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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 11:50:05 GMT
If the manager is not going to learn from this there is no point him staying
I really am sick of him taking the blame for the penalties but that is not the issue.
We have to attack more, sitting back gets you into trouble and we got out of that trouble quite often in the tournament. The night we beat Ukraine we could have done that to most teams at the tournament.
You have to look at the players we had and concentrate more on us than the oppo. Yes there is a balance but we always revert to the defensive balance.
Players like grealish must feel aggrieved. We have a great young squad with quality all over. You have to play them. I’m pretty sure ROI would play grealish to his strengths as a nailed on starter.
It’s the failure to learn from Croatia which is the biggest piss off
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 12, 2021 11:51:15 GMT
Italy could have played a lot better too, had players who under performed in periods of the game and made errors tactically. If they had played it better we could have been totally outplayed. Ifs, buts and maybes! If they had lost the pens, Mancini would have been their villain too. I think there is an arrogance in suggesting that we only lose a game because of our own shortcomings. Points may be valid but it works both ways. It always seems to be about us 'losing the games', never really considered how the other team managed to win the game.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 11:53:50 GMT
I've seen the footage of people getting into the stadium without tickets (there are a few Italian's amongst mainly English) that I think you're to, what I would say is even in that scenario what makes a grown man cowardly swing punches as someone runs past and kick someone in the head whilst on the floor? There are accounts on Twitter of Italians being attacked around Wembley and London, like there was with Danes including a family of four in full kits/face paint where the dad was attacked. I'm certainly not a wallflower and used to follow England home and away fairly regularly in the late 90's/early 2000's but honestly these absolute dick heads are just tiring beyond belief. And they're not prejudice in the sense that they will happily kick lumps out of each other as well for supporting the wrong English team. A total embarrassment..... Oh I agree, I was just pointing out that the video you suggested was footage of England fans picking off Italian fans after the match isn't what it is purported to be. We don't want revenge attacks on English fans the next time we're in Italy because of footage that has been erroneously posted by people with some separate agenda. Worryingly, it has now crossed over into some of the mainstream media, it wouldn't have been difficult to fact check the video, it's clearly daylight when it was recorded. No I understand it's right to point out that particular footage wasn't about targeting Italian fans per se. And anyone who's been to Italy to watch either England, or even the heady days of the Anglo-Italian Trophy will know how cowardly those Italian fans on scooters wielding bats and knives can be.......
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 12, 2021 11:59:23 GMT
Italy could have played a lot better too, had players who under performed in periods of the game and made errors tactically. If they had played it better we could have been totally outplayed. Ifs, buts and maybes! If they had lost the pens, Mancini would have been their villain too. I think there is an arrogance in suggesting that we only lose a game because of our own shortcomings.
Points may be valid but it works both ways. It always seems to be about us 'losing the games', never really considered how the other team managed to win the game. But he actually said ... "Roberto Mancini recognised the problem and changed the game".
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Post by knype on Jul 12, 2021 12:01:03 GMT
If the manager is not going to learn from this there is no point him staying I really am sick of him taking the blame for the penalties but that is not the issue. We have to attack more, sitting back gets you into trouble and we got out of that trouble quite often in the tournament. The night we beat Ukraine we could have done that to most teams at the tournament. You have to look at the players we had and concentrate more on us than the oppo. Yes there is a balance but we always revert to the defensive balance. Players like grealish must feel aggrieved. We have a great young squad with quality all over. You have to play them. I’m pretty sure ROI would play grealish to his strengths as a nailed on starter. It’s the failure to learn from Croatia which is the biggest piss off Spot on
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 12:13:00 GMT
If the manager is not going to learn from this there is no point him staying I really am sick of him taking the blame for the penalties but that is not the issue. We have to attack more, sitting back gets you into trouble and we got out of that trouble quite often in the tournament. The night we beat Ukraine we could have done that to most teams at the tournament. You have to look at the players we had and concentrate more on us than the oppo. Yes there is a balance but we always revert to the defensive balance. Players like grealish must feel aggrieved. We have a great young squad with quality all over. You have to play them. I’m pretty sure ROI would play grealish to his strengths as a nailed on starter. It’s the failure to learn from Croatia which is the biggest piss off
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Post by hotterpotter on Jul 12, 2021 12:15:10 GMT
Oh FFS I don't know if I blame Southgate, the players, Italy, the fans, no one, everyone, Uri Gellar, Grealish's broken sock elastic or the weather!
