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Post by Pugsley on Jul 15, 2024 15:30:19 GMT
I don't think so, we've got a load of great younger players coming through. Perhaps it was the last or penultimate tournament for Walker, Trippier, possibly Kane (although I suspect he's got another tournament in him and I'm sure he's still much better than he showed this tournament where he shouldn't really have been starting). It's not like we have a squad full of players in their 30s.
Man for man I think we have a squad as good as any other nation and there's still some quality (although perhaps out of form) players who didn't even make the squad this time around such as Grealish, Rashford, Sancho, Quansah, Braithwaite, Maddison and plenty of prospects in the u21s too. Perhaps we're missing a longer term replacement for Kane, but otherwise I think there is an abundance of quality in all positions, and I think Toney and Watkins are decent options for the next two tournaments.
We're competing for trophies and we've come very close, I think the only thing England lack is belief, in Southgate I see a man who hopes rather than one who truly believes. It was disappointing last night and will be for a while, but the future is still very bright for this squad.
Whilst I do agree with you that we have some great talent, your statement is basically the rinse and repeat after every major tournament for years. It’s not necessarily the players as such, we have had quality players for a couple of decades now. It’s the mentality that is the problem and manager changes hardly ever cut it, but equally Southgate has been a massive issue in the past 2 tournaments. It’s so similar to Stokes demise really, the players rarely the issue - there is a deep rooted issue that stops us from winning. It's a collective and the players have to take their fair share of responsibility. Give a footballer an inkling of an excuse and he will take take it. The deep routed issue is that johnny foreigner have better footballers. It's only in recent years we've seen English players perform better on a world stage and that's down to St Georges Park and the current manager and coaches. We still haven't got a Kroos, Modric, Rhodri, Ruiz type who can dictate games. The latter two have been unreal this tournament. We've plenty of number 8's 10's etc.. We're always lacking somewhere.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 15, 2024 15:31:19 GMT
I don't think so, we've got a load of great younger players coming through. Perhaps it was the last or penultimate tournament for Walker, Trippier, possibly Kane (although I suspect he's got another tournament in him and I'm sure he's still much better than he showed this tournament where he shouldn't really have been starting). It's not like we have a squad full of players in their 30s.
Man for man I think we have a squad as good as any other nation and there's still some quality (although perhaps out of form) players who didn't even make the squad this time around such as Grealish, Rashford, Sancho, Quansah, Braithwaite, Maddison and plenty of prospects in the u21s too. Perhaps we're missing a longer term replacement for Kane, but otherwise I think there is an abundance of quality in all positions, and I think Toney and Watkins are decent options for the next two tournaments.
We're competing for trophies and we've come very close, I think the only thing England lack is belief, in Southgate I see a man who hopes rather than one who truly believes. It was disappointing last night and will be for a while, but the future is still very bright for this squad.
Whilst I do agree with you that we have some great talent, your statement is basically the rinse and repeat after every major tournament for years. It’s not necessarily the players as such, we have had quality players for a couple of decades now. It’s the mentality that is the problem and manager changes hardly ever cut it, but equally Southgate has been a massive issue in the past 2 tournaments. It’s so similar to Stokes demise really, the players rarely the issue - there is a deep rooted issue that stops us from winning. We've had "great players" coming through for years. You'd hope they all carry on that way for another 2 and then 4 years time, but it won't happen for all of them. Rashford, Dele Alli, Greenwood and many more have come through in recent years and looked like the next big thing, only for certain things to derail them. You never know what's going to happen or if a player is going to come a cropper. The only thing you can do, is make the most of your opportunities, and we haven't done that. I feel like international football hasn't been that strong for the last 10 years or so perhaps, and we've still failed to capitalise. Yes, getting to finals looks great on paper after the event and I'm not playing that down as easy, but we've choked twice at the Euros and once in the World Cup semi-final (although that one was a bit more of an unexpected run). We haven't turned up to either Euros final when both were extremely winnable games, although no embarrassment is attached to either defeat. And, for every great player we have coming through, another very good one goes the other way out the retirement door. Will Pickford, Walker, Stones, Trippier, Shaw & Kane (virtual ever presents under Southgate) be around for the 2026 World Cup, let alone the next Euros? We've obviously outperformed probably most other nations across the last four major tournaments given our consistency in getting to the latter stages, but we've still come up short where winning is concerned. I honestly don't think we have it in us to win. There will always be an obstacle in our path that others seem to get over, but not us.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 15:41:25 GMT
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Post by a on Jul 15, 2024 15:41:25 GMT
Dunno if it’s been said but I think Kane playing was a mistake. Also trying to fit Bellingham and Foden in the same team didn’t work. Foden centrally is a different proposition. Both world class but vying for the same spot didn’t work.
