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Post by spitthedog on Sept 28, 2020 18:20:05 GMT
I think the upside to this is that you will now probably get a whole lot more school kids googling 'anti-capitalism' to find out what it is they are banned from knowing ... !
There is nothing like a good ban to stir real interest and stimulate research.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 18:40:04 GMT
Of course communism as an economical political ideology should be taught. As should the theory of capitalism as an economic and political system. Nothing controversial about that...... Communism is pure ideology, whereas capitalism is actually an evolved economic form of exchange. Just because it’s evolved doesn’t mean there’s not lots wrong with it though...... |
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 28, 2020 19:21:58 GMT
Communism is pure ideology, whereas capitalism is actually an evolved economic form of exchange. Just because it’s evolved doesn’t mean there’s not lots wrong with it though...... I was going to say 'evolved'??? September 2008 Banking crisis was a near-death experience for global capitalism with not many lessons learned it seems. |
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Sept 28, 2020 20:59:26 GMT
Personally I think the youth of today should be educated as to what communism is: an idea by a social philosopher who assumed that the next step in human evolution was the end of difference between humans, particularly material differences. This idea turned into an ideology. That ideology was used to shape societies and in doing so led to the greatest collective loss of human life in history Anyone left who still this communism is a great idea should be left to pursue this blind alley I studied British and European history at A level about 25 years ago. The tsars were bad enough, the communists took it to a whole other level, then you had the fascists thrown into the mix. I believe what you're seeing on the left is an amalgam of these ideologies and beliefs. The same tactics are being used and the education system is being used to indoctrinate the young as anyone old enough to have had a reasonable education can see through the Marxist bull shit being spouted. They're playing a long game but it won't be long before they've got kids grassing their parents up. Like the covid grassing, |
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Post by sheikhmomo on Sept 28, 2020 21:23:50 GMT
The recent "evolution" of Capitalism seems to involve children in the richest economies in the world going hungry and the capitalists employing their friends who control the media to tell the poor it's their fault. It involves filthy rich 'patriots' betting against this country's future and telling those who protest that they are traitors. It involves a society where the top 10% of households hold 45% of national wealth whilst the poorest 10th hold just 2% and that is entirely normalised.
Brilliant innit.
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 28, 2020 22:47:44 GMT
The recent "evolution" of Capitalism seems to involve children in the richest economies in the world going hungry and the capitalists employing their friends who control the media to tell the poor it's their fault. It involves filthy rich 'patriots' betting against this country's future and telling those who protest that they are traitors. It involves a society where the top 10% of households hold 45% of national wealth whilst the poorest 10th hold just 2% and that is entirely normalised. Brilliant innit. An ideology of divisiveness. |
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Post by Goonie on Sept 29, 2020 6:17:35 GMT
Communism is pure ideology, whereas capitalism is actually an evolved economic form of exchange. Just because it’s evolved doesn’t mean there’s not lots wrong with it though...... Very true. Compassionate Capitalism would be the ideal, that said every system has faults, unfair winners and losers. The greatest human folly is to believe that these deficits can ever be entirely overcome. The other problem with economic ideologies is that they equate human happiness with material gain, yet consistent studies show that the happiest people are in the lowest income bracket, have high connection to the land and a wealth of community relationships |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 6:24:03 GMT
The recent "evolution" of Capitalism seems to involve children in the richest economies in the world going hungry and the capitalists employing their friends who control the media to tell the poor it's their fault. It involves filthy rich 'patriots' betting against this country's future and telling those who protest that they are traitors. It involves a society where the top 10% of households hold 45% of national wealth whilst the poorest 10th hold just 2% and that is entirely normalised. Brilliant innit. It doesn’t involve sticking to your capitalist principles when there’s a global pandemic either. Then it’s all government bailouts, nationalising railways and socialists policies galore..... |
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Post by Dutchpeter on Sept 29, 2020 6:52:58 GMT
The recent "evolution" of Capitalism seems to involve children in the richest economies in the world going hungry and the capitalists employing their friends who control the media to tell the poor it's their fault. It involves filthy rich 'patriots' betting against this country's future and telling those who protest that they are traitors. It involves a society where the top 10% of households hold 45% of national wealth whilst the poorest 10th hold just 2% and that is entirely normalised. Brilliant innit. It doesn’t involve sticking to your capitalist principles when there’s a global pandemic either. Then it’s all government bailouts, nationalising railways and socialists policies galore..... And abandoning freedom of movement in the EU, tearing up the EU rule books on spending, and even ruling by decree in Hungary. Like those previous examples the socialist style policies to counter the pandemic are firefighting measures not a tacit admission that these measures are correct normally. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 7:14:03 GMT