I'll see you around the time of the yuletide 2022 World Cup for more confusing bollocks from the England team.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 12, 2021 12:18:02 GMT
Italy could have played a lot better too, had players who under performed in periods of the game and made errors tactically. If they had played it better we could have been totally outplayed. Ifs, buts and maybes! If they had lost the pens, Mancini would have been their villain too. I think there is an arrogance in suggesting that we only lose a game because of our own shortcomings.
Points may be valid but it works both ways. It always seems to be about us 'losing the games', never really considered how the other team managed to win the game. But he actually said ... "Roberto Mancini recognised the problem and changed the game". Yes, but the assumption is that it is all very straightforward to change a game in your own favour. I just don't think it is against a team like Italy. Sounds straightforward on paper. Just because they were able to do that and put it into practice doesn't make it easy. Incidentally, they really struggled to implement their change of tactics too. It took them a long time to get into their game, much longer than they would have liked. For all their possession they got a scrambled goal for an equaliser. They dominated possession but we made it very difficult for them too. I think he brought Henderson on because at that time we needed an experienced captain like, motivating figure on the pitch and in the middle of the park. Rice, Mount and Phillips could not fulfil that role. Didn't ultimately succeed but I think that was the idea and that seemed a good shout to me at the time as it was becoming a battle of character at that phase of the game.
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Post by nott1 on Jul 12, 2021 12:37:15 GMT
Should have put Grealish on after 60 minutes Southgate is obviously no fan, he's had a raw deal all through!
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 12:45:56 GMT
But he actually said ... "Roberto Mancini recognised the problem and changed the game". Yes, but the assumption is that it is all very straightforward to change a game in your own favour. I just don't think it is against a team like Italy. Sounds straightforward on paper. Just because they were able to do that and put it into practice doesn't make it easy. Incidentally, they really struggled to implement their change of tactics too. It took them a long time to get into their game, much longer than they would have liked. For all their possession they got a scrambled goal for an equaliser. They dominated possession but we made it very difficult for them too. I think he brought Henderson on because at that time we needed an experienced captain like, motivating figure on the pitch and in the middle of the park. Rice, Mount and Phillips could not fulfil that role. Didn't ultimately succeed but I think that was the idea and that seemed a good shout to me at the time as it was becoming a battle of character at that phase of the game. Nonsense. There is no assertion that what was needed is easy. But that something was needed and that something was beyond Southgate. As it was against Croatia in 2018.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 12:47:35 GMT
If the manager is not going to learn from this there is no point him staying I really am sick of him taking the blame for the penalties but that is not the issue. We have to attack more, sitting back gets you into trouble and we got out of that trouble quite often in the tournament. The night we beat Ukraine we could have done that to most teams at the tournament. You have to look at the players we had and concentrate more on us than the oppo. Yes there is a balance but we always revert to the defensive balance. Players like grealish must feel aggrieved. We have a great young squad with quality all over. You have to play them. I’m pretty sure ROI would play grealish to his strengths as a nailed on starter. It’s the failure to learn from Croatia which is the biggest piss off Is it insanity that is the definition of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 12:48:36 GMT
If the manager is not going to learn from this there is no point him staying I really am sick of him taking the blame for the penalties but that is not the issue. We have to attack more, sitting back gets you into trouble and we got out of that trouble quite often in the tournament. The night we beat Ukraine we could have done that to most teams at the tournament. You have to look at the players we had and concentrate more on us than the oppo. Yes there is a balance but we always revert to the defensive balance. Players like grealish must feel aggrieved. We have a great young squad with quality all over. You have to play them. I’m pretty sure ROI would play grealish to his strengths as a nailed on starter. It’s the failure to learn from Croatia which is the biggest piss off “If he fails, at least fails while daring greatly” Couldn’t agree more. Sadly, not what happened yesterday.
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 12, 2021 12:56:35 GMT
Should have put Grealish on after 60 minutes Southgate is obviously no fan, he's had a raw deal all through! Has Southgate said why Grealish was introduced so late in the game? I'd have brought him on (for Mount) 10 or 15 minutes into the second half of normal time when it was clear that what had worked for us in the first half was no longer working.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 12, 2021 13:00:20 GMT
It's frustrating as England not only have a good team but more importantly, genuine game changers sat on the bench. I can forgive the second half to a degree as we just couldn't get going but Extra Time provided an opportunity to get our pacey players involved against tired legs yet bizarrely we seemed to just drift through the period like penalties were what we actually wanted.
