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Post by leesandfordstoupe on Oct 24, 2021 10:31:29 GMT
I think Wilmot looked pretty good as a cb stand in wingback. Not a disaster at all. From the off they pushed their wingers and full backs right up to not give either our WB any space to play, teams have recognised that where we start plays and that it’s a threat. I don’t think we could play Duhaney as he wasn’t in the named squad, he could only be brought into the bench as emergency once we’d chosen replacement from the bench. Why wasn’t Duhaney on the bench in the first place? I've never seen this system work to any great effect without wingbacks who are primarily offensive players they've got to be players you'd consider for selection as out and out wingers wtf would consider Wilmot for selection as a winger? MON's comfort blanket selections starting to bite him in the arse again. Starting with his fixation with Chester.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 12:54:58 GMT
2 out of those 3 can't pass wind let alone a football Thompson’s passing has improved. All we need them to do is keep it simple and be disciplined. They don’t need to spray it 15 yards. From what I've seen over a number of years being disciplined is something of a challenge for our midfield.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 12:59:42 GMT
Thompson’s passing has improved. All we need them to do is keep it simple and be disciplined. They don’t need to spray it 15 yards. From what I've seen over a number of years being disciplined is something of a challenge for our midfield. Our failure to replace Whelan properly has been a problem for years, agreed. Of the players we currently have, the most balanced we've looked in there is with Allen and Thompson sharing the role and then having Vrancic a bit further up. One thing's for sure, playing Sawyers deeper isn't going to help.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 13:11:37 GMT
From what I've seen over a number of years being disciplined is something of a challenge for our midfield. Our failure to replace Whelan properly has been a problem for years, agreed. Of the players we currently have, the most balanced we've looked in there is with Allen and Thompson sharing the role and then having Vrancic a bit further up. One thing's for sure, playing Sawyers deeper isn't going to help. Cant agree. No team involving joe Allen will ever carry the term "balanced". I'd have sawyers over Allen 365 days per year.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 24, 2021 13:38:14 GMT
Problem is we don't really have a defensively minded midfield player, Thompson at a push, but I think he happier going forward. Whatever combination you choose it looks very Powder puff.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 13:48:02 GMT
Our failure to replace Whelan properly has been a problem for years, agreed. Of the players we currently have, the most balanced we've looked in there is with Allen and Thompson sharing the role and then having Vrancic a bit further up. One thing's for sure, playing Sawyers deeper isn't going to help. Cant agree. No team involving joe Allen will ever carry the term "balanced". I'd have sawyers over Allen 365 days per year. You don't see the lack of protection in midfield as an issue then?
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 13:48:54 GMT
Problem is we don't really have a defensively minded midfield player, Thompson at a push, but I think he happier going forward. Whatever combination you choose it looks very Powder puff. Thompson does as he's asked at least, he can be disciplined and stay deep when required.
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 24, 2021 13:49:51 GMT
I don't know if we could coach TOB into the type we need?.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:09:08 GMT
Cant agree. No team involving joe Allen will ever carry the term "balanced". I'd have sawyers over Allen 365 days per year. You don't see the lack of protection in midfield as an issue then? Allen offers no protection and sawyers offers far more with the ball and much the same without it. If Thompson is playing surely he's the screen for the back 4? He can't do anything else.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:12:24 GMT
You don't see the lack of protection in midfield as an issue then? Allen offers no protection and sawyers offers far more with the ball and much the same without it. If Thompson is playing surely he's the screen for the back 4? He can't do anything else. He can be the screen sure but you can’t have the other bloke in the deep role offering absolutely nothing in that department. They’ve got to be able to do some semblance of off the ball work. Allen is hit and miss at that I agree and when he’s bad he’s dreadful. He is at least capable of it though. Sawyers from what we’ve seen isn’t. The most balanced the midfield has looked was against West Brom, I don’t get why we wouldn’t give that set up a run of games?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:16:27 GMT
Allen offers no protection and sawyers offers far more with the ball and much the same without it. If Thompson is playing surely he's the screen for the back 4? He can't do anything else. He can be the screen sure but you can’t have the other bloke in the deep role offering absolutely nothing in that department. They’ve got to be able to do some semblance of off the ball work. Allen is hit and miss at that I agree and when he’s bad he’s dreadful. He is at least capable of it though. Sawyers from what we’ve seen isn’t. The most balanced the midfield has looked was against West Brom, I don’t get why we wouldn’t give that set up a run of games? The obvious answer is that the manager wants a team comfortable on the ball and 2 of those 3 couldn't pass wind. Our midfield remains an abomination irrespective of personnel.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:20:33 GMT
He can be the screen sure but you can’t have the other bloke in the deep role offering absolutely nothing in that department. They’ve got to be able to do some semblance of off the ball work. Allen is hit and miss at that I agree and when he’s bad he’s dreadful. He is at least capable of it though. Sawyers from what we’ve seen isn’t. The most balanced the midfield has looked was against West Brom, I don’t get why we wouldn’t give that set up a run of games? The obvious answer is that the manager wants a team comfortable on the ball and 2 of those 3 couldn't pass wind. Our midfield remains an abomination irrespective of personnel. And yet in that game they both did their jobs very well and it was arguably our best performance of the season? Prioritising ‘being comfortable on the ball’ at the total expense of any physicality or discipline in midfield is an odd thing to do and is costing us in my opinion. A balanced midfield should have both.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:33:49 GMT
