MON has performed a miracle now the hard job begins

[ted1965]

It’s been another rollercoaster season following Stoke City, it never gets any less stressful but everyone breathed a huge sigh of relief and can now look forward to another Championship campaign when for so long it appeared we were heading backwards I time to the horrors of league one. I hope those in high places don’t think just appointing MON gets them off every hook for the disasters that have been played out since 2016. I am sure everyone is congratulating themselves but real changes still need to be carried out.

The club still has so much work to do because they have taken so many steps backwards over the last few years. They have fallen on their feet again with the selection of MON as manager and thankfully they did because otherwise next season could have been apocalyptic. He has done an amazing job somehow getting a broken squad to retain our place with a game to spare.

When O’Neill walked through the door we were like a punch drunk boxer scrambling on the canvas for his gum shield as the referee counted 7, he pulled the punch drink boxer together and gave him confidence again. Then the lock-down came and once more the boxer staggered seemingly unable to defend himself but this master tactician reminded him that he could defend himself and actually had attacking skills of his own. MON has pulled this club from the brink of disaster his ability to get a tune out of what had looked a broken fiddle with very little tune left in it has been nothing short of a miracle.

Nathan Jones looked like a broken man more and more as the weeks went by and yet the board stood back and took no action. I understand we had sacked three managers in a short space of time but it was obvious once the squad had been put together couldn’t play the system he wanted them to play. The players looked just as confused as the manager and it was very obvious the two just were not going to get the confusion sorted out before we were dead and buried. Jones has redeemed his tattered reputation on firmer ground back at Luton but what he left here at Stoke City was criminal by football standards. It may not have been all his fault but the reality was he wasn’t able to fathom out the mess he had help create.

MON arrived and within weeks players who looked very ordinary were elevated to much more acceptable levels but possibly not really suitable for long term solutions to a brighter future over the next few years. It’s now up to the club to give him as much support as they are allowed under the ridiculous FFP rules. These rules like most things were supposed to level the playing field a little in football but of course they have done no such thing.

So next season could be tougher than this season off the field for the club, we need real changes so we can move forward as one, backroom, players and the supporters. We were promised wholesale changes after relegation but they never actually happened, now we have found a man with a vision it’s time to give him a backroom support network that can allow his vision to move forward. I am sure MON knows who fits into the system he wants to employ, the question is can the club provide the tools needed to make his job successful. It seems he may have decided who within the squad fit into his vision but can he move those who don’t on before he improves his squad.

We need a squad with more power and pace in it; we need proper full backs that can do all aspects of their job efficiently. We don’t need players who had a good profile 4 years ago but are now just winding down their careers and see Stoke as a final stop to the retirement home. I know we have benefited from such players in the past but the pace of football has moved so fast one or two are fine to add experienced heads to a squad but not as the mainstays of the squad.

A mass clear-out is very difficult as we have found out over the last 3 years, when you sign players on long term contracts with very little re-sale value, who the hell wants them apart from on loan. They have fallen so far in their standing that many clubs aren’t even willing to take a chance on them or pay them anywhere near what they are on here so why would they take a pay cut when they can bleed more money from the clubs coffers here. If they had real drive or ambition they would have done a better job here or on loan. So few players now have the attitude of I need to play, I need to succeed and I want to show people what I can do. So many players are just content to increase their bank balances rather than look for pastures new to showcase their abilities. It seems for a period of time we collected such players like a blind Panini card collector.

We need to bring youngsters through who are ready for fist team football, yes a few have emerged but after so much time you would have hoped for more players pushing for a first team place. Of course any youngsters that emerge will be immediately under the scrutiny of bigger clubs or at least more successful clubs right now. I worry that Campbell will be targeted by a bottom half Premier League clubs, if this happens we need to ensure we get value for money, other clubs get ridiculous valuations for potential over finished article this is something we have failed at so often over the years. That for me is just another failing of those behind the scenes.