That being said, a final again isn’t to be sniffed at and losing to Spain is no shame. They’ve been head and shoulders the best team in this tournament.
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Post by moon on Jul 15, 2024 16:11:43 GMT
I don't think so, we've got a load of great younger players coming through. Perhaps it was the last or penultimate tournament for Walker, Trippier, possibly Kane (although I suspect he's got another tournament in him and I'm sure he's still much better than he showed this tournament where he shouldn't really have been starting). It's not like we have a squad full of players in their 30s.
Man for man I think we have a squad as good as any other nation and there's still some quality (although perhaps out of form) players who didn't even make the squad this time around such as Grealish, Rashford, Sancho, Quansah, Braithwaite, Maddison and plenty of prospects in the u21s too. Perhaps we're missing a longer term replacement for Kane, but otherwise I think there is an abundance of quality in all positions, and I think Toney and Watkins are decent options for the next two tournaments.
We're competing for trophies and we've come very close, I think the only thing England lack is belief, in Southgate I see a man who hopes rather than one who truly believes. It was disappointing last night and will be for a while, but the future is still very bright for this squad.
Whilst I do agree with you that we have some great talent, your statement is basically the rinse and repeat after every major tournament for years. It’s not necessarily the players as such, we have had quality players for a couple of decades now. It’s the mentality that is the problem and manager changes hardly ever cut it, but equally Southgate has been a massive issue in the past 2 tournaments. It’s so similar to Stokes demise really, the players rarely the issue - there is a deep rooted issue that stops us from winning. I think ultimately, that mentality has to come both from the manager and an inspirational leader on the pitch, we've rarely had both at the same time, and perhaps that's the difference separating a good team from a team capable of winning tournaments.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 16:14:34 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 15, 2024 16:14:34 GMT
To my eye the biggest difference between the teams wasn't player quality. It was a mindset about how, where and when to attack, individuals decision making was superior. Spain's press was one of the best I've ever seen. Their desire to play quickly one and two touch. They were better than tika taka Spain because they mixed it up, particularly out wide. I'd bet the number of forward passes as a percentage of possession was higher. That domination of the ball makes it difficult to get behind them in numbers. Other than a couple of notable examples we were ponderous and robotic. You've just described a better team with better players!
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Post by flea79 on Jul 15, 2024 16:23:01 GMT
Cant believe the FA are wanting to give him 2 more years
hopefully he walks and he can hold his head high
the last thing we want is the 10th September to come round and a packed wembley telling him his football is shit when he reverts to form against Finland
he does deserve better than that
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 15, 2024 16:44:35 GMT
To my eye the biggest difference between the teams wasn't player quality. It was a mindset about how, where and when to attack, individuals decision making was superior. Spain's press was one of the best I've ever seen. Their desire to play quickly one and two touch. They were better than tika taka Spain because they mixed it up, particularly out wide. I'd bet the number of forward passes as a percentage of possession was higher. That domination of the ball makes it difficult to get behind them in numbers. Other than a couple of notable examples we were ponderous and robotic. You've just described a better team with better players! Absolutely. England were outplayed in every department. With the possible exception of Pickford, which in itself tells a story. Spain could legitimately say they were disappointed not to have won by a bigger margin.
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i1da
Academy Starlet
Posts: 232
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Post by i1da on Jul 15, 2024 17:06:49 GMT
My 2 cents for what it’s worth: For the longest time, England have always set up trying not to lose rather than trying to win. A neutral friend of mine told me Spain would beat France 2-1 and England would squeeze through on penalties against NL. Spain would beat England 3-1 in the final. He wasn’t far wrong! Looking at the results, Spain won 7 out of 7 without needing penalties while scoring 15 goals with 5 against even though an argument could be made they had a more difficult path. England won 3 out of 7 without penalties while scoring 8 goals and conceding 6. Poles apart.
unfortunately until England go all out to win, rather than not lose, they will always achieve their goal of not winning.
