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Post by kerouac on Jul 12, 2021 16:54:26 GMT
Southgate was found out last night. That second half was like watching us in umpteen matches.....invite a decent on for 30 minutes and they’ll score,we had no response and panic ensued. There was no panic, nothing happened, we just sleep walked into another failure. It was all there for the taking like never before. Can't believe it Even the pens....! He really fucked it there im afraid,3 young lads not used to the atmosphere, not properly in the zone and hardly had a kick of a ball etc etc....why oh why get a 19 year old youth to take THE most important kick of a football since '66?,yeah it could have gone in and we'd all be singing a different tune and feeling less shite but when poor Saka addressed the situation,all I could see was a kid shitting himself.We had net busters like Shaw and Walker ready,Grealish fancied one....perhaps someone on here knows how this happened?
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 12, 2021 16:54:35 GMT
ten reasons we should have beaten Italy without going to penalties home advantage serious injury to their best player earlier in the tourno injury to their best and only dangerous player during the match the attacking options on our bench our height advantage a fair referee (for once) the goals in our front two compared to theirs our less stressful route to the final our fewer minutes played up to the final our early goal and just one reason we didn't overly cautious and inflexible, approach We will never, ever, have a better opportunity and so i'm still gutted. Agree with everything bar the ref, he gave us absolutely fuck all in the middle of the park
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Post by redstriper on Jul 12, 2021 17:03:36 GMT
ten reasons we should have beaten Italy without going to penalties home advantage serious injury to their best player earlier in the tourno injury to their best and only dangerous player during the match the attacking options on our bench our height advantage a fair referee (for once) the goals in our front two compared to theirs our less stressful route to the final our fewer minutes played up to the final our early goal and just one reason we didn't overly cautious and inflexible, approach We will never, ever, have a better opportunity and so i'm still gutted. Agree with everything bar the ref, he gave us absolutely fuck all in the middle of the park the stats don't bear that out, he gave us 50% more free kicks than he gave them (18-12).... and he booked 5 of them to 1 of ours - i thought he was even handed. Unusually for me but i saw nothing to blame the ref about.
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Post by damagedswan on Jul 12, 2021 17:07:21 GMT
He is wrong. Southgate's mistake wasn't setting up cautiously, it was failing to respond quickly enough to a changing game situation Not mutually exclusive No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions.
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Post by redstriper on Jul 12, 2021 17:10:26 GMT
Am I right in thinking we didn't use a sub in any match before 69 minutes, and didn't use more than one sub in normal time in any game ?.... We completely failed to utilise the opportunity that five subs gives you, despite having the strongest looking bench in the entire tournament - that is damning.
It's not hindsight either, plenty of us saying this after the Scotland game.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 17:11:38 GMT
We’d been 2nd best for 25 mins of the first half and clearly needed to mix it up no longer than 60 mins Hindsight is 20/20 If they hadn’t scored that spawny goal Gareth is a genius If they hadn’t scored that spawny goal they’d have piled more pressure on and found another way through. Our defensive line was back in our own penalty area for a good 20 minutes in that second half, it was only a matter of time. We needed a much higher line but we had everyone back and no outlet to relieve the pressure.
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Post by redstriper on Jul 12, 2021 17:15:20 GMT
Strange, reading some earlier posts you’d think we got hammered last night by a far superior team. Italy couldn’t beat us in 2 hours and couldn’t score from open play. They beat us on penalties. End of. We played 7 matches, won 5, drew 2 and lost a penalty shoot out. Best result since 1966. On to Qatar….. I think it was just raw emotion post-match for a lot of people so I understand it. You really think we've any chance in 100 degree heat in Qatar with a manager who is scared to use his substitutes ?