Obviously if Rashford's penalty had crept into the corner and kept the pressure on, we may well have been celebrating Southgate's master plan but it just feels like we let Italy off the hook as good as a side as they are.
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Post by kustokie on Jul 12, 2021 13:02:42 GMT
All I have to say is well done England ad well done Gareth Southgate. I find it impossible to blame any single factor in a team that has gone further than any other team in two generations. That’s like saying Charlie Adam missing a penalty caused Stoke to get relegated. If we’d scored more goals in that game or in other games that miss would have been irrelevant. This is NOT a failure. It’s a great success and bodes well for the future.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 12, 2021 13:04:42 GMT
Yes, but the assumption is that it is all very straightforward to change a game in your own favour. I just don't think it is against a team like Italy. Sounds straightforward on paper. Just because they were able to do that and put it into practice doesn't make it easy. Incidentally, they really struggled to implement their change of tactics too. It took them a long time to get into their game, much longer than they would have liked. For all their possession they got a scrambled goal for an equaliser. They dominated possession but we made it very difficult for them too. I think he brought Henderson on because at that time we needed an experienced captain like, motivating figure on the pitch and in the middle of the park. Rice, Mount and Phillips could not fulfil that role. Didn't ultimately succeed but I think that was the idea and that seemed a good shout to me at the time as it was becoming a battle of character at that phase of the game. Nonsense. There is no assertion that what was needed is easy. But that something was needed and that something was beyond Southgate. As it was against Croatia in 2018. Something?...of course it's always any other thing that would have hypothetically succeeded when you lose. When you lose everything is a mistake and all the other options were better. I'm just not convinced, I don't think Grealish would have been effective in this game, I think Italy knew how to handle him. This Italian side are stronger than Croatia imo, and even then we didn't have players anywhere near the ability of Modric and Rakitic in the middle of the park. Somehow we seem to think we have a right to beat these teams. It wasn't beyond Southgate to get to a Final, which is better than others have ever fared with much more experienced, star players, so I'm happy to give him some credit for what he actually achieved rather than what we could have. These young players have done amazingly well at this level and the coach deserves a lot of credit for that. I'm very proud of what they have all achieved.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 13:09:10 GMT
Nonsense. There is no assertion that what was needed is easy. But that something was needed and that something was beyond Southgate. As it was against Croatia in 2018. Something?...of course it's always any other thing that would have hypothetically succeeded when you lose. When you lose everything is a mistake and all the other options were better. I'm not convinced, I don't think Grealish would have been effective in this game, I think Italy knew how to handle him. This Italian side are stronger than Croatia imo, and even then we didn't have players anywhere near the ability of Modric and Rakitic in the middle of the park. Somehow we seem to think we have a right to beat these teams. It wasn't beyond Southgate to get to a Final, which is better than others have ever fared with much more experienced, star players, so I'm happy to give him some credit for what he actually achieved rather than what we could have. These young players have done amazingly well at this level and the coach deserves a lot of credit for that. I'm very proud of what they have all achieved. Sorry to say, but Southgate is just the latest of a ridiculously long list of England Managers who has failed when faced with a big test. And this was the first big test of this tournament. As was Croatia in 2018.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2021 13:13:46 GMT
It's not that long ago failure meant not getting past group stages or not even qualifying at all, now it means losing in the final. I would say that's progress
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 13:21:00 GMT
Something?...of course it's always any other thing that would have hypothetically succeeded when you lose. When you lose everything is a mistake and all the other options were better. I'm not convinced, I don't think Grealish would have been effective in this game, I think Italy knew how to handle him. This Italian side are stronger than Croatia imo, and even then we didn't have players anywhere near the ability of Modric and Rakitic in the middle of the park. Somehow we seem to think we have a right to beat these teams. It wasn't beyond Southgate to get to a Final, which is better than others have ever fared with much more experienced, star players, so I'm happy to give him some credit for what he actually achieved rather than what we could have. These young players have done amazingly well at this level and the coach deserves a lot of credit for that. I'm very proud of what they have all achieved. Sorry to say, but Southgate is just the latest of a ridiculously long list of England Managers who has failed when faced with a big test. And this was the first big test of this tournament. As was Croatia in 2018. The German game wasn't a big test?
