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Post by Gawa on Oct 17, 2024 15:06:58 GMT
Seen this article on BBC today - www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd0z8gg5v14oI found this particular bullet point rather interesting: Joint protection by the US and the EU of Ukraine's critical natural resources and joint use of their economic potential.I thought we were defending Ukraines soverignity due to Russian aggression. We have no right to their natural resources. Russia don’t have a right to them either. As far as I'm aware there was no terms in the Istanbul Communiqué which allowed Russia to economically benefit from Ukranian natural resources. It's a shame that there aren't more natural resources in Palestine. Maybe if there were we would suddenly care about "aggression" there. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 15:27:21 GMT
Ukraine are not going to beat Russia, it's plainly obvious. Why do you think that? What evidence are you using? I honestly don't understand how someone can look at russia's resources vs what we could easily supply Ukraine and think that. The only way the bloodshed ends is by sitting round a table (in much the same way every other modern war ends). Trump will make an effort to do that. He's erratic so your guess is as good as mine as to his negotiation points but personally I'd be looking at something along the lines of formally conceding Crimea (which has a complex history with Ukraine anyway) and a commitment to remove all Nato presence from Ukraine. I'd also agree to cancel the Ukraine application to the join the EU. In return Russia hands over all other territory, leaves Ukraine with immediate effect. If I was a betting man then I'd say Putin would request some kind of pro Russian governing body running the captured Eastern Ukraine Territories in order to claim he's "preserving the Russian language" etc. But if it remains Ukrainian territory then it's kind of a win for both parties (which is the key here). In any negotiation both parties need to appear like they've won. Do you know what Putin's demands are for a ceasefire and to even begin negotiations? How do you get Putin to sit down and negotiate? Seriously mate, please try to think through week-by-week what would actually happen. Will Putin go for peace and give up on conquering more of Ukraine just because you've made it easier for him? Honestly, to me the analogy would be arguing that the RAF should be disbanded and we should stop making tanks in 1940 because then Hitler would negotiate and withdraw from France and Poland if we let him keep Sudetenland. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 15:55:16 GMT
I work in IT sales negotiation not war negotiation so who knows if the above is feasible, but you asked. Oh and maybe that's why we see things differently. If you're used to negotiations being about selling stuff - people can come to you or you can go looking for people. If they're not interested you can move on and it's ok. This situation is that there is a group of thugs who've broken into your house with guns, they fired a ton of bullets and they're down to a couple of magazines left. They've taken over your living room and they're raping your daughter in there and pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby. They're demanding that you give up the downstairs, where two of your other kids are trapped, and the stairs and upstairs landing. You've got weapons to keep them out of the rest of the house so they're stuck. Your neighbour's negotiation plan is that you and your family cancel the massive ammo delivery that's on the way and throw your guns out of the window so now you've each got a small knife. Then... somehow the thugs will be nice and leave the living room if you just agree that they can have the driveway? |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 16:04:09 GMT
Here's an example of what's happened at the russian 22nd storage base, pre-war and then early 2024. It shows a lot of things that I think are important.
1) One of only 4 bases with garages. How full were they? That's one of the biggest uncertainties in the war IMO. 2) It had russia's top level tank: the T-80. 75% are visibly gone. 3) The remaining tanks are mostly in the bottom right. Those tanks appeared before 2011 and haven't moved since. Some are T-80Us that use Ukrainian engines. It looks like they've just been left there with minimal care or maintenance for 13+ years. Are they going to be cheap and easy to fix up and go? I kinda doubt it.
4) There were also BMP Infantry Fighting Vehicles. Across all storage bases, 90% of the ones outside garages are gone. 2.4k removed, 238 remained on the last pictures we have. But the pictures are out-of-date, so it's probably fewer now.
Putin has gambled everything on looking strong, trying to persuade people that russia can't lose. He needs the West to capitulate before the soviet metal runs out.
