry for them, on that basis. I don't know. But as much as possible without worrying too much about the consequences for the planet or people seems to be the answer so far.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 18:49:28 GMT
But energy bills aren’t cheaper in the EU. I’m not arguing for/against Brexit/Tories (or whatever) but there’s so much opining going on here based on ‘fake’ news. I expect it from Huddy but some of the rest of you should do better. On the EUs price cap. It’s is a good 50% higher than the current wholesale price for gas anyway (I.e. window dressing). LNG will likely go elsewhere if it looks like the price cap might be breached. There’s also plans being made to switch TTF trading to London if necessary.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 19:09:25 GMT
That price cap story is quite funny. The German government held out on agreeing to it unless they could suspend it if it affected energy supplies. Clever lot the Germans.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 7, 2023 19:50:33 GMT
But energy bills aren’t cheaper in the EU. I’m not arguing for/against Brexit/Tories (or whatever) but there’s so much opining going on here based on ‘fake’ news. I expect it from Huddy but some of the rest of you should do better. On the EUs price cap. It’s is a good 50% higher than the current wholesale price for gas anyway (I.e. window dressing). LNG will likely go elsewhere if it looks like the price cap might be breached. There’s also plans being made to switch TTF trading to London if necessary.
Numerous articles have suggested otherwise over the last few months:
"The average UK household electricity price is at least 30 per cent higher than in many of its European neighbours, with the country’s greater reliance on natural gas for power generation hitting consumers hard."
"UK household electricity prices have surged ahead of European peers."
"Even before today's hike was announced UK households faced some of the highest prices in Europe - nearly double France."
"Another index of prices put recent UK household electricity prices considerably above those of the five largest EU economies."
"Britain has the highest electricity costs in Europe, with consumers paying almost eight times as much as in some other countries, new research shows."
"The UK has been hardest hit by the cost of electricity in Europe."
"The UK has also seen a 209.1% increase in gas prices compared to 2021 and is faced with the fourth largest increase in gas prices out of 24 countries within this study."
There are of course dozens more ...
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 20:52:19 GMT
But energy bills aren’t cheaper in the EU. I’m not arguing for/against Brexit/Tories (or whatever) but there’s so much opining going on here based on ‘fake’ news. I expect it from Huddy but some of the rest of you should do better. On the EUs price cap. It’s is a good 50% higher than the current wholesale price for gas anyway (I.e. window dressing). LNG will likely go elsewhere if it looks like the price cap might be breached. There’s also plans being made to switch TTF trading to London if necessary. Numerous articles have suggested otherwise over the last few months:
"The average UK household electricity price is at least 30 per cent higher than in many of its European neighbours, with the country’s greater reliance on natural gas for power generation hitting consumers hard."
"UK household electricity prices have surged ahead of European peers."
"Even before today's hike was announced UK households faced some of the highest prices in Europe - nearly double France."
"Another index of prices put recent UK household electricity prices considerably above those of the five largest EU economies." "Britain has the highest electricity costs in Europe, with consumers paying almost eight times as much as in some other countries, new research shows." "The UK has been hardest hit by the cost of electricity in Europe."
"The UK has also seen a 209.1% increase in gas prices compared to 2021 and is faced with the fourth largest increase in gas prices out of 24 countries within this study." There are of course dozens more ...
Thanks for the links. It’s all August/Sept so not really relevant any more. It’s due to the timing and nature of various domestic government interventions (E.g UK IIRC favoured one of payments at first as opposed to domestic price caps). My understanding is that NL/DE households are now paying more per unit than UK households. I haven’t seen a good index. France is an outlier because prices are basically subbed completely via the tax payer. Note we (well they) pay in the end. Blanket subsidies are not good iMHO because they’re basically subbing the rich and disincentivising energy/efficiency savings. I preferred targeted (more generous) support to vulnerable households. Criticism applies to most governments across Europe. Wholesale prices across Western Europe and UK are broadly similar (as you’d expect in a market). Check the TTF and uK gas prices on trading economics you can see that they move in lockstep with each other (but be careful to note they’re prices for therms and MwH so not completely comparable). The latest wholesale price cap is (as I said in an earlier post) wholly idiotic, as implicitly confirmed by the German government, and will actually do entirely nothing for EU consumers.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 21:04:32 GMT
As a side rant to follow up on my comments about blanket subsidies price caps etc.
