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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 11, 2021 8:04:04 GMT
With violence escalating again, will this mess ever be resolved? Having been to both sides of the wall 18 months or so ago, my conclusion was that Hamas are a disgrace as is much of the Israeli leadership. It was disturbing listening to how indoctrinated both sides are into thinking the other is evil. The terrorist acts of Hamas, particularly the way they exploit and brainwash children is disgusting as is the way the Israeli police treat "Arabs". Even taxi drivers must have an "Arab" sticker on the car as identity and more often than not they get fined or pulled over for no reason while being treated as inferior members of society.
Having the holiest site of Judaism next door to the third holiest site in Islam in a part of Jerusalem that is disputed is never going to end well.
Is there ever going to be a solution? I don't know enough about it and the history is complex but for me the world needs to officially recognise the Palestinian territories as an independant country while leaving Jerusalem with Israel. It would at least give Palestine a voice and proper global support while also giving Israel what they want.
I don't know what else you can do. It's a total minefield but until Palestine is formally recognised then Hamas will continue to cause havoc. Not helped by some pretty disturbing nationalist leadership in Israel.
What a mess..
Incidentally - Jerusalem Old City is a must see for anyone interested in history or spiritual vibes! Probably best to avoid it at the moment though 😊
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Post by felonious on May 11, 2021 8:25:31 GMT
The news is never good for Israel. Last night's suggestion was that they were evicting Palestinians from East Jerusalem? and this was causing the unrest along with militant Israelis going on marches to Palestinian areas I suppose it's a similar principle to the Orangemen marches in NI.
Israel has taken over huge swathes of land and then proceeded to cleanse and develop. Unfortunately over the decades a pattern is emerging. Any solution has to come from the state of Israel. It doesn't help when you have the lunacy of religion on both sides. There probably is no solution to this unless the USA comes to it's senses.
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Israel
May 11, 2021 8:40:11 GMT
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on May 11, 2021 8:40:11 GMT
The news is never good for Israel. Last night's suggestion was that they were evicting Palestinians from East Jerusalem? and this was causing the unrest along with militant Israelis going on marches to Palestinian areas I suppose it's a similar principle to the Orangemen marches in NI. Israel has taken over huge swathes of land and then proceeded to cleanse and develop. Unfortunately over the decades a pattern is emerging. Any solution has to come from the state of Israel. It doesn't help when you have the lunacy of religion on both sides. There probably is no solution to this unless the USA comes to it's senses. The bloodshed religion causes. As we speak 11 confirmed dead in Kazan shooting. Children. Disgusting.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 8:44:29 GMT
The only solution would be for Israel to return to the borders of the 1940s
Returning the land illegally stolen and occupied could well go a long way to solving the problem Not that it will ever happen
Maybe they could stop running a apartheid state and give every person the vote and citizenship Not that it will ever happen
Then there is the American government who’s principals of democracy has been bought by the Israeli lobby Peace depends on America putting pressure on Israel to behave within international law This will never happen
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Israel
May 11, 2021 9:46:16 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on May 11, 2021 9:46:16 GMT
The only solution would be for Israel to return to the borders of the 1940s Returning the land illegally stolen and occupied could well go a long way to solving the problem Not that it will ever happen Maybe they could stop running a apartheid state and give every person the vote and citizenship Not that it will ever happen Then there is the American government who’s principals of democracy has been bought by the Israeli lobby Peace depends on America putting pressure on Israel to behave within international law This will never happen I dont know I just get the idea your suggestion will not work for some reason... Hamas does not want israel to exist, the palestinian authority havent had elections in 15 years, until you get rid of these cunts and some of the cunts in the israeli government there will never be peace that the ordinary people of both states want.
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Post by franklin on May 11, 2021 9:50:59 GMT
I don't think I'll be booking up come next weeks opening of holidays abroad although my son went last year and said it was amazing.
