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Post by Staffsoatcake on Mar 18, 2022 12:06:35 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 18, 2022 12:08:59 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things? Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. |
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nickhfc
Youth Player
Dave Kitson in ITV3 'Life'
Posts: 473
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Post by nickhfc on Mar 18, 2022 12:09:05 GMT
The players didn’t like his system so gave up?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Mar 18, 2022 12:09:24 GMT
Smaller club
Smaller expectations
Mick Harford
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 18, 2022 12:18:03 GMT
Smaller club Smaller expectations Mick Harford Exactly. Pulis did wonders for us, but the second he started bringing in bigger players, our performances dropped. He’d have been awful trying to inspire a Top 4 team to go out there, sit back and try to catch plucky Brighton on the break. Some mentalities work for some clubs. |
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Post by jokker on Mar 18, 2022 12:20:22 GMT
Because he couldn't make up his mind which players to play, so dropped six every game and introduced six new ones, who then were dropped for the next game.
Because none of our players believed sufficiently in his religion.
Because he believed the hype about himself, but none of it was true.
Because he wanted to prove that he wasn't a one-trick-diamond, so he used a variety of different tactical systems, often during the same game.
Because he was so insecure about the players he allegedly bought that he preferred using Rowett's purchases instead.
Because he refused to play Nick Powell.
Because he sold Bojan.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Mar 18, 2022 12:21:05 GMT
In the first stint he had Jack Stacey and Justin James which he employed as full backs in a system that enhanced their responsibility. He then came to Stoke assuming the system was the magic piece and decided not to bother with a left back. He failed understand the importance of the personnel in that position and his belief he could retrain McClean into that position. Once things went against him he made terrible decisions and that might be because he's terrible under real pressure, pressure that he's not experienced at Luton.
He would say it's because the group of players were not the right group, they didn't have the right mentality. Unfortunately for him many have performed at a higher level than him indicating they must have something about them. The idea that we had a squad of 20+ players who all didn't want to play football is the environment he'll sell you. However he may have assumed it would be a simple-ish task to get the players to fall into line whereas this was really the job, the systems were secondary.
His next stint at Luton he's built a good team and that will be helped by the authority he has there, something that he never established at Stoke. If he told them he was signing Stephen Ward their fans would nod and believe in the process, whereas we look at it like it's the actions of a madman.
Ow and Sam Vokes, Sam Vokes is awful.
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Post by thestatusquo on Mar 18, 2022 12:24:18 GMT
As with most Messiah’s he was just a very naughty boy
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Post by a on Mar 18, 2022 12:25:28 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things? Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. Stephen Ward to play that incredibly demanding wing back role was beyond mental. |
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Post by Fred Merger on Mar 18, 2022 12:27:42 GMT
Because as with Rowett he was used to working with a much smaller budget and players on a lot less money. Also with that comes players with smaller ego's and usually better attitudes to the game. Certainly some players weren't performing on purpose for Jones as is now happening to MON. If or when MON is replaced I wouldn't be that surprised to see an upturn in results.
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Post by Pugsley on Mar 18, 2022 12:28:58 GMT
Smaller club Smaller expectations Mick Harford Exactly. Pulis did wonders for us, but the second he started bringing in bigger players, our performances dropped. He’d have been awful trying to inspire a Top 4 team to go out there, sit back and try to catch plucky Brighton on the break. Some mentalities work for some clubs. Little old Stoke.... That mentality was instilled by Pulis himself. We've had 'bigger' players like Arnie, Bojan, Shaq who have all done excellent things for the club and had us playing great football. |
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Post by clintonbaptiste on Mar 18, 2022 12:33:15 GMT
I think it's down to the 2 groups of players. At Luton they know they're underdogs and causing some good upsets and playing for each other and the team. At Stoke he inherited a team full of ego's who think/thought they belong in the PL, many of which probably had a 'who the fuck are you?' attitude. I doubt very much that he carried much authority here but that's purely speculating.
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Post by clintonbaptiste on Mar 18, 2022 12:34:23 GMT
Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. Stephen Ward to play that incredibly demanding wing back role was beyond mental. One of worst signings in a good while that one, he joins a long list though  |
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Post by questionable on Mar 18, 2022 12:38:02 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things? Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. From what I was told there was a “list” of targets that “seemingly” were all on Lutons radar that Jones came along with, presumably it was their scouting lists. Which I guess suggests people were messing where they shouldn’t be involved with us ?? |
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Post by uknorse on Mar 18, 2022 12:38:33 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things? Theres a world of difference between managing lower league players with non/ little egos, who are ( as per his first stint at luton) playing at the highest level of their careers...and established international players,most who where ex Premier league signings and the egos that go with it all..... moyes lost his job at utd because he came up against huge egos, he hadnt experienced anything like that at everton...... todays footballers hold all the power in the game, . Jones has gone back to luton. And pretty much picked up where he left off.....if they went up, he wouldnt see Christmas, they would need a new team,( with egos) and he would struggle again. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 18, 2022 12:49:23 GMT
Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. From what I was told there was a “list” of targets that “seemingly” were all on Lutons radar that Jones came along with, presumably it was their scouting lists. Which I guess suggests people were messing where they shouldn’t be involved with us ?? Jones himself has said they were all his signings. Ward clearly was his, he'd worked with him before. The vast majority of our transfers are and have always been manager-driven. |
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Post by stokie223 on Mar 18, 2022 13:02:42 GMT
Signing a 34-year-old Stephen Ward to play in a formation which demands your wings backs to be amongst your best, and most creative, players - to play with intensity, athleticism and pace, will never make sense to me until the day I die. Truly baffling and one of our worst ever signings.