The obvious answer is that the manager wants a team comfortable on the ball and 2 of those 3 couldn't pass wind. Our midfield remains an abomination irrespective of personnel. And yet in that game they both did their jobs very well and it was arguably our best performance of the season? Prioritising ‘being comfortable on the ball’ at the total expense of any physicality or discipline in midfield is an odd thing to do and is costing us in my opinion. A balanced midfield should have both. We can't field a balanced midfield and one swallow does not make a summer. We don't have a midfielder worthy of the name and I include vrancic in that. He's crap as well. Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch yet he's the fall guy for most.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:40:05 GMT
And yet in that game they both did their jobs very well and it was arguably our best performance of the season? Prioritising ‘being comfortable on the ball’ at the total expense of any physicality or discipline in midfield is an odd thing to do and is costing us in my opinion. A balanced midfield should have both. We can't field a balanced midfield and one swallow does not make a summer. We don't have a midfielder worthy of the name and I include vrancic in that. He's crap as well. Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch yet he's the fall guy for most. You may well be right that it won’t work again but why not at least try it when it worked so well? What have we got to lose? It’s the closest we can manage to a balanced midfield. Not having that Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch at all. He’s a talented footballer but in the role we’re playing him in he’s doing half a job. It’s him or Vrancic for me.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:42:42 GMT
We can't field a balanced midfield and one swallow does not make a summer. We don't have a midfielder worthy of the name and I include vrancic in that. He's crap as well. Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch yet he's the fall guy for most. You may well be right that it won’t work again but why not at least try it when it worked so well? What have we got to lose? It’s the closest we can manage to a balanced midfield. Not having that Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch at all. He’s a talented footballer but in the role we’re playing him in he’s doing half a job. It’s him or Vrancic for me. I'd play Sawyers over Vrancic and Allen. Thompson, Sawyers and 1 other for me, whoever that may be.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:46:37 GMT
You may well be right that it won’t work again but why not at least try it when it worked so well? What have we got to lose? It’s the closest we can manage to a balanced midfield. Not having that Sawyers is the best of a bad bunch at all. He’s a talented footballer but in the role we’re playing him in he’s doing half a job. It’s him or Vrancic for me. I'd play Sawyers over Vrancic and Allen. Thompson, Sawyers and 1 other for me, whoever that may be. You’ve been fairly complimentary about Allen previously this season Dave, have the last couple of games put you off him completely again?
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:51:09 GMT
I'd play Sawyers over Vrancic and Allen. Thompson, Sawyers and 1 other for me, whoever that may be. You’ve been fairly complimentary about Allen previously this season Dave, have the last couple of games put you off him completely again? He's wank and it's been 3 games not a couple. He has a good game every now and then but hes largely crap and has been since the day he signed. The only midfield option I'd pick Allen ahead of is Clucas who is a very special kind of crap Ps...if someone plays well I'll say they've played well irrespective of my views on them. Even Chester had a good game recently. Can't remember who against. Maybe that was WBA as well.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:53:36 GMT
You’ve been fairly complimentary about Allen previously this season Dave, have the last couple of games put you off him completely again? He's wank and it's been 3 games not a couple. He has a good game every now and then but hes largely crap and has been since the day he signed. The only midfield option I'd pick Allen ahead of is Clucas who is a very special kind of crap Ps...if someone plays well I'll say they've played well irrespective of my views on them. Even Chester had a good game recently. Can't remember who against. Maybe that was WBA as well. What was the third game? You said he was good against Sheffield United?
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 24, 2021 14:57:20 GMT
Harsh but fair Dave, our midfield hasn't looked balanced from the go this season, if you pick the 3 we did yesterday, you have Sawyers and Vrancic who are pretty much 'floaty' types and hardly make a tackle and Allen who just can't tackle. Sawyers for me has to play because he can create in spells. In all honesty it's a bit of a mess and going to be difficult making a solid 3 whatever personnel you go with..
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 14:57:34 GMT
He's wank and it's been 3 games not a couple. He has a good game every now and then but hes largely crap and has been since the day he signed. The only midfield option I'd pick Allen ahead of is Clucas who is a very special kind of crap Ps...if someone plays well I'll say they've played well irrespective of my views on them. Even Chester had a good game recently. Can't remember who against. Maybe that was WBA as well. What was the third game? You said he was good against Sheffield United? I said he had a good 1st half when we didn't play particularly well as a team.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 14:58:58 GMT
What was the third game? You said he was good against Sheffield United? I said he had a good 1st half when we didn't play particularly well as a team. 'Absolutely nothing wrong with his performance today'.