Can we (governments across this west) please stop shovelling money at rich people. I understand the Tories looking after their base but Labour keep egging them on. Dementia tax/energy price caps/etc etc etc.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 7, 2023 21:13:10 GMT
UK electricity price cap more generous than NL and and DE (for electricity not sure about gas).
Fortunately it looks like wholesale prices now coming in lower than the price cap. Hope that continues.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 8, 2023 7:41:25 GMT
But energy bills aren’t cheaper in the EU. I’m not arguing for/against Brexit/Tories (or whatever) but there’s so much opining going on here based on ‘fake’ news. I expect it from Huddy but some of the rest of you should do better. On the EUs price cap. It’s is a good 50% higher than the current wholesale price for gas anyway (I.e. window dressing). LNG will likely go elsewhere if it looks like the price cap might be breached. There’s also plans being made to switch TTF trading to London if necessary. As has been pointed out to you, there are numerous references to confirm that they are dramatically cheaper. I'd suggest you try to "do better".
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 8, 2023 15:50:50 GMT
But energy bills aren’t cheaper in the EU. I’m not arguing for/against Brexit/Tories (or whatever) but there’s so much opining going on here based on ‘fake’ news. I expect it from Huddy but some of the rest of you should do better. On the EUs price cap. It’s is a good 50% higher than the current wholesale price for gas anyway (I.e. window dressing). LNG will likely go elsewhere if it looks like the price cap might be breached. There’s also plans being made to switch TTF trading to London if . As has been pointed out to you, there are numerous references to confirm that they are dramatically cheaper. I'd suggest you try to "do better". I replied to Spencer’s post.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Feb 9, 2023 1:23:38 GMT
As has been pointed out to you, there are numerous references to confirm that they are dramatically cheaper. I'd suggest you try to "do better". I replied to Spencer’s post.
It wasn't a great reply to be fair, that's why I didn't bother replying to it.
Of course the links I provided are still relevant.
You stated that energy wasn't cheaper in Europe than in the UK and accused me of posting 'fake news' and that I should 'do better'.
Is there parity at the moment? I don't know if I'm honest but there have been months of credible sources throughout 2022 reporting that energy has been far more expensive here than in Europe.
People in the UK have been paying vastly inflated bills for a good while now, if that is finally beginning to change, then great but I certainly wasn't making stuff up.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 9, 2023 7:14:20 GMT
I replied to Spencer’s post. It wasn't a great reply to be fair, that's why I didn't bother replying to it. Of course the links I provided are still relevant. You stated that energy wasn't cheaper in Europe than in the UK and accused me of posting 'fake news' and that I should 'do better'.
Is there parity at the moment? I don't know if I'm honest but there have been months of credible sources throughout 2022 reporting that energy has been far more expensive here than in Europe. People in the UK have been paying vastly inflated bills for a good while now, if that is finally beginning to change, then great but I certainly wasn't making stuff up.
Sorry. The ‘do better’ reads as patronising. That wasn’t my sincere intention it was more exasperation. I think I was responding to Huddy and his screengrab of an anonymous tweet which clearly is fake news. The problem with the articles you posted is that they were all time bound to a point prior to the announcement of the ‘price cap’. There aren’t any recent articles readily available presumably because three is no longer a story. You might fairly criticise the delayed UK government response for being late. The problem with country comparisons is that they’re quite often apples/oranges anyway. iIRC UK was making one off payments to households in the spring which wouldn’t show. Current situation is that UK price cap is lower than Germany/Netherlands but I havent looked elsewhere. Typical bill for average use in NL would be about 300 eur (per month). I think in UK it’s about 250 GBP (under the price cap). Ultimately, wholesale prices are what count (because ultimately the population will pay one way or another). Wholesale prices are easily checked and compared. I think you can fairly criticise UK and argue different policies are better or fairer but it’s not true that prices are cheaper in the EU.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Feb 9, 2023 12:01:30 GMT
Anyone got an Octopus referral code?