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Post by zerps on Jul 12, 2021 17:17:29 GMT
Hindsight is 20/20 If they hadn’t scored that spawny goal Gareth is a genius If they hadn’t scored that spawny goal they’d have piled more pressure on and found another way through. Our defensive line was back in our own penalty area for a good 20 minutes in that second half, it was only a matter of time. We needed a much higher line but we had everyone back and no outlet to relieve the pressure. Sure mate. Maybe we’d have gone on to score another ten if they hadn’t scored. Have you considered that?
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Post by zerps on Jul 12, 2021 17:18:28 GMT
I think it was just raw emotion post-match for a lot of people so I understand it. You really think we've any chance in 100 degree heat in Qatar with a manager who is scared to use his substitutes ? How about you try giving credit where it’s due and not moaning constantly. You’d have moaned if we’d won it.
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Post by peterpan1 on Jul 12, 2021 17:21:22 GMT
There was no panic, nothing happened, we just sleep walked into another failure. It was all there for the taking like never before. Can't believe it Even the pens....! He really fucked it there im afraid,3 young lads not used to the atmosphere, not properly in the zone and hardly had a kick of a ball etc etc....why oh why get a 19 year old youth to take THE most important kick of a football since '66?,yeah it could have gone in and we'd all be singing a different tune and feeling less shite but when poor Saka addressed the situation,all I could see was a kid shitting himself.We had net busters like Shaw and Walker ready,Grealish fancied one....perhaps someone on here knows how this happened? Indeed, as I understand it Grealish had already volunteered. Made no sense to hand such responsibility to "cold" players.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 12, 2021 17:22:10 GMT
No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions. Not sure how what you've just said differs from Hamann's summation really. Threw it away being unnecessarily negative.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 17:22:34 GMT
No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions. The trouble with that is we’d effectively wasted a huge amount of time in the game and we were much closer to the prospect of extra time and penalties, which the Italians would take every time. We lost momentum and we didn’t make the necessary changes to regain control and to stretch Italy. At the very latest we needed to make a few subs as extra time started and really put the pressure on, instead we saved our subs with explosive pace until the very last minute of extra time.
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Post by zerps on Jul 12, 2021 17:23:02 GMT
No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions. Not sure how what you've just said differs from Hamann's summation really. Threw it away being unnecessarily negative. Didn’t lose a game being negative
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Post by redstriper on Jul 12, 2021 17:23:03 GMT
You really think we've any chance in 100 degree heat in Qatar with a manager who is scared to use his substitutes ? How about you try giving credit where it’s due and not moaning constantly. You’d have moaned if we’d won it. nope... but i'd happily have called southgate the luckiest manager in our history
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 12, 2021 17:23:29 GMT
Agree with everything bar the ref, he gave us absolutely fuck all in the middle of the park the stats don't bear that out, he gave us 50% more free kicks than he gave them (18-12).... and he booked 5 of them to 1 of ours - i thought he was even handed. Unusually for me but i saw nothing to blame the ref about. The reason for those stats is that they were dirty as fuck There were some big calls he didn't give us.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 17:23:44 GMT
If they hadn’t scored that spawny goal they’d have piled more pressure on and found another way through. Our defensive line was back in our own penalty area for a good 20 minutes in that second half, it was only a matter of time. We needed a much higher line but we had everyone back and no outlet to relieve the pressure. Sure mate. Maybe we’d have gone on to score another ten if they hadn’t scored. Have you considered that? It’s pretty difficult to score from your own half.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 12, 2021 17:23:44 GMT
I try to be an optimistic and positive person where possible. Partly in light of the past 18 months and also because I think it beats the alternative.
5 years ago we were knocked out by Iceland. Since then we have competed in a semi-final of a World Cup. After that many said this chance wouldn't come around again. 3 years later we made it to a final and between then we topped a Nations League group that included Spain and Croatia.
We weren't beaten over 90 or even 120 minutes in this competition, and conceded just 2 goals. This with a squad with an average age of just 25-26 years.
Whatever happens in Qatar happens, we should go into it full of confidence though and I'm certain that the likes of Sancho, Saka and Foden are only going to get better and better.