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Post by skip on Jul 15, 2024 17:25:30 GMT
Like I said, there can be better available. In my mind, it doesn’t mean that they should go for them. I just think that a National team should be comprised top-to-bottom with people from that Nation. No sports do this.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 15, 2024 17:41:53 GMT
Runners-up is, of course, not that bad.
We do have to remember, though, that they still didn't win even when literally every last piece of good fortune went our way...
A soft group, a last minute equaliser v Slovakia, a win on pens v Switzerland, the most dubious of penalty decisions and a last minute winner v Netherlands and one of the easiest routes to a final ever.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 17:47:31 GMT
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Post by lordb on Jul 15, 2024 17:47:31 GMT
I just can't agree. No other major footballing nation decides that they'll just pay a foreigner to sort it out for them. What is even the point of having international football in that case? We could go all-in on the Premier League model and just offer the best foreign players tens of millions of pounds to play for England instead. As for 'we might win something', better England squads than this have performed far worse at major tournaments under significantly more high profile managers, including Capello, who was arguably the best manager in the world at the time. The last six years have been an extraordinary anomaly: 1968 Third place (out of four teams) 1970 Quarter finals 1972 DNQ 1974 DNQ 1976 DNQ 1978 DNQ 1980 Group Stage 1982 Second group stage 1984 DNQ 1986 Quarter finals 1988 Group Stage 1990 Semi finals 1992 Group Stage 1994 DNQ 1996 Semi-finals 1998 Second round 2000 Group Stage 2002 Quarter finals 2004 Quarter finals 2006 Quarter finals 2008 DNQ 2010 Second round 2012 Quarter finals 2014 Group Stage 2016 Second round 2018 Semi finals 2020 Final 2022 Quarter finals 2024 Final I think it's fascinating to see the opprobrium aimed at Southgate when you compare his record to the (rightly) beloved Bobby Robson. Robson did not have the array of talent of this current crop. The critism aimed at southgate is justified because with the tools he has at his disposal what he achieves is bare minimum. his conservatism and at time misplaced loyalty to certain players is what has cost us. history may be kinder to him but atm every pundit and fan can see what is wrong but he is to stubborn to change. 1-1 spain are wobbling and we ease off just aiming for extra time. so unispiring The 1988 squad was as good as this one, we lost every game
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England
Jul 15, 2024 17:49:02 GMT
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a and cdf like this
Post by lordb on Jul 15, 2024 17:49:02 GMT
We'd be daft not to at least enquire if Klopp wants it or not. Definitely should ask Be daft to expect a yes though Undoubtedly some would say no to him as he's lost a fair few finals himself He'd be very good, just can't see it
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Post by a on Jul 15, 2024 18:04:34 GMT
Not that it's the major issue - but another report of Bellingham not being popular in the squad Daily Mail were saying something similar and was very arrogant ad not liked Here we go the media about to get stuck into any successful football player we’ve got ……it was never going to last was it? They hate any normal people from inner city backgrounds being successful…..Utter vermin they are Every single bit of media I’ve seen about Bellingham he comes across in incredibly well. I’m not convinced
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Post by thebasfordhedgehog on Jul 15, 2024 18:15:28 GMT
Better late than never.