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Post by Gabrielzakuaniandjuliet on Oct 17, 2024 16:37:53 GMT
I work in IT sales negotiation not war negotiation so who knows if the above is feasible, but you asked. Oh and maybe that's why we see things differently. If you're used to negotiations being about selling stuff - people can come to you or you can go looking for people. If they're not interested you can move on and it's ok. This situation is that there is a group of thugs who've broken into your house with guns, they fired a ton of bullets and they're down to a couple of magazines left. They've taken over your living room and they're raping your daughter in there and pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby. They're demanding that you give up the downstairs, where two of your other kids are trapped, and the stairs and upstairs landing. You've got weapons to keep them out of the rest of the house so they're stuck. Your neighbour's negotiation plan is that you and your family cancel the massive ammo delivery that's on the way and throw your guns out of the window so now you've each got a small knife. Then... somehow the thugs will be nice and leave the living room if you just agree that they can have the driveway? Did you get the living room analogy from Stephen Kotkin? I like him quite a lot |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 16:41:31 GMT
Oh and maybe that's why we see things differently. If you're used to negotiations being about selling stuff - people can come to you or you can go looking for people. If they're not interested you can move on and it's ok. This situation is that there is a group of thugs who've broken into your house with guns, they fired a ton of bullets and they're down to a couple of magazines left. They've taken over your living room and they're raping your daughter in there and pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby. They're demanding that you give up the downstairs, where two of your other kids are trapped, and the stairs and upstairs landing. You've got weapons to keep them out of the rest of the house so they're stuck. Your neighbour's negotiation plan is that you and your family cancel the massive ammo delivery that's on the way and throw your guns out of the window so now you've each got a small knife. Then... somehow the thugs will be nice and leave the living room if you just agree that they can have the driveway? Did you get the living room analogy from Stephen Kotkin? I like him quite a lot No I didn't! Not sure whether I recognise the name or not. (EDIT: just googled him, don't recognise the face but I've read some Hoover Institution stuff so maybe he got quoted?) I'd heard similar stories but couldn't remember exactly what they were. Btw you posted previously about my use of Hitler-Putin analogies. I don't remember if I responded on that, but I don't think they're exactly the same. They're alike enough in some important ways that I think the comparison can be useful. I think Putin's #1 goal is to stay in power, followed by #2 reinstate the russian empire. Facing defeat in Ukraine, he would have to fight to stay in power but he'd give up a bit on goal #2. |
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Post by hcstokie on Oct 17, 2024 17:20:16 GMT
Russia don’t have a right to them either. As far as I'm aware there was no terms in the Istanbul Communiqué which allowed Russia to economically benefit from Ukranian natural resources. It's a shame that there aren't more natural resources in Palestine. Maybe if there were we would suddenly care about "aggression" there. You don’t need terms in an agreement to benefit from them if you continually expand your control over areas where they are located. Ukraine’s resources would be a key motivating factor behind the Russian invasion, so to use them as a reason to disparage an ally supporting Ukraine (especially against a supposed competing global superpower) is somewhat hypocritical. If you think allowing Russia (or any country for that matter) to hold a large percentage of the world hostage over grain supply, as well as the natural resources that Ukraine possesses, is a good position to be in then you need your head looking at. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 17:29:07 GMT
I work in IT sales negotiation not war negotiation so who knows if the above is feasible, but you asked. Oh and maybe that's why we see things differently. If you're used to negotiations being about selling stuff - people can come to you or you can go looking for people. If they're not interested you can move on and it's ok. This situation is that there is a group of thugs who've broken into your house with guns, they fired a ton of bullets and they're down to a couple of magazines left. They've taken over your living room and they're raping your daughter in there and pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby. They're demanding that you give up the downstairs, where two of your other kids are trapped, and the stairs and upstairs landing. You've got weapons to keep them out of the rest of the house so they're stuck. Your neighbour's negotiation plan is that you and your family cancel the massive ammo delivery that's on the way and throw your guns out of the window so now you've each got a small knife. Then... somehow the thugs will be nice and leave the living room if you just agree that they can have the driveway? Wrong, thugs come and break into your house armed and you let them take what they want on the provision they stop pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby and don't take hostages. Because guess what, they don't want the baby teeth or hostages, they want the jewellery. What you don't do is try and attack them unless you know with 100% certainty you can win because you'll end up dead. I sense you've gone to deep and entrenched in this Ukraine stuff now mate that I fear you are losing an element of rationality on the issue, which is a shame. Rest assured, if we carry on arming Ukraine and pretending to be making a meaningful difference then this war isn't ending. Can't you see that? Similar to the Gaza war, the only way that ends is when we stop arming Israel. The violence stops and then people start sitting round a table. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 17:30:40 GMT