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Post by zerps on Jul 12, 2021 17:26:09 GMT
Sure mate. Maybe we’d have gone on to score another ten if they hadn’t scored. Have you considered that? It’s pretty difficult to score from your own half. Yet we did
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Post by damagedswan on Jul 12, 2021 17:27:28 GMT
No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions. Not sure how what you've just said differs from Hamann's summation really. Threw it away being unnecessarily negative. He was criticising Southgate's approach for the whole tournament. Not just the final. I think Southgate's approach for the tournament was spot on and he fell at the final hurdle.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 12, 2021 17:28:43 GMT
Not sure how what you've just said differs from Hamann's summation really. Threw it away being unnecessarily negative. Didn’t lose a game being negative Fine lines I know. I had major reservations about the line-up yesterday but was happy to back him because he'd got things right throughout the tournament, and he was ultimately vindicated against Germany. I think we're entitled to call it out now.
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Post by GrahamHyde on Jul 12, 2021 17:28:47 GMT
I try to be an optimistic and positive person where possible. Partly in light of the past 18 months and also because I think it beats the alternative. 5 years ago we were knocked out by Iceland. Since then we have competed in a semi-final of a World Cup. After that many said this chance wouldn't come around again. 3 years later we made it to a final and between then we topped a Nations League group that included Spain and Croatia. We weren't beaten over 90 or even 120 minutes in this competition, and conceded just 2 goals. This with a squad with an average age of just 25-26 years. Whatever happens in Qatar happens, we should go into it full of confidence though and I'm certain that the likes of Sancho, Saka and Foden are only going to get better and better. Also easy to forget that Rashford is still only 23. Rice and Mount are both 22. Phillips, Grealish and Shaw are 25. Sterling is 26. All yet to peak, and that's excluding the likes of Bellingham, Foden, Saka and Sancho who are in or barely out of their teens. In fact you can count the number of players in their 30s in this squad on the fingers of one hand I think. {EDIT: Just checked and there's 3 players, Walker, Trippier and Henderson, all early 30s so likely have at least another tournament in them}
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Post by damagedswan on Jul 12, 2021 17:30:22 GMT
No, but Hamann's series of tweets suggest he thinks being defensive throughout the tournament was the fundamental problem: 'If you play not to lose you will at some stage.' I don't think that's right. Southgate's cautious outlook set up wins, and he showed against Germany he could use that foundation to attack more towards the end of a game and win. Against Italy he was actually in the same position at 70 mins, but made the wrong (negative) substitutions. The trouble with that is we’d effectively wasted a huge amount of time in the game and we were much closer to the prospect of extra time and penalties, which the Italians would take every time. We lost momentum and we didn’t make the necessary changes to regain control and to stretch Italy. At the very latest we needed to make a few subs as extra time started and really put the pressure on, instead we saved our subs with explosive pace until the very last minute of extra time. I completely agree with what you're saying here... what I'm saying is that unlike the Germany match (when he brought Grealish on at 70 minutes) he didn't make the right subs (Saka and Henderson) to regain control last night.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 17:32:52 GMT
Not sure how what you've just said differs from Hamann's summation really. Threw it away being unnecessarily negative. He was criticising Southgate's approach for the whole tournament. Not just the final. I think Southgate's approach for the tournament was spot on and he fell at the final hurdle. I’m not sure his approach was any different in the final than it had been earlier in the tournament, the exception is the Ukraine game. Had Muller scored then the Germany game could have ended in a similar fashion, as it was they missed, we scored a second and Southgate was a hero. I think Hamann is spot on, we had a load of attacking talent on the bench who didn’t get the chance to make the difference on the pitch.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 17:35:52 GMT
The trouble with that is we’d effectively wasted a huge amount of time in the game and we were much closer to the prospect of extra time and penalties, which the Italians would take every time. We lost momentum and we didn’t make the necessary changes to regain control and to stretch Italy. At the very latest we needed to make a few subs as extra time started and really put the pressure on, instead we saved our subs with explosive pace until the very last minute of extra time. I completely agree with what you're saying here... what I'm saying is that unlike the Germany match (when he brought Grealish on at 70 minutes) he didn't make the right subs (Saka and Henderson) to regain control last night. Fullly agree, with different subs we might have won, we may also have lost due to an Italian counter attack, it is a shame we’ll never know. I’d rather see us go for it and lose to a counter attack than to risk penalties though, especially when we have far better options on the bench than the opposition does.