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 24, 2021 15:12:59 GMT
Harsh but fair Dave, our midfield hasn't looked balanced from the go this season, if you pick the 3 we did yesterday, you have Sawyers and Vrancic who are pretty much 'floaty' types and hardly make a tackle and Allen who just can't tackle. Sawyers for me has to play because he can create in spells. In all honesty it's a bit of a mess and going to be difficult making a solid 3 whatever personnel you go with.. Vrancic gets far more stuck in than I assumed he would when he arrived. I remember him giving away a bunch of free kicks because I was just waiting for the ref to start dealing out cards to stoke players while letting them get away with everything. He's lightweight overall but just below average IMO instead of the complete uselessness I expected off the ball. On the ball he's done a lot for us.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 15:16:47 GMT
I said he had a good 1st half when we didn't play particularly well as a team. 'Absolutely nothing wrong with his performance today'. I even said he "dragged us back to get us a foothold in the game". He's still crap. Sawyers was our best midfield player at sheff utd and again yesterday.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 24, 2021 15:27:23 GMT
'Absolutely nothing wrong with his performance today'. I even said he "dragged us back to get us a foothold in the game". He's still crap. Sawyers was our best midfield player at sheff utd and again yesterday. And that he was excellent when we were on top and that you agreed with the poster that he'd played well, yes. I think Sawyers could still be a good signing for us but as you mentioned yourself before, our midfield is soft as shite generally and it's going to continue to be a problem.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Oct 24, 2021 15:48:02 GMT
I even said he "dragged us back to get us a foothold in the game". He's still crap. Sawyers was our best midfield player at sheff utd and again yesterday. And that he was excellent when we were on top and that you agreed with the poster that he'd played well, yes. I think Sawyers could still be a good signing for us but as you mentioned yourself before, our midfield is soft as shite generally and it's going to continue to be a problem. Yep and it will continue to be a problem whoever we play but I think sawyers offers many more positives v the rest of them
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Post by gingerninja on Oct 24, 2021 15:50:27 GMT
Sawyers has to play, the rest you can argue the toss about, he simply offers a range of passing and angle of pass, nobody else can see, let alone play.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 25, 2021 7:55:04 GMT
How the hell is ditching the back three going to help? We don't have a fit left back, Smith is playing well as a wingback and may be out as well and if we go with a back 4 we would need a traditional DM which we don't have. It's not as if we are getting turned over at the back - we've lost narrowly and it's individual lapses that have done us not a systemic problem with the formation.
Like it or not we've built the squad around a back five. What we need to do is make the system we've adopted work better by cutting out the lapses and taking more of our chances not revert to a system we haven't got the players for.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 25, 2021 7:59:45 GMT
How the hell is ditching the back three going to help? We don't have a fit left back, Smith is playing well as a wingback and may be out as well and if we go with a back 4 we would need a traditional DM which we don't have. It's not as if we are getting turned over at the back - we've lost narrowly and it's individual lapses that have done us not a systemic problem with the formation. Like it or not we've built the squad around a back five. What we need to do is make the system we've adopted work better by cutting out the lapses and taking more of our chances not revert to a system we haven't got the players for. Having more presence in midfield might mean we’re not in a situation where we’re having to hope ‘lapses’ - which happen to every team at some point - don’t happen to us.
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Post by numpty40 on Oct 25, 2021 8:50:45 GMT
How the hell is ditching the back three going to help? We don't have a fit left back, Smith is playing well as a wingback and may be out as well and if we go with a back 4 we would need a traditional DM which we don't have. It's not as if we are getting turned over at the back - we've lost narrowly and it's individual lapses that have done us not a systemic problem with the formation. Like it or not we've built the squad around a back five. What we need to do is make the system we've adopted work better by cutting out the lapses and taking more of our chances not revert to a system we haven't got the players for. Ditching the back 3 will help because teams like Sheff Utd and Millwall found it very easy to get behind us in wide areas resulting in at least one of our 3 centre backs being pulled out of position. I don't personally like the system, none of the top sides use it.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Oct 25, 2021 8:56:44 GMT
Ideally I still would prefer a 4231.
But I do think this works when the manager gets the midfield right.
Smith is an atrocious full back so we don’t have the right back to play 4231. Using him as a wing back hides his lack of ability to defend and helps our attacking play.
Ditto Tymon. But we do have Fox who is a good full back at this level to play left back.
And that’d be my worry with it tbh. Other than that I think it’d be fine.
But the back 3 generally has worked. It’s not the time to throw the baby out with the bath water.
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