Wrong, thugs come and break into your house armed and you let them take what they want on the provision they stop pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby and don't take hostages. Because guess what, they don't want the baby teeth or hostages, they want the jewellery. What you don't do is try and attack them unless you know with 100% certainty you can win because you'll end up dead. I sense you've gone to deep and entrenched in this Ukraine stuff now mate that I fear you are losing an element of rationality on the issue, which is a shame. Rest assured, if we carry on arming Ukraine and pretending to be making a meaningful difference then this war isn't ending. Can't you see that? Similar to the Gaza war, the only way that ends is when we stop arming Israel. The violence stops and then people start sitting round a table. Why do you think Russia will just leave? Do you know what Putin's preconditions for a ceasefire and talks were? Do you know what the russian demands are? Why not choose victory? How does disarming the defender make peace? |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 18:04:49 GMT
Wrong, thugs come and break into your house armed and you let them take what they want on the provision they stop pulling the teeth out of your defenceless baby and don't take hostages. Because guess what, they don't want the baby teeth or hostages, they want the jewellery. What you don't do is try and attack them unless you know with 100% certainty you can win because you'll end up dead. I sense you've gone to deep and entrenched in this Ukraine stuff now mate that I fear you are losing an element of rationality on the issue, which is a shame. Rest assured, if we carry on arming Ukraine and pretending to be making a meaningful difference then this war isn't ending. Can't you see that? Similar to the Gaza war, the only way that ends is when we stop arming Israel. The violence stops and then people start sitting round a table. Why do you think Russia will just leave? Do you know what Putin's preconditions for a ceasefire and talks were? Do you know what the russian demands are? Why not choose victory? How does disarming the defender make peace? No, in the same way we don't know what Ukraine's demands are. I wouldn't worry, you'll get your wish with shit head Starmer and clueless Kamala running the West. A Kamala victory guarantees at least another 5 years of war and thousands of dead Ukrainians (and Russians, but apparently they don't matter). Why anyone would want prolonged death, war and misery is beyond me. |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 17, 2024 18:15:51 GMT
As far as I'm aware there was no terms in the Istanbul Communiqué which allowed Russia to economically benefit from Ukranian natural resources. It's a shame that there aren't more natural resources in Palestine. Maybe if there were we would suddenly care about "aggression" there. You don’t need terms in an agreement to benefit from them if you continually expand your control over areas where they are located. Ukraine’s resources would be a key motivating factor behind the Russian invasion, so to use them as a reason to disparage an ally supporting Ukraine (especially against a supposed competing global superpower) is somewhat hypocritical. If you think allowing Russia(or any country for that matter) to hold a large percentage of the world hostage over grain supply, as well as the natural resources that Ukraine possesses, then you need your head looking at. Your first paragraph alludes that this all began with an invasion and ignore the events which preluded said invasion. I don't even know why you keep talking about Russia. It's the US and EU who are going to economically benefit from Ukraines natural resources not Russia. Is it OK for them to hold the world hostage over natural resources? I see parallels between the Pinochet coup and the Ukraine coup. With Zelensky being one of the Kyiv Boys rather than the Chicago boys. And guess who coincidently also makes lots of money from Chiles natural resources? Hint - It isn't Russia. Edit: The Pinochet comparison is probably an exaggeration if I'm honest. But do you think Ukranian families who have lost sons, brothers and dads and come out of this conflict finding their most profitable resources are shared with the US/EU are going to think they're better off than they were 15 years ago? If Ukraine win this war the biggest beneficiaries will be the western allies. And so I feel I was right to query our intentions and motives. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 18:21:35 GMT
No, in the same way we don't know what Ukraine's demands are. Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 18:42:32 GMT
No, in the same way we don't know what Ukraine's demands are. Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. |
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Post by lordb on Oct 17, 2024 18:58:02 GMT
Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. Because it's pointless You can't negotiate with Putin |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 19:18:12 GMT
Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. Ok you say no. Then Putin continues to attack. What do you do now? |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 19:36:58 GMT
No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. Ok you say no. Then Putin continues to attack. What do you do now? As I was once told by a man far wiser than me... The negotiation process only starts when someone says no. All that is currently happening is fuel is being chucked onto an already enraged fire (similar to the Middle East). Do you really think that Starmer, Macron and Kamala are going to end the war in Ukraine with their current strategy?! Such a suggestion is mythical. |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 17, 2024 20:29:44 GMT
No, in the same way we don't know what Ukraine's demands are. Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? This was the initial treaty which Ukraine and Russia came to in Instanbul - faridaily.substack.com/p/ukraines-10-point-planA key part is also this: Proposal 7: The treaty provisionally applies from the date it is signed by Ukraine and all or most guarantor-states. The treaty enters force after (1) Ukraine’s permanently neutral status is approved in a nationwide referendumI'm not sure if there is any referendum or public say in Ukraines current plans. |
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Post by georgeberrysafro on Oct 17, 2024 20:31:30 GMT
Putin's demands for a ceasefire are that Ukraine withdraw from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson, and guarantee no attempt to join NATO. Then they will allow negotiations. E.g. source. If Ukraine hands over all its defensive lines and millions of people. So you're in charge of Ukraine, do you agree to that? No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. You post some serioulsy misinformed poorly researched crap. Define the 'West' as you only seem to ever reference the US and the UK? (but that seems just so you can push your agenda like usual) - we have quite a few others countries in the West - and most have actually been involved in peace negociations. There have being various peace negotiations with Russia and the Ukraine with officials from other countries in the 'West' U.S. since the war started. Even a peace conference in June this year with representatives from 92 nations. Putin doesn't want peace or to negociate - when something has been close he's changed the conditions. He wants Trump in so he can use the orange clown to get what he wants. Oh and also if you do some actual resarch you'll find there were wars and also terrorist attacks under his watch depsite the lies he continualluy repeats about this...and Trump killing the Iran nuclear deal was one of his biggest failures (and he has a looooong list). In January 2024, Putin again made statements which suggested, according to the Institute for the Study of War, that his "maximalist objectives in Ukraine" remained unchanged, "which are tantamount to full Ukrainian and Western surrender". He again called for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government.[29] Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of Ukraine |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 20:38:42 GMT
No, but he doesn't expect Ukraine to ever agree to that. It's a starting point that is intentionally unrealistic. That's where something called negotiation comes in. The West hasn't made any effort to negotiate. You post some serioulsy misinformed poorly researched crap. Define the 'West' as you only seem to ever reference the US and the UK? (but that seems just so you can push your agenda like usual) - we have quite a few others countries in the West - and most have actually been involved in peace negociations. There have being various peace negotiations with Russia and the Ukraine with officials from other countries in the 'West' U.S. since the war started. Even a peace conference in June this year with representatives from 92 nations. Putin doesn't want peace or to negociate - when something has been close he's changed the conditions. He wants Trump in so he can use the orange clown to get what he wants. Oh and also if you do some actual resarch you'll find there were wars and also terrorist attacks under his watch depsite the lies he continualluy repeats about this...and Trump killing the Iran nuclear deal was one of his biggest failures (and he has a looooong list). In January 2024, Putin again made statements which suggested, according to the Institute for the Study of War, that his "maximalist objectives in Ukraine" remained unchanged, "which are tantamount to full Ukrainian and Western surrender". He again called for the overthrow of the Ukrainian government.[29] Peace negotiations in the Russian invasion of UkraineWrong - You, my friend, appear to post some seriously misinformed horseshit so I'd strongly recommend covering yourself before being critical of anyone who questions your delusional desire to prolong war and mass slaughter. So before we take this any further, did you actually research who attended and who DID NOT attend the 2024 "peace conference"? Just slamming in a Wikipedia article isn't doing you any favours. Lazy and ill informed 😊 |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 20:50:09 GMT
