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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 18, 2020 13:47:50 GMT
It's spreading faster than Covid in the Championship
Half the league now playing this way. Even old-stagers like Rowett and Warnock have switched.
Bournemouth
Watford
Bristol City
Swansea
Stoke
Middlesbrough
Derby (switched a couple of games ago)
Huddersfield (just switched to it yesterday)
Millwall
Sheff Weds
Barnsley
Coventry
Preston (matched Stoke up with it, but that's the only game they've used it)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 13:51:50 GMT
It's spreading faster than Covid in the Championship Half the league now playing this way. Even old-stagers like Rowett and Warnock have switched. Bournemouth Watford Bristol City Swansea Stoke Middlesbrough Derby (switched a couple of games ago) Huddersfield (just switched to it yesterday) Millwall Sheff Weds Barnsley Coventry Preston (matched Stoke up with it, but that's the only game they've used it) The only reason I can think of is that they're copying the great man as they know that whatever MON touches turns to gold........ |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 18, 2020 14:06:30 GMT
Safety first I’d suggest is the policy now in this league especially away from home.
Cardiff who are playing 4-4-1-1(apparently) have an away record exactly the same as ours with no goals conceded but have lost both home games.Teams seem to struggle making the play when the onus is on them at home🤔
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Post by thehoof on Oct 18, 2020 14:42:32 GMT
Because no team has got 4 competent defenders.
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Post by chuckrocky on Oct 18, 2020 14:43:44 GMT
You can add the England national side to that too.
Doesn’t half make for some dull games.
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Post by chayseeoatcake on Oct 18, 2020 14:47:08 GMT
Lack of quality midfielders.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 18, 2020 15:12:31 GMT
3 2 5
Is they way forward
Attack attack attack
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Oct 18, 2020 15:17:24 GMT
Im guessing there will be some new coaching philosophy doing the rounds.
Probably some bullshit about 3 at the back making more space on the pitch to create overloads.
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Post by FullerMagic on Oct 18, 2020 15:20:02 GMT
Even Moyesy is doing it at West Ham now as well.
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Post by terrorofturfmoor on Oct 18, 2020 15:27:39 GMT
Bristol are leading the way with it!!!
When we play them, they ran the midfield, their two lads were way more mobile than Clucas and Mikel, meaning Powell had to do is fair share of running back, rather than staying up where he's more effective!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 15:32:42 GMT
Roberto Martinez predicted this a few years ago before he left Wigan. He said he thought that teams were slowly going to shift to playing 3 at the back with one striker off another, essentially making it a 3-6-1.
There was a manager at Wolves many years ago, Colin Lee, that did it in an away match at Walsall on a Friday night (I think). Don't know why I've remembered it...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 15:36:47 GMT
I think some trends just become a thing, like deely boppers, fidget spinners and fingerless gloves. Next year it will bedayglo pipes or something.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 18, 2020 16:03:11 GMT
Even Moyesy is doing it at West Ham now as well. It's, er, not going so well... |
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 18, 2020 16:11:08 GMT
Gudjon v Walsall was the true pioneer
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Post by scfcno1fan on Oct 18, 2020 16:41:57 GMT
Didn’t realise Barnsley played it.
Should make for an entertaining game Wednesday.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 17:53:20 GMT
I think fear is one driving factor. Lots of teams conceded loads of cheap goals last season, so one more defender should do the trick seems to be the thought.
I don't think teams are playing 3 at the back really. I think they're playing five at the back, unless they have exceptionally gifted wingbacks that are more wings than backs. We certainly don't have adequate wingbacks, although we may have some in time, if our coaaching works.
We don't really need the extra defender, because Souttar and Collins are talented enough to defend on their own. Being young they might make the occasional mistake but they are both intelligent and will learn . But O'Neill, also driven by fear, thinks they must have a minder, not realising or not willing to accept that oldies make mistakes too and sometimes more costly (Chester). What they need they've already got in Mikel as a midfield sweeper, but if we're not careful he could hold us back.
Watching England in midweek the five at the back plus two holding midfielders killed any creativity in their game and we're a lot like that too, but we're not helped by Powell's poor form. Here's to hoping he will do better as a wannabe striker, though if we want to get the best out of him, we should return to last season's system.
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Post by Miles Offside on Oct 18, 2020 18:05:41 GMT
It's spreading faster than Covid in the Championship Half the league now playing this way. Even old-stagers like Rowett and Warnock have switched. At first glance it looks like they're throwing caution to the wind and going full-out attacking football. At second glance, I think (memory could be wrong) there were 4 goals scored in the whole of the Championship by HT yesterday. I'm waiting for the day when playing 3 or more up front isn't seen as a certifiable action. |
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Post by lordb on Oct 18, 2020 18:19:14 GMT
Gudjon v Walsall was the true pioneer The play off game? He played 451 Worked a treat until Ward chucked one into his own net, team then collapsed Again good example of how tactics are important but are way behind the other factors |
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Post by Championship Potter on Oct 18, 2020 18:38:25 GMT
It is a bit odd but think it’s the natural evolution following the emergence of attacking full backs. Attacking full backs in a 4-2-3-1 worked for a time, but think there’s acknowledgment now that this leaves the centre backs too exposed. It’s not a million miles away from 4-2-3-1 I suppose - you’re effectively just pushing the full backs further and dropping the defensive midfielder back into a back 3, which was what all of the decent teams playing 4-2-3-1 were doing years ago when attacking.