Harry Kane - The invisible man 😂
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England
Jul 15, 2024 18:19:47 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Jul 15, 2024 18:19:47 GMT
To my eye the biggest difference between the teams wasn't player quality. It was a mindset about how, where and when to attack, individuals decision making was superior. Spain's press was one of the best I've ever seen. Their desire to play quickly one and two touch. They were better than tika taka Spain because they mixed it up, particularly out wide. I'd bet the number of forward passes as a percentage of possession was higher. That domination of the ball makes it difficult to get behind them in numbers. Other than a couple of notable examples we were ponderous and robotic. You've just described a better team with better players! Or with equal players in a system that doesn't allow them to use all their attributes.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 18:22:17 GMT
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Post by smallthorner on Jul 15, 2024 18:22:17 GMT
Runners-up is, of course, not that bad. We do have to remember, though, that they still didn't win even when literally every last piece of good fortune went our way... A soft group, a last minute equaliser v Slovakia, a win on pens v Switzerland, the most dubious of penalty decisions and a last minute winner v Netherlands and one of the easiest routes to a final ever. Have to agree. We were fortunate to progress to the final let's be honest. Some of our football was awful. Foden and Rice big disappointments. Kane knackered. Palmer criminally underutilised.. Bellingham flattered to deceive somewhat. What a shame.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 15, 2024 18:24:32 GMT
I'm not sure it's the actual results that people have a problem with - its the perception that Southgate is too cautious. If we were defeated in a glorious 4-3, would people be happier with that or if we played attacking football but still got knocked out in the QF by a stubborn team like France? - I can't see how a new manager is going to meet expectations really unless you think we are going to suddenly put teams to the sword with a bit more tactical nous.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 18:25:33 GMT
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 15, 2024 18:25:33 GMT
Whilst I do agree with you that we have some great talent, your statement is basically the rinse and repeat after every major tournament for years. It’s not necessarily the players as such, we have had quality players for a couple of decades now. It’s the mentality that is the problem and manager changes hardly ever cut it, but equally Southgate has been a massive issue in the past 2 tournaments. It’s so similar to Stokes demise really, the players rarely the issue - there is a deep rooted issue that stops us from winning. It's a collective and the players have to take their fair share of responsibility. Give a footballer an inkling of an excuse and he will take take it. The deep routed issue is that johnny foreigner have better footballers. It's only in recent years we've seen English players perform better on a world stage and that's down to St Georges Park and the current manager and coaches. We still haven't got a Kroos, Modric, Rhodri, Ruiz type who can dictate games. The latter two have been unreal this tournament. We've plenty of number 8's 10's etc.. We're always lacking somewhere. Scott Wharton. The saviour. And maybe if we hit hard reset on Kalvin Phillips he might be another option in 2 years.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 20:44:05 GMT
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Post by smallthorner on Jul 15, 2024 20:44:05 GMT
Whilst I do agree with you that we have some great talent, your statement is basically the rinse and repeat after every major tournament for years. It’s not necessarily the players as such, we have had quality players for a couple of decades now. It’s the mentality that is the problem and manager changes hardly ever cut it, but equally Southgate has been a massive issue in the past 2 tournaments. It’s so similar to Stokes demise really, the players rarely the issue - there is a deep rooted issue that stops us from winning. We've had "great players" coming through for years. You'd hope they all carry on that way for another 2 and then 4 years time, but it won't happen for all of them. Rashford, Dele Alli, Greenwood and many more have come through in recent years and looked like the next big thing, only for certain things to derail them. You never know what's going to happen or if a player is going to come a cropper. The only thing you can do, is make the most of your opportunities, and we haven't done that. I feel like international football hasn't been that strong for the last 10 years or so perhaps, and we've still failed to capitalise. Yes, getting to finals looks great on paper after the event and I'm not playing that down as easy, but we've choked twice at the Euros and once in the World Cup semi-final (although that one was a bit more of an unexpected run). We haven't turned up to either Euros final when both were extremely winnable games, although no embarrassment is attached to either defeat. And, for every great player we have coming through, another very good one goes the other way out the retirement door. Will Pickford, Walker, Stones, Trippier, Shaw & Kane (virtual ever presents under Southgate) be around for the 2026 World Cup, let alone the next Euros? We've obviously outperformed probably most other nations across the last four major tournaments given our consistency in getting to the latter stages, but we've still come up short where winning is concerned. I honestly don't think we have it in us to win. There will always be an obstacle in our path that others seem to get over, but not us. Yes. I get tittsed off with the great young players coming through mantra. I'm no big fan of Southgate but you have to give him some credit. The more I think about it the more I think that our players are just not good enough. Take them out and away from their star studded playmates from around the world in their Prem teams and most of them are lost. Where the fuck were Rice and Foden? What we would give for a Keane in his prime or a Modric or Kante. It's a mystery
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England
Jul 15, 2024 22:07:45 GMT
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a likes this
Post by madnellie on Jul 15, 2024 22:07:45 GMT