Ok you say no. Then Putin continues to attack. What do you do now? As I was once told by a man far wiser than me... The negotiation process only starts when someone says no. All that is currently happening is fuel is being chucked onto an already enraged fire (similar to the Middle East). Do you really think that Starmer, Macron and Kamala are going to end the war in Ukraine with their current strategy?! Such a suggestion is mythical. Zelenskyy has already said no, so does that mean negotiations already started? You're Ukraine, what do you propose Ukraine offers up now? I get it, you want peace and that's really noble, but demanding the disarmament of the democracy and trying to help kill enough Ukrainians so they surrender to the violent imperialists doesn't achieve that. I think if Western aid had followed the original Biden plan and Europe continues on the good end of the announced plans then Ukraine is more likely to win than lose. I don't know how anyone could look into the details and think otherwise. Ofc it's uncertain, there could be a big surprise (I have a few in mind), but Ukrainian victory is the cheapest, least bloody way to end this and the only way to lasting peace. Why not go for likely victory instead of all the bloodshed needed to force a Ukrainian surrender and setting up the next invasion? |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 21:54:29 GMT
As I was once told by a man far wiser than me... The negotiation process only starts when someone says no. All that is currently happening is fuel is being chucked onto an already enraged fire (similar to the Middle East). Do you really think that Starmer, Macron and Kamala are going to end the war in Ukraine with their current strategy?! Such a suggestion is mythical. Zelenskyy has already said no, so does that mean negotiations already started? You're Ukraine, what do you propose Ukraine offers up now? I get it, you want peace and that's really noble, but demanding the disarmament of the democracy and trying to help kill enough Ukrainians so they surrender to the violent imperialists doesn't achieve that. I think if Western aid had followed the original Biden plan and Europe continues on the good end of the announced plans then Ukraine is more likely to win than lose. I don't know how anyone could look into the details and think otherwise. Ofc it's uncertain, there could be a big surprise (I have a few in mind), but Ukrainian victory is the cheapest, least bloody way to end this and the only way to lasting peace. Why not go for likely victory instead of all the bloodshed needed to force a Ukrainian surrender and setting up the next invasion? I'd be giving up Crimea. It's gotta go. Nearly all Crimeans want to be part of Russia and historically it is part of Russia. Concede Crimea, accept Russian proposals re Nato and the EU and move on. I think Trump will apply pressure for something along these lines. Sometimes in life you gotta be cruel to be kind. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 17, 2024 22:42:00 GMT
I'd be giving up Crimea. It's gotta go. Nearly all Crimeans want to be part of Russia and historically it is part of Russia. Concede Crimea, accept Russian proposals re Nato and the EU and move on. I think Trump will apply pressure for something along these lines. Sometimes in life you gotta be cruel to be kind. Ok now you've just told Putin you're willing to surrender land. Why will he magically stop now? He says no deal. Retreat from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson before a ceasefire can start and negotiations will begin. What do you do? Also - how do you know most Crimeans support being part of Russia? They voted to join Ukraine and pre-2014 polling had a minority wanting to be in Russia. Also, if we're taking history as extremely important, then Kuban is Ukrainian and should be returned. Rostov should be a Ukrainian city. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 17, 2024 22:58:08 GMT
I'd be giving up Crimea. It's gotta go. Nearly all Crimeans want to be part of Russia and historically it is part of Russia. Concede Crimea, accept Russian proposals re Nato and the EU and move on. I think Trump will apply pressure for something along these lines. Sometimes in life you gotta be cruel to be kind. Ok now you've just told Putin you're willing to surrender land. Why will he magically stop now? He says no deal. Retreat from Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, Kherson before a ceasefire can start and negotiations will begin. What do you do? Also - how do you know most Crimeans support being part of Russia? They voted to join Ukraine and pre-2014 polling had a minority wanting to be in Russia. Also, if we're taking history as extremely important, then Kuban is Ukrainian and should be returned. Rostov should be a Ukrainian city. They had a fairly conclusive referendum in Crimea mate. And you cant just carry on the debate with straw man's because I can do the same back. What if he agreed? Or what if he agreed in principle but said "I want Greenland as well"? Mark my words. Eventually this ghastly war will get settled by a negotiation. Happy for you to keep cheering on crazy Kamala and Starmageddon in their attempts to prolong the war but one day, you will see I was right 😊 |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 18, 2024 1:12:39 GMT
They had a fairly conclusive referendum in Crimea mate. And you cant just carry on the debate with straw man's because I can do the same back. What if he agreed? Or what if he agreed in principle but said "I want Greenland as well"? Mark my words. Eventually this ghastly war will get settled by a negotiation. Happy for you to keep cheering on crazy Kamala and Starmageddon in their attempts to prolong the war but one day, you will see I was right 😊 Do you believe Russia allows free and fair voting? You honestly believe that Putin will just drop his demands if only we disarm Ukraine. Make it easy for him to take everything and suddenly he'll basically give up? The russian constitution says that Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are Russia. You think he'll change it if we just cut Ukraine off at the knees? I think it's an utterly brain-dead take. Of course there will be negotiations to end his ghastly, unprovoked war of russian aggression. The question is whether we give Ukraine the tools to save its people or we don't, and follow trump's plan of helping Russia to slaughter so many innocent Ukrainians that their will breaks. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 18, 2024 1:21:28 GMT