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Post by zerps on Jul 12, 2021 17:49:43 GMT
I’ve never seen such a bunch of whoppers as leaving Wembley last night.
A lad was knocked out cold in front of us, cars smashed up, other random fans being constantly abused. Constant fighting, bottles and half full cans being thrown into random crowds of people.
Me and my mate couldn’t believe how many dickheads were about. I’d have hated to be there with my family and I’ll take them to Stoke games. This was next level dickheadery.
Couple that with the racist abuse online afterwards and maybe England fans don’t deserve to win anything.
It did piss me off tbh.
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Post by thehoof on Jul 12, 2021 18:00:15 GMT
It’s pretty difficult to score from your own half. Yet we did Could have sworn that Shaw was actually in the Italian box when he scored (with our one shot on target). The point that the poster is making, which Is spot on is that Southgate made no change at all ( compared to Mancini’s game deciding subs) and allowed us to be pushed back and lose all momentum. We have seen the same result many times under TP with similar tactics,and it was almost a re-run of the Croatia semi final where we just seemed tactically incapable of countering a change in the opposition approach. We’ve improved under Southgate clearly, but it is about winning not being plucky losers and I’m not sure he has a winner’s mentality himself.
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Post by dirtclod on Jul 12, 2021 18:02:14 GMT
Maybe I'm just ignorant but it escapes me as to why he didn't bring in subs earlier. It's just baffling. Italy's defense could have been picked apart.
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Post by wearestoke80 on Jul 12, 2021 18:02:49 GMT
I’ve never seen such a bunch of whoppers as leaving Wembley last night. A lad was knocked out cold in front of us, cars smashed up, other random fans being constantly abused. Constant fighting, bottles and half full cans being thrown into random crowds of people. Me and my mate couldn’t believe how many dickheads were about. I’d have hated to be there with my family and I’ll take them to Stoke games. This was next level dickheadery. Couple that with the racist abuse online afterwards and maybe England fans don’t deserve to win anything. It did piss me off tbh. This is what happens when everyone starts drinking at 12 o’clock
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 18:08:15 GMT
I’ve never seen such a bunch of whoppers as leaving Wembley last night. A lad was knocked out cold in front of us, cars smashed up, other random fans being constantly abused. Constant fighting, bottles and half full cans being thrown into random crowds of people. Me and my mate couldn’t believe how many dickheads were about. I’d have hated to be there with my family and I’ll take them to Stoke games. This was next level dickheadery. Couple that with the racist abuse online afterwards and maybe England fans don’t deserve to win anything. It did piss me off tbh. This is what happens when everyone starts drinking at 12 o’clock That's not really an excuse though, is it?
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 12, 2021 18:09:11 GMT
I’ve never seen such a bunch of whoppers as leaving Wembley last night. A lad was knocked out cold in front of us, cars smashed up, other random fans being constantly abused. Constant fighting, bottles and half full cans being thrown into random crowds of people. Me and my mate couldn’t believe how many dickheads were about. I’d have hated to be there with my family and I’ll take them to Stoke games. This was next level dickheadery. Couple that with the racist abuse online afterwards and maybe England fans don’t deserve to win anything. It did piss me off tbh. Typical knuckledraggers that seem to be attracted to English football coupled with a big post covid blowout. Looks like the police completely dropped the ball too and just let people run riot. Either way, not a great look for a country which is looking at a 2030 World Cup bid.
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