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Post by wuzza on Mar 18, 2022 13:07:47 GMT
Why did Brian Clough fail at Leeds ?
Scale it down a bit but the same reasons probably apply for Jones here.
Different set ups , different mentalities - one size doesn’t fit all.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2022 13:11:08 GMT
Trying to motivate Vokes, Ince, McClean on the contracts they were on would be a fantastic task for many a manager. Ndiaye was not interested and Indi went through the motions. Liam Lindsay and Carter Vickers were not a great fit. Lee Gregory was inspiring. It was quite possibly the worse squad of players assembled for the task in hand when looking back on them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019–20_Stoke_City_F.C._season#Squad_statistics |
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Post by theonlooker on Mar 18, 2022 13:16:16 GMT
He was just too inexperienced for the job and the structure above him just wasn't there - and still isn't to date. He came with a pre planned system that had worked and he tried to shoe horn it into what he had here and it didn't work. It looks like he has really learned from it as he's gone back to Luton and is using a number of different systems there. The dressing room issues that were here before he came probably manifested further whilst he was here and that probably eventually swamped him from the other angle.
His recruitment in some quarters was strange, borderline lunacy. The Stephen Ward transfer will confuse me for many different reasons for a long time - from both the club and manager angles.
I quite liked him overall as his determination to do the job and do it well shone through, and was very frustrated it didn't work out. He's proving what a good manager he is now and the twisted irony is he'd probably make a very good fist of the job now he is that more experienced.
It's all water under the bridge now though. He was given more time to turn it round than he should, which pretty much took him and the club to the edge, and he's moved on. Good luck to him.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2022 13:19:24 GMT
theonlookernail on head he tried his system too soon on players who were 'ink dried on contract' unmotivated wastrels!
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Post by femark on Mar 18, 2022 13:20:25 GMT
Recruitment - whether that was all down to him or not is debatable.
From Justin and Stacey to Ward
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Post by callas12 on Mar 18, 2022 15:19:55 GMT
Quite simply the players didn't engrain themselves into or respect his ways and coaching abilities. They naturally look at his playing & coaching achievements on arriving and either buy into the new ideas or just simply don't.
Common demoninator coaches/managers encounter at most football clubs. Players who have played at a higher level will always think I've been there & done it while you rocked it at Yeovil!
I know for a fact players used to switch off when Dean Smith used to coach the Villa players during training sessions. Yet when John Terry spoke, he would command immediate respect & attention, purely coz of who he was and what he'd achieved.. Champions & Premier League Winner John Terry giving advice versus Walsall & Port Vale hero Dean Smith.
Definitely not right but you can easily see why & how it happens. Happens in most walks of life I'd imagine aswell.
So at Luton where Jones talks the talk and majoity of players will buy into his passion and mad rants.
At Stoke players were like, 'who do you think you are?'!
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Post by jokker on Mar 18, 2022 15:21:26 GMT
From what I was told there was a “list” of targets that “seemingly” were all on Lutons radar that Jones came along with, presumably it was their scouting lists. Which I guess suggests people were messing where they shouldn’t be involved with us ?? Jones himself has said they were all his signings. Ward clearly was his, he'd worked with him before. The vast majority of our transfers are and have always been manager-driven. Allegedly. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Mar 18, 2022 15:46:21 GMT
Jones himself has said they were all his signings. Ward clearly was his, he'd worked with him before. The vast majority of our transfers are and have always been manager-driven. Allegedly. Which ones are you suggesting weren't? Etebo certainly wasn't. Brek Shea wasn't. Erik Pieters wasn't. Who am I missing? |
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Post by Bojan Mackey on Mar 18, 2022 16:08:24 GMT
Because he’s a twat.
Next.
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 18, 2022 16:11:32 GMT
God's will
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Post by kidcrewbob on Mar 18, 2022 16:27:59 GMT
At Stoke, but his 2 stints at Luton he has done great things? Because his methods require a substantial amount of buy-in that a hungry, upwardly mobile team of underdogs is up for but a collection of jaded, wealthy 'names' wasn't. And then when he had the chance to sign some of that type of player he instead signed ones who weren't remotely suited to playing his way either. And then he panicked and it was over. Spot on - fading big-time Charlies had no respect for him and didn’t buy into his plans....... |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2022 17:28:10 GMT
interviewed after the last stoke v luton game
he said ...he told his players at half time that the (stoke ) crowd was turning and if they got at stoke ,they could win the game
he said the passion and desire they showed in the second half was what he tried to re create at stoke when he was here;...but he couldn't do it ...not with the individuals at the club
I believe him ...he had people around who wanted the money without the passion and the desire
unfortunately stoke is a club where mediocrity is richly rewarded , and trying to overcome that was too much for him
stoke is a massive job and needs someone with more than a good knowledge of the game in charge
stoke has more egos than grafters
it a job for a big personality , someone who is not going to back down whether that makes or breaks us
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Mar 18, 2022 17:32:24 GMT
With him once working in the Spanish
League, you would think he would have had a hard on for Bojan.
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