Personally I think the youth of today should be educated as to what communism is: an idea by a social philosopher who assumed that the next step in human evolution was the end of difference between humans, particularly material differences. This idea turned into an ideology. That ideology was used to shape societies and in doing so led to the greatest collective loss of human life in history Anyone left who still this communism is a great idea should be left to pursue this blind alley The youth of today will continue to be taught what communism is. All the rules say is that they shouldn't be taught what communism is using Das Kapital as their text book. I think I get your point, but Das Kapital probably will be used as a text book since it forms the basis of communism. And then it can be discussed and debated as it should be. In much the same way that religious teaching using the Bible or whatever sacred text the particular religion follows also should. And I'd probably say that religion as an ideology and in all its forms has led to the greatest collective loss of human life in history rather than communism, which after all is basically a 20th century phenomenon, murderous though it was under Stalin especially. Before the usual dog whistle nutters go mental again, that doesn't mean I support communism  |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 7:18:30 GMT
and that really is bullshit. All I ever heard in Staff Rooms in 20 years was people going on about getting pissed up, who they had shagged, football and soap operas. Hardly need for the Stasi there. Who creates these myths? Well you only have to look at the shite universities produce masquerading as so called balanced journalists to understand there is a lack of balance in there education Ive never been to sure if a trilby suits me or not Many thousands of those "leftie graduates" have gone on to work for papers like the Telegraph, Express, Mail, etc etc. It's not just the media outlets you don't like which produce unbalanced journalism. |
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Post by Timmypotter on Sept 29, 2020 7:49:38 GMT
The youth of today will continue to be taught what communism is. All the rules say is that they shouldn't be taught what communism is using Das Kapital as their text book. I think I get your point, but Das Kapital probably will be used as a text book since it forms the basis of communism. And then it can be discussed and debated as it should be. In much the same way that religious teaching using the Bible or whatever sacred text the particular religion follows also should. And I'd probably say that religion as an ideology and in all its forms has led to the greatest collective loss of human life in history rather than communism, which after all is basically a 20th century phenomenon, murderous though it was under Stalin especially. Before the usual dog whistle nutters go mental again, that doesn't mean I support communism As a primary source it is completely fine, as is Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book or Gadaffi's Green Book. As 'educational resources' they are not fine. I wouldn't want a question sheet to require a student to find the 'correct' answer from any of these texts. I would want a student to analyse them as part of a deeper understanding of Communism/Nazism etc. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 8:18:45 GMT
I think I get your point, but Das Kapital probably will be used as a text book since it forms the basis of communism. And then it can be discussed and debated as it should be. In much the same way that religious teaching using the Bible or whatever sacred text the particular religion follows also should. And I'd probably say that religion as an ideology and in all its forms has led to the greatest collective loss of human life in history rather than communism, which after all is basically a 20th century phenomenon, murderous though it was under Stalin especially. Before the usual dog whistle nutters go mental again, that doesn't mean I support communism As a primary source it is completely fine, as is Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book or Gadaffi's Green Book. As 'educational resources' they are not fine. I wouldn't want a question sheet to require a student to find the 'correct' answer from any of these texts. I would want a student to analyse them as part of a deeper understanding of Communism/Nazism etc. Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... |
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 29, 2020 8:38:34 GMT
As a primary source it is completely fine, as is Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book or Gadaffi's Green Book. As 'educational resources' they are not fine. I wouldn't want a question sheet to require a student to find the 'correct' answer from any of these texts. I would want a student to analyse them as part of a deeper understanding of Communism/Nazism etc. Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... It's a very dangerous road and is indeed very ambiguous too which is also worrying. I don t see why capitalism should be included. A document which discusses capitalism and might advocate it to be abolished is not obviously or necessarily violent or aggressive or a danger to society and can include a reasonable argument to propose it. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it or it should be enforced but could form the basis of a constructive discussion. If we are going to go down the road of only including education material "we" agree with then let's look at China as a model. Ive been teaching Chinese students for years and have always appreciated our ability to draw on diverse material for education. It seems this is a step designed to narrow this. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 9:20:19 GMT
Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... It's a very dangerous road and is indeed very ambiguous too which is also worrying. I don t see why capitalism should be included. A document which discusses capitalism and might advocate it to be abolished is not obviously necessarily violent or aggressive or a danger to society and can include a reasonable argument to propose it. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it or it should be enforced but could form the basis of a constructive discussion. If we are going to go down the road of only including education material "we" agree with then let's look at China as a model. Ive been teaching Chinese students for years and have always appreciated our ability to draw on diverse material for education. It seems this is a step designed to narrow this. Yes, I agree. It seems a strangely specific inclusion, especially if you're not going to specifically mention certain religious texts in the same category of "things which might be implied to support or endorse extreme organisations"... |
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Post by Timmypotter on Sept 29, 2020 9:57:10 GMT
As a primary source it is completely fine, as is Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book or Gadaffi's Green Book. As 'educational resources' they are not fine. I wouldn't want a question sheet to require a student to find the 'correct' answer from any of these texts. I would want a student to analyse them as part of a deeper understanding of Communism/Nazism etc. Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... I personally think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. I'd imagine this has come about as a result of a small number of teachers using educational resources provided by groups such as mermaids or BLM, and using them in an uncritical way; presenting them as 'truth' or the 'answer' on issues over which there is strong debate. I think a lot of it comes down to your interpretation of what constitutes an 'educational resource'. For me, that's anything that purports to give a student the 'correct' answer. Where there is no correct answer that is a dangerous thing. |
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Post by qpatriot on Sept 29, 2020 10:37:27 GMT
The prospect of the vile Paul Dacre and the detestable Charles Moore running Ofcom and The BBC respectively should put a shiver through everyone's soul. Maker no mistake, this is beyond Trumpian and represents a hard right wing takeover. Truly chilling goings on at the minute. Why should it put a shiver through everyone's soul? Just because you don't agree with it? Personally, I think it's FANTASTIC  |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 10:47:16 GMT
Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... I personally think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. I'd imagine this has come about as a result of a small number of teachers using educational resources provided by groups such as mermaids or BLM, and using them in an uncritical way; presenting them as 'truth' or the 'answer' on issues over which there is strong debate. I think a lot of it comes down to your interpretation of what constitutes an 'educational resource'. For me, that's anything that purports to give a student the 'correct' answer. Where there is no correct answer that is a dangerous thing. Supposition, as we don't know what drove this approach to controlling which items are deemed to be suitable for use as teaching aids. Is capitalism the only correct answer? However, in that list provided in the article, it's only the inclusion of capitalism that stands out for me as a bit odd. All the rest seem entirely fair enough. |
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Post by Timmypotter on Sept 29, 2020 10:55:00 GMT
I personally think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. I'd imagine this has come about as a result of a small number of teachers using educational resources provided by groups such as mermaids or BLM, and using them in an uncritical way; presenting them as 'truth' or the 'answer' on issues over which there is strong debate. I think a lot of it comes down to your interpretation of what constitutes an 'educational resource'. For me, that's anything that purports to give a student the 'correct' answer. Where there is no correct answer that is a dangerous thing. Is capitalism the only correct answer? No, but abolishing capitalism definitely isn't the answer. I believe in equality of opportunity for all and state ownership of key industries and infrastructure. I'm a socialist, and when Jeremy Corbyn was elected Labour Party leader I was delighted. However, socialism does not equal the abolition of capitalism. Whenever any country has attempted to do away with the market economy or private property entirely it has either been abandoned very quickly or resulted in disaster. Educational resources, presented as the correct answer, produced by groups who espouse the abolition of capitalism, should be nowhere near our schools. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 29, 2020 11:10:20 GMT
If 'extreme material' is being presented as the only correct answer, then I'd absolutely agree. The same applies to all forms of extremism, hate speech, racial and religious bigotry etc. But I'm not sure that what appears to be a blanket ban on anything that might argue against capitalism, even if the material is not extreme, but might be perceived to support or imply support for extreme organisations as that article states, is the way forward. To me it appears to imply that we have collectively decided as a nation that capitalism is the only answer and any dissent "vill not be tolerated..." There have been plenty of societies that have existed since civilisation started 12,000 years ago that have managed without capitalism... What next? We're not allowed to even discuss whether certain religions might not be as peaceful as they first claim, through an analysis of non-extreme material, because that's not the right answer? Dangerous ground. (I feel I should reiterate before the usual nutters get too excited that I'm not advocating the abolition of capitalism, I'm merely commenting on the point of the thread, that is the possible banning of anti-capitalist material from schools and the possible implications of doing so). |