Not massively convinced of its benefits for teams like us with fairly defensive full backs but it does appear to be working well for us. As has been mentioned above, if you don’t have decent full backs it’s effectively a very negative 5 at the back!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 18, 2020 19:33:15 GMT
I just think defenders are generally shite nowadays with the odd exception
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Post by PotterLog on Oct 18, 2020 19:49:48 GMT
Gudjon v Walsall was the true pioneer The play off game? He played 451 Worked a treat until Ward chucked one into his own net, team then collapsed Again good example of how tactics are important but are way behind the other factors I thought he famously went five at the back in a game we had to win? Or was it five defenders but one played in midfield (Clarke?) I wasn’t there, I’d always thought that was the big controversy |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 18, 2020 19:58:53 GMT
Gudjon v Walsall was the true pioneer The play off game? He played 451 Worked a treat until Ward chucked one into his own net, team then collapsed Again good example of how tactics are important but are way behind the other factors Don't think they're way behind. It's true that players win games but that only heightens the importance of playing a system that gets the best out of them and plays to their strengths. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2020 20:08:07 GMT
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 18, 2020 20:34:16 GMT
I'd shared Mutts' suspicions that there's a tendency towards caution in this league at the moment. I haven't seen many wildly gung ho 3-4-3/3-5-2s so far. Perhaps it's that everyone's terrified of a relegation that few can afford in the current climate? Or perhaps there's just a dearth of good defending and so managers are more inclined to find ways to protect them?
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Post by lordb on Oct 18, 2020 21:11:06 GMT
The play off game? He played 451 Worked a treat until Ward chucked one into his own net, team then collapsed Again good example of how tactics are important but are way behind the other factors Don't think they're way behind. It's true that players win games but that only heightens the importance of playing a system that gets the best out of them and plays to their strengths. Well you need everything, tactics that suit your players and the game being played You need heart, you need brains, fitness, ability and a bit of luck Number one is that players need to believe |
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Post by kustokie on Oct 18, 2020 22:38:54 GMT
I'd shared Mutts' suspicions that there's a tendency towards caution in this league at the moment. I haven't seen many wildly gung ho 3-4-3/3-5-2s so far. Perhaps it's that everyone's terrified of a relegation that few can afford in the current climate? Or perhaps there's just a dearth of good defending and so managers are more inclined to find ways to protect them? Isn’t 3-5-2 the same as 5-3-2, with the wing backs dropping back when defending? In fact I thought that was the whole point. |
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 19, 2020 6:31:09 GMT
I'd shared Mutts' suspicions that there's a tendency towards caution in this league at the moment. I haven't seen many wildly gung ho 3-4-3/3-5-2s so far. Perhaps it's that everyone's terrified of a relegation that few can afford in the current climate? Or perhaps there's just a dearth of good defending and so managers are more inclined to find ways to protect them? Isn’t 3-5-2 the same as 5-3-2, with the wing backs dropping back when defending? In fact I thought that was the whole point. That is the theory. In practice though it doesn’t work because the wide men cannot cope with the demands meaning, in the case of 352 an opposing side playing 442 can counter the attacking threat with the standard full backs and dominate midfield with 4 against 3. In the case of 532, which is how this formation usually ends up because there are more players that can do the defensive part of this role than the attacking part and managers opt for safety first, you end up with an incredibly negative formation that finds it difficult to break out of defence. Why do wide men struggle in this formation - well, you need to be a winger and a full back. You’ve got to tackle, dribble and cross. And be incredibly fit. A few players might be able to do this. A very few. |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 19, 2020 7:03:52 GMT
I'd shared Mutts' suspicions that there's a tendency towards caution in this league at the moment. I haven't seen many wildly gung ho 3-4-3/3-5-2s so far. Perhaps it's that everyone's terrified of a relegation that few can afford in the current climate? Or perhaps there's just a dearth of good defending and so managers are more inclined to find ways to protect them? Isn’t 3-5-2 the same as 5-3-2, with the wing backs dropping back when defending? In fact I thought that was the whole point. The entire system is pretty much defined by what kind of wing backs you're going with, doesn't it? |
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Oct 19, 2020 7:05:58 GMT
Don't think they're way behind. It's true that players win games but that only heightens the importance of playing a system that gets the best out of them and plays to their strengths. Well you need everything, tactics that suit your players and the game being played You need heart, you need brains, fitness, ability and a bit of luck Number one is that players need to believe Are you sure you're not thinking of Space Jam? |
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Post by salopstick on Oct 19, 2020 7:41:18 GMT
I just think defenders are generally shite nowadays with the odd exception The non contact rules have made defending harder plus hoofing it forward is out of fashion |
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