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Israel
May 11, 2021 9:56:22 GMT
Post by partickpotter on May 11, 2021 9:56:22 GMT
The only solution would be for Israel to return to the borders of the 1940s Returning the land illegally stolen and occupied could well go a long way to solving the problem Not that it will ever happen Maybe they could stop running a apartheid state and give every person the vote and citizenship Not that it will ever happen Then there is the American government who’s principals of democracy has been bought by the Israeli lobby Peace depends on America putting pressure on Israel to behave within international law This will never happen The solution is some sort of agreement over the creation of a Palestinian state with borders that are acceptable to all parties. It doesn’t have to be those that existed back in 1948. But, there are, obviously, a whole bunch of complications that make that difficult. Possibly the most significant is the need for all parties to recognise the need for both a state of Israel and Palestine to exist. If that can be sorted, a peaceful outcome is possible. Without it, the cycle of conflict, sadly, continues. Btw, the answer lies as much these days, if not more, with Iran as anyone else.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 10:06:15 GMT
The only solution would be for Israel to return to the borders of the 1940s Returning the land illegally stolen and occupied could well go a long way to solving the problem Not that it will ever happen Maybe they could stop running a apartheid state and give every person the vote and citizenship Not that it will ever happen Then there is the American government who’s principals of democracy has been bought by the Israeli lobby Peace depends on America putting pressure on Israel to behave within international law This will never happen I dont know I just get the idea your suggestion will not work for some reason... Hamas does not want israel to exist, the palestinian authority havent had elections in 15 years, until you get rid of these cunts and some of the cunts in the israeli government there will never be peace that the ordinary people of both states want. Hamas is a creation of the actions of sixty odd years of Israeli oppression There is no fundamental difference between the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of the old South African government The whole world loved the anc who were freedom fighters But hamas there’s a different kettle of fish I wonder why ?
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Israel
May 11, 2021 10:56:01 GMT
Post by lordb on May 11, 2021 10:56:01 GMT
'will this mess ever be resolved?'
no
or at least not for a very long time indeed, certainly not in any of our liftimes
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Israel
May 11, 2021 11:11:28 GMT
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Post by vokeswagen on May 11, 2021 11:11:28 GMT
I dont know I just get the idea your suggestion will not work for some reason... Hamas does not want israel to exist, the palestinian authority havent had elections in 15 years, until you get rid of these cunts and some of the cunts in the israeli government there will never be peace that the ordinary people of both states want. Hamas is a creation of the actions of sixty odd years of Israeli oppression There is no fundamental difference between the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of the old South African government The whole world loved the anc who were freedom fighters But hamas there’s a different kettle of fish I wonder why ? I largely agree with your first two points. However to be fair, the ANC was objectively less violent and destructive than the PLO/Hezbollah/Hamas. Which is not to excuse Israel’s oppression, simply to offer a possible explanation for the discrepancy in perception. The more thick as mince among us like carps will always resent the ANC’s popular support in the west because, in his case at least, he resents ANY black people being lauded On balance though, Mandela was a substantially greater leader, politician, statesman and person than any number of leaders the poor Palestinians have been lumbered with. For all his flaws, he was in a different league, ran his long campaign differently, and was viewed accordingly. None of this helps ordinary Palestinians who just want a normal life sadly.
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Post by followyoudown on May 11, 2021 11:35:04 GMT
I dont know I just get the idea your suggestion will not work for some reason... Hamas does not want israel to exist, the palestinian authority havent had elections in 15 years, until you get rid of these cunts and some of the cunts in the israeli government there will never be peace that the ordinary people of both states want. Hamas is a creation of the actions of sixty odd years of Israeli oppression There is no fundamental difference between the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of the old South African government The whole world loved the anc who were freedom fighters But hamas there’s a different kettle of fish I wonder why ? If you think hamas are freedom fighters you are deluded, freedom fighters dont murder kids or fire missiles that kill their own people or send out kids to throw stones so they get shot.
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Post by PotterLog on May 11, 2021 12:02:03 GMT
I dont know I just get the idea your suggestion will not work for some reason... Hamas does not want israel to exist, the palestinian authority havent had elections in 15 years, until you get rid of these cunts and some of the cunts in the israeli government there will never be peace that the ordinary people of both states want. Hamas is a creation of the actions of sixty odd years of Israeli oppression There is no fundamental difference between the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of the old South African government The whole world loved the anc who were freedom fighters But hamas there’s a different kettle of fish I wonder why ? This comparison is so wildly inaccurate and historically illiterate it’s hard to know where to begin, but let’s start with.. which figure within Hamas - an organisation that has as a foundational principle the obliteration not just of Israel, but of “the Jews”, and preaches this murderous hatred to schoolchildren - could you envision unifying Israel and Palestine through the principles of love and forgiveness in the way Mandela did?