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Post by ColonelMustard on Sept 29, 2020 12:12:24 GMT
This stage of the evolution of capitalism where lobbyists get to buy favourable policy and navigate the gaps between the tax regimes of nation states sure seems like it might be an evolutionary dead end. I guess if it collapses and planned economies rise out of its ashes, that's just evolution. Not revolution.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 12:24:21 GMT
Is capitalism the only correct answer? No, but abolishing capitalism definitely isn't the answer. I believe in equality of opportunity for all and state ownership of key industries and infrastructure. I'm a socialist, and when Jeremy Corbyn was elected Labour Party leader I was delighted. However, socialism does not equal the abolition of capitalism. Whenever any country has attempted to do away with the market economy or private property entirely it has either been abandoned very quickly or resulted in disaster. Educational resources, presented as the correct answer, produced by groups who espouse the abolition of capitalism, should be nowhere near our schools. This. And the policies that were in line with most democratic socialist countries were labelled as “Marxist” mainly by those who have no concept of Marxism. And we are where we are.... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2020 12:27:06 GMT
If 'extreme material' is being presented as the only correct answer, then I'd absolutely agree. The same applies to all forms of extremism, hate speech, racial and religious bigotry etc. But I'm not sure that what appears to be a blanket ban on anything that might argue against capitalism, even if the material is not extreme, but might be perceived to support or imply support for extreme organisations as that article states, is the way forward. To me it appears to imply that we have collectively decided as a nation that capitalism is the only answer and any dissent "vill not be tolerated..." There have been plenty of societies that have existed since civilisation started 12,000 years ago that have managed without capitalism... What next? We're not allowed to even discuss whether certain religions might not be as peaceful as they first claim, through an analysis of non-extreme material, because that's not the right answer? Dangerous ground. (I feel I should reiterate before the usual nutters get too excited that I'm not advocating the abolition of capitalism, I'm merely commenting on the point of the thread, that is the possible banning of anti-capitalist material from schools and the possible implications of doing so). Normally when countries in South America or the Middle East ban “anti capitalist” material the likes of Britain and the USA impose economic sanctions, then bomb the shit out of them and plunder their natural resources...... |
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Post by spitthedog on Sept 29, 2020 12:49:12 GMT
Yes, so as a course text book, if you were studying philosophy or some such subject, it'd be fine. In fact, it'd be crazy not to have it as one of the set texts, given its influence. But what is slightly disturbing about that report is that it says the material itself doesn't have to be extreme. So, if you accept that Das Kapital as a recognised philosophical work is not in the same league as Mein Kampf or Gadaffi's Green Book, doesn't the reported approach provide a reason to ban it as "the use of it could imply support or endorsement [of extreme organisations]". I would hope that it'd never get that far and the relevant educational authorities would be smart enough to recognise the distinction, but the potential for abuse is there. And let's not add in using certain religious texts as educational resources which might not be considered extreme in themselves but are used by extreme organisations....goose and gander and all that... I personally think a mountain is being made out of a molehill. I'd imagine this has come about as a result of a small number of teachers using educational resources provided by groups such as mermaids or BLM, and using them in an uncritical way; presenting them as 'truth' or the 'answer' on issues over which there is strong debate. I think a lot of it comes down to your interpretation of what constitutes an 'educational resource'. For me, that's anything that purports to give a student the 'correct' answer. Where there is no correct answer that is a dangerous thing. But then this needs to be clarified. Teachers need clarification, reference to anti-capitalistic material is extremely ambiguous and potentially includes very wide ranging materials. A lot of environmental material challenge capitalist models (of which there are more than one) You could say David Attenborough's material questions capitalism. You could not have an even and open debate on something like the Banking Crisis in 2008 and not incorporate alternative economic approaches. I think it's not a mountain out of a molehill for teachers when they are not sure whether they are presenting illegal material or not. The basis for good education is critical thinking as you say. Everything else in that document seems compatible to this, but the capitalist reference is bizarre and worrying because I think it is vague, potentially directly targeting or indirectly implicating a huge number of civil society organisations in ‘extremism’. It may work out to be a mountain out of a molehill but it's always important that these things to be able to be challenged. |
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