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Post by peterpan1 on Jul 12, 2021 13:37:01 GMT
Something?...of course it's always any other thing that would have hypothetically succeeded when you lose. When you lose everything is a mistake and all the other options were better. I'm not convinced, I don't think Grealish would have been effective in this game, I think Italy knew how to handle him. This Italian side are stronger than Croatia imo, and even then we didn't have players anywhere near the ability of Modric and Rakitic in the middle of the park. Somehow we seem to think we have a right to beat these teams. It wasn't beyond Southgate to get to a Final, which is better than others have ever fared with much more experienced, star players, so I'm happy to give him some credit for what he actually achieved rather than what we could have. These young players have done amazingly well at this level and the coach deserves a lot of credit for that. I'm very proud of what they have all achieved. Sorry to say, but Southgate is just the latest of a ridiculously long list of England Managers who has failed when faced with a big test. And this was the first big test of this tournament. As was Croatia in 2018. Couldn't agree more. We have this unusual mentality of being gallant losers in this country. Media saying its a brilliant achievement etc etc. I couldn't care less if he's looks/sounds good in interviews, is a nice bloke or does his mum's shopping. The fact is he is paid to win matches and ultimately tournaments. So far he's won the square root of fuck all. Give me a nasty bastard who gets results all day long. We've come through a relatively easy group to qualify, played at home, with fantastic fans.... It even pissed down for the occasion and still we can't put it to bed. If he takes us to next years World Cup, expect an early flight home for the team.
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Post by tuum on Jul 12, 2021 13:37:57 GMT
A magnificent effort from Gareth and the lads. I'm actually going against the general consensus here and say I don't think Southgate was overly negative. Yes we'd all like to see Grealish, Foden, Sancho/Sako start but that Italian team would have pissed through that midfield. The outstanding performers for last night were Rice and Phillips. He managed the game pretty welland it came down to fine margins. Yes, we're always wiser with hindsight but England have had a super tournament and will be even better for this experience. Therein lies the problem. Positive managers let the opposition worry about us, negative managers seek to negate the strengths of the opposition. There is clearly a grey area where people will differ. Personally, I don't think you need 2 holding midfielders with 3 CH's and 2 wing backs + Mount. I would have been happier throughout the tournament if he had only played 1 of Rice-Phillips and replaced the other with any of the 4 you mentioned. However, I agree that Southgate has done a good job this tournament following his own path and we will be better for the experience. Do I think Southgate will change his mindset in the WC at Qatar based on what he has learned here? No I don't, but the same players will hopefully be better and more experienced and thus able to perform at a higher level.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 14:10:18 GMT
Sorry to say, but Southgate is just the latest of a ridiculously long list of England Managers who has failed when faced with a big test. And this was the first big test of this tournament. As was Croatia in 2018. The German game wasn't a big test? No. Not on this occasion. A couple of my German friends had said how poor the current German team was. I doubted them, but they were correct.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 14:16:57 GMT
The German game wasn't a big test? No. Not on this occasion. A couple of my German friends had said how poor the current German team was. I doubted them, but they were correct. Not a great German team but still a mental barrier to overcome. Very lucky they didn’t have their shooting boots on. But that’s tournament football. We’ve had a great tournament and they have done themselves proud but at that the final hurdle they offered nothing. Apart from some atrocious penalties I’m not bothered about the penalty shootout per se it’s how we got there I’d feel better being outplayed but giving it ago. It’s disappointing because after the goal it seems like we surrendered. That’s why people are pissed off. Could say the same after Croatia
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 14:27:05 GMT
The German game wasn't a big test? No. Not on this occasion. A couple of my German friends had said how poor the current German team was. I doubted them, but they were correct. To say the German game wasn't a big test is just way off the mark as far as I'm concerned whether it was a vintage team or not......
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Post by pmjh on Jul 12, 2021 14:29:35 GMT
Maybe we should give some credit and grudging respect to an Italian team that is now unbeaten in 34 games and knocked out Belgium and Spain along the way. We have no divine right to win these games. I'm gutted that we lost. But in the cold light of day we did better than most people predicted at the start of the tournament. We have reached the semi and final of the last two tournaments, with a young improving team. I thought we had a chance in the final, but most neutrals would have made the Italians favourites.