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Israel
May 11, 2021 12:18:09 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 12:18:09 GMT
Hamas is a creation of the actions of sixty odd years of Israeli oppression There is no fundamental difference between the actions of the Israeli government and the actions of the old South African government The whole world loved the anc who were freedom fighters But hamas there’s a different kettle of fish I wonder why ? This comparison is so wildly inaccurate and historically illiterate it’s hard to know where to begin, but let’s start with.. which figure within Hamas - an organisation that has as a foundational principle the obliteration not just of Israel, but of “the Jews”, and preaches this murderous hatred to schoolchildren - could you envision unifying Israel and Palestine through the principles of love and forgiveness in the way Mandela did? I never mentioned everyone’s favourite freedom fighter/ terrorist Mandela The fact still remains there was equally as unpleasant people in the anc as there is in hamas Do I agree with hamas’s policies and it’s actions no Can I understand why they hold those views probably It also doesn’t alter the fact that the Israeli government is in breach of international law and the UN Security Council is powerless to do anything about As the Americans due to the Zionist lobby will use its permanent veto The Israeli treatment of human beings just because they don’t like there religion or ethnicity Is deplorable and no better than the Chinese government Or the Burmese government or any other country practicing genocide
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Israel
May 11, 2021 12:21:48 GMT
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Post by heworksardtho on May 11, 2021 12:21:48 GMT
Send Corbyn over he will sort it out
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 12:28:20 GMT
Send Corbyn over he will sort it out Wasn’t Blair a Middle East peace envoy in between giving advice to dodgy ex soviet republic leaders
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Post by vokeswagen on May 11, 2021 12:33:28 GMT
Send Corbyn over he will sort it out Christ he really got you rattled didn’t he! He’s been off the scene well over a year now, just FYI. He’s fucking gone. You can sleep soundly again
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Post by PotterLog on May 11, 2021 12:44:29 GMT
This comparison is so wildly inaccurate and historically illiterate it’s hard to know where to begin, but let’s start with.. which figure within Hamas - an organisation that has as a foundational principle the obliteration not just of Israel, but of “the Jews”, and preaches this murderous hatred to schoolchildren - could you envision unifying Israel and Palestine through the principles of love and forgiveness in the way Mandela did? I never mentioned everyone’s favourite freedom fighter/ terrorist Mandela The fact still remains there was equally as unpleasant people in the anc as there is in hamas Do I agree with hamas’s policies and it’s actions no Can I understand why they hold those views probably It also doesn’t alter the fact that the Israeli government is in breach of international law and the UN Security Council is powerless to do anything about As the Americans due to the Zionist lobby will use its permanent veto The Israeli treatment of human beings just because they don’t like there religion or ethnicity Is deplorable and no better than the Chinese government Or the Burmese government or any other country practicing genocide Absolutely ludicrous statement. Your view on Israel is completely detached from reality - “wonder why” to use your own words above.
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 12:54:14 GMT
I never mentioned everyone’s favourite freedom fighter/ terrorist Mandela The fact still remains there was equally as unpleasant people in the anc as there is in hamas Do I agree with hamas’s policies and it’s actions no Can I understand why they hold those views probably It also doesn’t alter the fact that the Israeli government is in breach of international law and the UN Security Council is powerless to do anything about As the Americans due to the Zionist lobby will use its permanent veto The Israeli treatment of human beings just because they don’t like there religion or ethnicity Is deplorable and no better than the Chinese government Or the Burmese government or any other country practicing genocide Absolutely ludicrous statement. Your view on Israel is completely detached from reality - “wonder why” to use your own words above. What’s detached from reality Are the Israeli government stealing land against international law yes Are they ethically cleansing Arabs yes Are they denying Arabs the right of citizenship and the vote yes If these acts were being committed by any other country then there would be international outrage That’s the reality
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Post by PotterLog on May 11, 2021 13:19:57 GMT
Absolutely ludicrous statement. Your view on Israel is completely detached from reality - “wonder why” to use your own words above. What’s detached from reality Are the Israeli government stealing land against international law yes Are they ethically cleansing Arabs yes Are they denying Arabs the right of citizenship and the vote yes If these acts were being committed by any other country then there would be international outrage That’s the reality The population of Gaza is *growing*. Do you know what genocide is? Do you know how quickly Israel could achieve it if that’s what they were committed to?
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 13:26:06 GMT
What’s detached from reality Are the Israeli government stealing land against international law yes Are they ethically cleansing Arabs yes Are they denying Arabs the right of citizenship and the vote yes If these acts were being committed by any other country then there would be international outrage That’s the reality The population of Gaza is *growing*. Do you know what genocide is? Do you know how quickly Israel could achieve it if that’s what they were committed to? So you thinks it’s perfectly ok For the Israeli government to steal East Jerusalem residents homes Deny them citizenship and the vote Whilst appropriating vast tracts of the West Bank against international law
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Post by PotterLog on May 11, 2021 13:54:00 GMT
The population of Gaza is *growing*. Do you know what genocide is? Do you know how quickly Israel could achieve it if that’s what they were committed to? So you thinks it’s perfectly ok For the Israeli government to steal East Jerusalem residents homes Deny them citizenship and the vote Whilst appropriating vast tracts of the West Bank against international law We’re just parking the genocide thing for now then? I haven’t said anything’s “ok”. One thing I do know though is that using terms like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” will instantly devalue any genuine criticisms one might have of Israel. Because they’re ridiculous.