We have by whatever means found a good manager and he has saved the blushes of so many at this football club and we need to ensure he now has the best possible chance to take the club forward again.
The manager talks well but the most important thing for me is he backs it up, so many people have sat there and talked a great game but the reality was very different MON talks well, knows what he wants to achieve and then sends out a team prepared, confident in what they are meant to be doing and it works. We also score goals, it’s not just negative stale football grab a goal and hope we can hang on, he wants to score goals and entertain the public whether they are there or not.

I also like the way he is prepared to criticise poor performances when they happen, no excuses just the plain unvarnished reality for me that’s a breath of fresh air I am so tired of hearing we were unlucky when a blind man could see we were garbage and the players needed a good dose of reality rather than stroking their precious egos. I think that’s half the problem some of these so called quality players have been living on reputation alone and needed to understand where they are right now. He seems to have revived several dead horses that looked like they needed flogging but sadly they wouldn’t have any takers apart from the glue factory. It’s a good job for some of them we didn’t have Mick Quinn as manager or they would have been starved to death in their stables.

While it’s nowhere near perfect but he’s made supporters feel we can compete again and score goals the way things had been going under Jones the only way you could watch the game was through half closed eyes and clenched teeth waiting for the next keystone cop moment of defending. There is still a lot of work to do but I think finally we have a man who can achieve what we as supporters were hoping for after relegation.
I am looking forward to next season and I can honestly admit that wasn’t something I could say back in October last year, there seemed little in the future but a desperate battle to return to the Championship but MON changed all that and now we can look forward with a little hope to a better few years, I am not expecting to run away with the league because we know how difficult it will be just to reach the play offs but considering the points per game since MON took over we would have been pretty close this season had he been here from the beginning.

There are still plenty of issues to deal with as the roller coaster hell ride of the last few seasons have proved and apart from a little window dressing nothing much has changed. They fell on their feet finally with MON but if he continues to do well Premier League clubs who are
struggling will begin to take notice of the job he’s done here and before with Northern Ireland, the only missing piece for many of them will be he hadn’t shown it at club level in England other than that he would have a perfect CV for a struggling Premier League club half way through next season. I have no idea if he would welcome such a challenge but given the turbulence we have gone through to get him here I don’t have a lot of faith in the process to replace him should the worse come true. I am not being negative just realistic as football has taught me many times over the last 50 years. I have a feeling MON sees this as a long term project and if he turns it around and takes us back to the top flight he can pretty much write his own CV for any further projects he has in mind.

[Bagwash]

Superb post as always Ted.
My only fear also about MON is if a bigger or better placed club come in for him.I honestly believe with him at the helm then the future is looking bright.

[Deleted]

Jul 24, 2020 7:53:05 GMT Bagwash said:

Superb post as always Ted.
My only fear also about MON is if a bigger or better placed club come in for him.I honestly believe with him at the helm then the future is looking bright.

O'Neill must feel he's at the dawn of very special team, his first team in English pro football. He's not being frustrated by an unsupportive board (or overcritical supporters), and in their own way players are (beginning to) responding to him in potentially spectacular fashion; not there yet, but he'll be seeing things starting to form the way he was hoping to. Actual success, something to "celebrate" may be a lot further down the line (or may never fully happen), but the beginnings are starting to look good.

I don't see him abandoning that first team experience. He's looking to build something with players already here, not least the unusually large number of younger players at his disposal.

Of course there are bigger clubs in the universe, but just how many of those would look to replace their superstar manager with an as yet not successful ex-NI manager? Can you see Spurs, once they sack Mourinho, call in O'Neill? Would Citeh, once Pep burns out, have O'Neill in mind? Would Arsenal tempt fate by bringing in someone from an enemy? I just don't see that happening.

More plausible clubs do exist, such as Leicester, Burnley, Norwich, Wolves, but they are pretty fond of their respective managers. If he went to Watford, he's be moving out mere weeks after he moved in.

I'm sure O'Neill can see for himself that there are still bigger clubs such as Villa but he wouldn't be having as supportive a board as he has here, so barring some as yet unknown unsolvable crisis, there really is no way he'll be tempted, at least not for a couple of years. Then all sorts of things can be different.