They had a fairly conclusive referendum in Crimea mate. And you cant just carry on the debate with straw man's because I can do the same back. What if he agreed? Or what if he agreed in principle but said "I want Greenland as well"? Mark my words. Eventually this ghastly war will get settled by a negotiation. Happy for you to keep cheering on crazy Kamala and Starmageddon in their attempts to prolong the war but one day, you will see I was right 😊 Do you believe Russia allows free and fair voting? You honestly believe that Putin will just drop his demands if only we disarm Ukraine. Make it easy for him to take everything and suddenly he'll basically give up? The russian constitution says that Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia are Russia. You think he'll change it if we just cut Ukraine off at the knees? I think it's an utterly brain-dead take. Of course there will be negotiations to end his ghastly, unprovoked war of russian aggression. The question is whether we give Ukraine the tools to save its people or we don't, and follow trump's plan of helping Russia to slaughter so many innocent Ukrainians that their will breaks. But you're literally burying innocent Ukrainians with your concept of arming them. Why would you do that? I've quite clearly laid out what I'd do and I quite clearly do not suggest Ukraine disarms. We are going round in circles here and to be honest it's quite a boring debate because we both roughly want the same outcome - Your means to getting there is going to fail but that's up to you. I do believe you are so deeply entrenched in the Ukraine camp that it's starting to sound a little irrational. |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 18, 2024 1:34:56 GMT
We are going round in circles here and to be honest it's quite a boring debate because we both roughly want the same outcome - Your means to getting there is going to fail but that's up to you. I do believe you are so deeply entrenched in the Ukraine camp that it's starting to sound a little irrational. There's a couple of questions we didn't resolve. 1) would you support fully arming Ukraine while asking for them to negotiate? 2) why are you sure Ukraine can't win? Which specific sources did you use for the info behind that? |
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 18, 2024 6:21:39 GMT
Ukraine's 46th brigade defeated another attack. I think this must be the 5th or 6th in a similar area - they claim they took out 15 armoured vehicles. The 79th brigade just north did similarly, but their video was gory. I didn't see any gore in this one...
Scary just how much is done by drones. Unbelievable quantities of them.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 18, 2024 6:33:23 GMT
Just some update stats...
A year ago Russia launched its huge offensive with all the best equipment the soviet warehouses had. They have conquered 1,800 sq km including three major fortresses: Avdiivka (old population 32k), Niu York (10k) and Vulhedar (14k). A couple more are in danger, namely Toretsk and Chasiv Yar.
Video-confirmed losses include 1,192 tanks, 1,401 BMP Infantry Fighting Vehicles and 553 MT-LB armoured carriers. Their storage has, in decent condition, fewer than 700 tanks, 500 BMPs and 500 MT-LBs left.
Russia's stated goal is to conquer another 28,000 sq km, much of which is far tougher. Many more fortress towns* and at least 4 cities that are bigger than anything they've managed since 2022.
So long as Ukraine doesn't suffer too many casualties and we keep aiding Ukraine, then Putin will be shitting himself as he faces defeat. He's gambled everything on tricking the west into pushing ukrainian surrender before it becomes obvious Russia has overextended. Or at least cutting aid so he can kill enough Ukrainians to break their spirit.
*including Orikhiv, Zaliznychne, Huliaipole, Velyka Novosilka, Kurakhiv, Pokrovsk, Myrnohrad, Shcherbynivka, Kostyantinivka, Siversk, Slovyansk, Kramatorsk, Yampil, Zarichne, Terny etc etc.
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Post by Gawa on Oct 18, 2024 9:57:49 GMT
www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz994d6vqe5oThe western media doesn't really report much on this stuff but I've included a rare bbc article above which has reported on it in the past. This is the reality however which has been happening for months. If this was happening to our friends and family I'm sure others would feel differently.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Oct 18, 2024 9:58:52 GMT
We are going round in circles here and to be honest it's quite a boring debate because we both roughly want the same outcome - Your means to getting there is going to fail but that's up to you. I do believe you are so deeply entrenched in the Ukraine camp that it's starting to sound a little irrational. There's a couple of questions we didn't resolve. 1) would you support fully arming Ukraine while asking for them to negotiate? 2) why are you sure Ukraine can't win? Which specific sources did you use for the info behind that? 1) Of course I'd arm Ukraine until a deal has been done. 2) Common sense mate. The war has been going for 10 fucking years and we are about as far away from an end as we've ever been. More to the point, what on earth are you seeing that makes you think an imminent Ukraine victory is in sight? |
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