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Post by moon on Jul 12, 2021 14:30:07 GMT
No. Not on this occasion. A couple of my German friends had said how poor the current German team was. I doubted them, but they were correct. Not a great German team but still a mental barrier to overcome. Very lucky they didn’t have their shooting boots on. But that’s tournament football. We’ve had a great tournament and they have done themselves proud but at that the final hurdle they offered nothing. Apart from some atrocious penalties I’m not bothered about the penalty shootout per se it’s how we got there I’d feel better being outplayed but giving it ago. It’s disappointing because after the goal it seems like we surrendered. That’s why people are pissed off. Could say the same after Croatia Exactly my thoughts, I'm not bothered by the penalty shootout at all, England have never been good at penalties as far back as I can remember. It's what came before it that bothers me, we should have had more of a go, I hope Southgate recognises that even if he doesn't admit to it in his interviews, I fear he doesn't see it though, he'll put it all down to being unlucky in a shootout and he'll make the same mistakes again.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 12, 2021 14:31:41 GMT
Sorry to say, but Southgate is just the latest of a ridiculously long list of England Managers who has failed when faced with a big test. And this was the first big test of this tournament. As was Croatia in 2018. Couldn't agree more. We have this unusual mentality of being gallant losers in this country. Media saying its a brilliant achievement etc etc. I couldn't care less if he's looks/sounds good in interviews, is a nice bloke or does his mum's shopping. The fact is he is paid to win matches and ultimately tournaments. So far he's won the square root of fuck all. Give me a nasty bastard who gets results all day long. We've come through a relatively easy group to qualify, played at home, with fantastic fans.... It even pissed down for the occasion and still we can't put it to bed. If he takes us to next years World Cup, expect an early flight home for the team. There's a major tournament every 2 years, 55 teams enter the Euros and 211 the World Cup. Everyone bar the winner doesn't fail, yes we haven't won it but we've made progress two tournaments running......
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2021 14:41:47 GMT
No. Not on this occasion. A couple of my German friends had said how poor the current German team was. I doubted them, but they were correct. Not a great German team but still a mental barrier to overcome. Very lucky they didn’t have their shooting boots on. But that’s tournament football. We’ve had a great tournament and they have done themselves proud but at that the final hurdle they offered nothing. Apart from some atrocious penalties I’m not bothered about the penalty shootout per se it’s how we got there I’d feel better being outplayed but giving it ago. It’s disappointing because after the goal it seems like we surrendered. That’s why people are pissed off. Could say the same after Croatia I think we agree. Germany was a test, but not a big test. No harder than the Denmark game for instance. A big test, IMO, is a strong side. Most times that would be Germany, but they are not that currently. Likewise at Euro 2000 when they were weak. We also beat then on that occasion. We also failed to qualify from the group stage in that tournament when we messed up big time in the final game against Romania. Also on the penalties. I’m not really bothered about them. I think we prepared well. Misses happen. Jorginho for example. What concerns me is the way we played yesterday as explained elsewhere. We were far too negative. Timid, you could say.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 12, 2021 14:49:25 GMT
Not a great German team but still a mental barrier to overcome. Very lucky they didn’t have their shooting boots on. But that’s tournament football. We’ve had a great tournament and they have done themselves proud but at that the final hurdle they offered nothing. Apart from some atrocious penalties I’m not bothered about the penalty shootout per se it’s how we got there I’d feel better being outplayed but giving it ago. It’s disappointing because after the goal it seems like we surrendered. That’s why people are pissed off. Could say the same after Croatia Exactly my thoughts, I'm not bothered by the penalty shootout at all, England have never been good at penalties as far back as I can remember. It's what came before it that bothers me, we should have had more of a go, I hope Southgate recognises that even if he doesn't admit to it in his interviews, I fear he doesn't see it though, he'll put it all down to being unlucky in a shootout and he'll make the same mistakes again.
Third times a charm
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 12, 2021 15:06:17 GMT
Strange, reading some earlier posts you’d think we got hammered last night by a far superior team. Italy couldn’t beat us in 2 hours and couldn’t score from open play. They beat us on penalties. End of. We played 7 matches, won 5, drew 2 and lost a penalty shoot out. Best result since 1966. On to Qatar…..
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