Here we go the media about to get stuck into any successful football player we’ve got ……it was never going to last was it? They hate any normal people from inner city backgrounds being successful…..Utter vermin they are Every single bit of media I’ve seen about Bellingham he comes across in incredibly well. I’m not convinced Bitter, Brummie Man City fan journos being bitter he didn’t pick their team.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 23:20:32 GMT
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 15, 2024 23:20:32 GMT
Apart from a lot of that team are world class and play for the best clubs in the world. Certainly, I think the calibre of team/club that our starting XI play for compared to the Spanish is way superior. They were a team though, they were coached. Our u21s are the current u21 Euro Champions Foden won an u20 World Cup. The players are generally the best. The manager we have should struggle to get a job in League One. Agree with this. I think we got to where we are because of the players and not the manager. The shrinking back into ourselves after we equalised was so infuriating. We were on the front foot, with momentum and he completely stifled it. We have one of, if not the best squads in world football with talent in every position. A stronger coach would have us winning trophies. Southgate must go now. Be careful what you wish for. I honestly think we're far more likely to regress and go back to losing in the group stages or the second round. He didn't instruct Walker to throw the ball idiotically back to the defence did he? That was on the players. Not sure how he could have managed that final much differently - maybe started Watkins and Palmer but hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 15, 2024 23:26:25 GMT
Not that it's the major issue - but another report of Bellingham not being popular in the squad Daily Mail were saying something similar and was very arrogant ad not liked Here we go the media about to get stuck into any successful football player we’ve got ……it was never going to last was it? They hate any normal people from inner city backgrounds being successful…..Utter vermin they are You fucking said it. Fuck the media. Absolute scum. They love failure and lap it up. Horrible bastards completely lacking in decency.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 23:26:44 GMT
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Post by mickstupp on Jul 15, 2024 23:26:44 GMT
Agree with this. I think we got to where we are because of the players and not the manager. The shrinking back into ourselves after we equalised was so infuriating. We were on the front foot, with momentum and he completely stifled it. We have one of, if not the best squads in world football with talent in every position. A stronger coach would have us winning trophies. Southgate must go now. Be careful what you wish for. I honestly think we're far more likely to regress and go back to losing in the group stages or the second round. He didn't instruct Walker to throw the ball idiotically back to the defence did he? That was on the players. Not sure how he could have managed that final much differently - maybe started Watkins and Palmer but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Southgate will resign and be reinstated within four years when his replacement Johnny Foreigner turns out to be shite.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 15, 2024 23:33:27 GMT
Here we go the media about to get stuck into any successful football player we’ve got ……it was never going to last was it? They hate any normal people from inner city backgrounds being successful…..Utter vermin they are You fucking said it. Fuck the media. Absolute scum. They love failure and lap it up. Horrible bastards completely lacking in decency. Yeah, tell you what is winding me up, all these ex-England players who themselves achieved fuck all at international level lecturing on what the current crop should do. Sutton, Ferdinand, Richards et al.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 15, 2024 23:39:24 GMT
You fucking said it. Fuck the media. Absolute scum. They love failure and lap it up. Horrible bastards completely lacking in decency. Yeah, tell you what is winding me up, all these ex-England players who themselves achieved fuck all at international level lecturing on what the current crop should do. Sutton, Ferdinand, Richards et al. Exactly. Failures. Every fucking one of them. And nowhere near as good as the current team. Just fuck off you twats.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 15, 2024 23:39:52 GMT
Be careful what you wish for. I honestly think we're far more likely to regress and go back to losing in the group stages or the second round. He didn't instruct Walker to throw the ball idiotically back to the defence did he? That was on the players. Not sure how he could have managed that final much differently - maybe started Watkins and Palmer but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Southgate will resign and be reinstated within four years when his replacement Johnny Foreigner turns out to be shite. I suspect so, that said I do think Southgate should step down now for his own sake and let someone new take the team forward. I think the negativity will continue otherwise like it had in the earlier stages of this tournament which helps nobody. Regardless, whoever comes in must maintain the kind of environment around the group that Southgate helped to foster. If we lose that then we really are back to square one in my opinion. That's why I'd prefer someone like Carsley or Cooper I think.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 15, 2024 23:43:22 GMT
Sol Campbell alert 🚨
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England
Jul 16, 2024 6:20:36 GMT
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Post by lordb on Jul 16, 2024 6:20:36 GMT
Howe, Gerrard and Lampard being linked with the job
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England
Jul 16, 2024 7:36:03 GMT
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Post by str8outtahampton on Jul 16, 2024 7:36:03 GMT
Howe, Gerrard and Lampard being linked with the job Oh my Lord: oh my Lord!
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jul 16, 2024 7:54:24 GMT
There’s only one man for the job:
BIG SAM
It is easily forgotten that he started us on the journey after the Iceland debacle that Southgate then took us on. He can return and lead us to the glory his reign looked destined to deliver after beating Slovakia at their fortress with a late Lallana goal to win 1-0 against ten men.
100% win record. Drinker of pints of wine.
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