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Post by franklin on Feb 9, 2023 21:58:15 GMT
It wasn't a great reply to be fair, that's why I didn't bother replying to it. Of course the links I provided are still relevant. You stated that energy wasn't cheaper in Europe than in the UK and accused me of posting 'fake news' and that I should 'do better'.
Is there parity at the moment? I don't know if I'm honest but there have been months of credible sources throughout 2022 reporting that energy has been far more expensive here than in Europe. People in the UK have been paying vastly inflated bills for a good while now, if that is finally beginning to change, then great but I certainly wasn't making stuff up.
Sorry. The ‘do better’ reads as patronising. That wasn’t my sincere intention it was more exasperation. I think I was responding to Huddy and his screengrab of an anonymous tweet which clearly is fake news. The problem with the articles you posted is that they were all time bound to a point prior to the announcement of the ‘price cap’. There aren’t any recent articles readily available presumably because three is no longer a story. You might fairly criticise the delayed UK government response for being late. The problem with country comparisons is that they’re quite often apples/oranges anyway. iIRC UK was making one off payments to households in the spring which wouldn’t show. Current situation is that UK price cap is lower than Germany/Netherlands but I havent looked elsewhere. Typical bill for average use in NL would be about 300 eur (per month). I think in UK it’s about 250 GBP (under the price cap). Ultimately, wholesale prices are what count (because ultimately the population will pay one way or another). Wholesale prices are easily checked and compared. I think you can fairly criticise UK and argue different policies are better or fairer but it’s not true that prices are cheaper in the EU. I've not taken much notice abroad but I do know my lads energy cost are more than mine and he lives in Germany.
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Post by swampmongrel on Feb 10, 2023 7:17:13 GMT
Sorry. The ‘do better’ reads as patronising. That wasn’t my sincere intention it was more exasperation. I think I was responding to Huddy and his screengrab of an anonymous tweet which clearly is fake news. The problem with the articles you posted is that they were all time bound to a point prior to the announcement of the ‘price cap’. There aren’t any recent articles readily available presumably because three is no longer a story. You might fairly criticise the delayed UK government response for being late. The problem with country comparisons is that they’re quite often apples/oranges anyway. iIRC UK was making one off payments to households in the spring which wouldn’t show. Current situation is that UK price cap is lower than Germany/Netherlands but I havent looked elsewhere. Typical bill for average use in NL would be about 300 eur (per month). I think in UK it’s about 250 GBP (under the price cap). Ultimately, wholesale prices are what count (because ultimately the population will pay one way or another). Wholesale prices are easily checked and compared. I think you can fairly criticise UK and argue different policies are better or fairer but it’s not true that prices are cheaper in the EU. I've not taken much notice abroad but I do know my lads energy cost are more than mine and he lives in Germany. Germany should have stayed in the EU.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 16, 2023 7:47:59 GMT
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Post by riverman on Feb 16, 2023 8:00:40 GMT
Rank profiteering, no more no less. Energy crisis my arse!
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Post by stokecitydom on Feb 16, 2023 8:07:45 GMT
Anyone got an Octopus referral code? Did you sort out an octopus referral code? As I’ll send one to you and anyone else who wants one. We both get £50 free credit, so worthwhile.
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Post by knype on Feb 16, 2023 8:28:44 GMT
Anyone got an Octopus referral code? Did you sort out an octopus referral code? As I’ll send one to you and anyone else who wants one. We both get £50 free credit, so worthwhile. I can also supply one if anyone wants one!
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Post by teenagefanclub on Feb 16, 2023 9:00:18 GMT
Did you sort out an octopus referral code? As I’ll send one to you and anyone else who wants one. We both get £50 free credit, so worthwhile. I can also supply one if anyone wants one! And me. Have to say I’ve found them to be really good and quick service if you ever need to contact them.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Feb 16, 2023 15:08:34 GMT
Anyone got an Octopus referral code? Did you sort out an octopus referral code? As I’ll send one to you and anyone else who wants one. We both get £50 free credit, so worthwhile. Fire it over mate.
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