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Post by Veritas on May 11, 2021 14:00:43 GMT
So you thinks it’s perfectly ok For the Israeli government to steal East Jerusalem residents homes Deny them citizenship and the vote Whilst appropriating vast tracts of the West Bank against international law We’re just parking the genocide thing for now then? I haven’t said anything’s “ok”. One thing I do know though is that using terms like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” will instantly devalue any genuine criticisms one might have of Israel. Because they’re ridiculous. I agree that using genocide is inaccurate and particularly offensive but I can't see how anyone can argue with the term ethnic cleansing being used to describe what has been happening to the Palestinians over many years.
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Israel
May 11, 2021 14:04:23 GMT
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Post by vokeswagen on May 11, 2021 14:04:23 GMT
So you thinks it’s perfectly ok For the Israeli government to steal East Jerusalem residents homes Deny them citizenship and the vote Whilst appropriating vast tracts of the West Bank against international law We’re just parking the genocide thing for now then? I haven’t said anything’s “ok”. One thing I do know though is that using terms like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” will instantly devalue any genuine criticisms one might have of Israel. Because they’re ridiculous. In fairness the ethnic cleansing accusation is far from ridiculous. Various actions taken in Israel and the occupied territories could fit the definition of ethnic cleansing. Genocide is an exaggeration I agree, although worth pointing out that he was using that term in conjunction with Myanmar I think, not Israel
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Israel
May 11, 2021 14:06:36 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on May 11, 2021 14:06:36 GMT
So you thinks it’s perfectly ok For the Israeli government to steal East Jerusalem residents homes Deny them citizenship and the vote Whilst appropriating vast tracts of the West Bank against international law We’re just parking the genocide thing for now then? I haven’t said anything’s “ok”. One thing I do know though is that using terms like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” will instantly devalue any genuine criticisms one might have of Israel. Because they’re ridiculous. As for ethnic cleansing what are the Israelis doing if it’s not removing a grouping of people based on their religion and race
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Post by partickpotter on May 11, 2021 14:08:21 GMT
It’s depressing.
The fundamentalist (with the emphasis on mental) Hamas launch a bunch of rockets whose primary purpose is not to kill Israelis (although they are quite happy if some are killed, particularly citizens and even more so women and children) but to prompt Israel to respond with disproportionate force.
Israel, predictably and miserably, then respond with disproportionate force usually killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli killed.
This happens pretty much every 4 or 5 years.
Absolutely appalling from both sides.
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Post by PotterLog on May 11, 2021 15:28:14 GMT
We’re just parking the genocide thing for now then? I haven’t said anything’s “ok”. One thing I do know though is that using terms like “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” will instantly devalue any genuine criticisms one might have of Israel. Because they’re ridiculous. As for ethnic cleansing what are the Israelis doing if it’s not removing a grouping of people based on their religion and race The president of Israel hosts a dinner for breaking Ramadan every year with leaders of the country's Muslim community. A community which is also growing, and which represents a far higher proportion of the overall population than in the UK, for example. It's also a population that enjoys certain democratically-protected individual rights and freedoms they could only dream of in the rest of the middle east. The best place in the region to be a free-thinking, secular, gay, or even female Muslim, is Israel. How is that indicative of a state interested in "removing a grouping of people based on their religion and race"? (Something which, again, leaders on the other side are very explicit about.) Israel is far from perfect and I'm not interested in defending its government/police/authorities, some of its actions in occupied territories are atrocious, I agree. There is discrimination and there are abuses. But you're boiling an incredibly layered, complex geopolitical issue down to simplistic, emotional hyperbole and making comparisons to tyrannical states carrying out genuine death-camp, rape-and-torture genocide. It just obstructs any sensible debate about it. I'll leave it there because I've got work to do
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Post by xchpotter on May 11, 2021 16:01:01 GMT
Awful situation out there, but I thought this was interesting.
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Post by heworksardtho on May 11, 2021 16:43:08 GMT
Send Corbyn over he will sort it out Christ he really got you rattled didn’t he! He’s been off the scene well over a year now, just FYI. He’s fucking gone. You can sleep soundly again Chill your beans Wolfie the red wall has been smashed to bits
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Israel
May 11, 2021 17:28:05 GMT
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Post by vokeswagen on May 11, 2021 17:28:05 GMT
Christ he really got you rattled didn’t he! He’s been off the scene well over a year now, just FYI. He’s fucking gone. You can sleep soundly again Chill your beans Wolfie the red wall has been smashed to bits Exactly, so you can let it lie now fella. He’s gone...
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Israel
May 11, 2021 18:13:30 GMT
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Post by elystokie on May 11, 2021 18:13:30 GMT
Kicking off big time now Al Jazeera covering it live.
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