[chigstoke]

I would’ve read the OP but I’m at work, and by the time I’d finished it’d be clocking off time

But I do love a good in depth post, so will have a full read later OP

[mrcoke]

I agree with OP.
I think the problems at Stoke run very deep. I 'm not just thinking of a succession of failed managers till MON's appointment, there are issues with IT, ticketing, catering, access and egress from the ground which sees the ground starting to empty with 20 minutes to go. It took years of procrastination till they filled in the uncompleted corner just before relegation!
The massively generous contracts they have handed out to old or unproven players is shocking and could still see us in trouble with finances.
The top priority for me is to give MON a new contract and make sure the playing side of the business is kept on course.
But the club owners have got to admit they have made a pig's breakfast of running many aspects of the club and they need a new man at the top who knows what they are doing to run the overall administration to a lot higher standard.

[ohbottom]

There's no doubting the fantastic job MoN has done turning us around. Arguably the job he's done was not dissimilar to the role of NI manager - getting the most out of a fixed pool of players.

The coming task is quite different, and something he's never really done before. He has to play the market and find players to build his own team, one which hopefully will be looking up rather than down. It's a different skill-set, and to a degree his hands will be tied as we've got loads of dead wood to get rid of to make room for the new players I'm sure he'd like to bring in.

Will be interesting to see how he goes about building his team and the quality of player he is able to attract.

[Deleted]

Half his job is managing the players he has got and he is brilliant at that

The other half is getting in the right sort of players and we just don't know if he can do that

If he can buy ,as shrewdly as he coaches , he can be a great manager.

[CBUFAWKIPWH]

Some good points but I do see some things differently.

We've had three squad overhauls in three years and as a result we've gone into three successive seasons half baked as a team and struggled from the start. We can argue all day about individual players not being good enough but for me the underlying problem is that we've struggled to get the team to function as a team - and first and foremost the teams that succeed in this league are those who are better than the sum of their parts.

Having finally got us functioning properly as a team the last thing we need now is yet another major rebuilding exercise - we need to tweak what we have got and rebuild over 2 or 3 seasons. If we do get promoted along the way we'll be in far better place to attract quality players than we are now anyway so biding our time makes more sense. If O'Neill is constrained by FFP that may not be a bad thing.

We definitely need to get rid of those out on loan but that really isn't O'Neill's problem. He's already made it clear who is surplus to requirements and if the club has any sense they'll sort that out in the background and let O'Neill focus on the first team.

In terms of O'Neill going elsewhere I'm not too worried. His track record is one of loyalty to his employers and the honourable way in which the club handled the NI situation could well pay dividends on that front. There's no doubt he wants to make it in the Premier League but he looks to me like a man on a mission and that mission involves Stoke City - I love the way he has been almost dismissive of staying up and all his talk post lockdown has been about next season.

Next season may well be hard work but the hard work has already started - the worst thing we could do is throw it all away on a new pack of Panini stickers.

[Gary Hackett]

Jul 24, 2020 10:00:23 GMT @kingsman said:

Half his job is managing the players he has got and he is brilliant at that

The other half is getting in the right sort of players and we just don't know if he can do that

If he can buy ,as shrewdly as he coaches , he can be a great manager.

Like you say we know he's a good man manager and coach from what he's already done here and with NI.

What we don't know is how good he'll be in the transfer market, if he can get this right I have no doubt we'll be a premier league club again within a couple of years.

I'm looking forward to seeing how all this plays out, and for the first time in 3 years I'm looking forward to the new season.

[mrcoke]

Jul 24, 2020 10:23:00 GMT CBUFAWKIPWH said:

Some good points but I do see some things differently.

We've had three squad overhauls in three years and as a result we've gone into three successive seasons half baked as a team and struggled from the start. We can argue all day about individual players not being good enough but for me the underlying problem is that we've struggled to get the team to function as a team - and first and foremost the teams that succeed in this league are those who are better than the sum of their parts.

Having finally got us functioning properly as a team the last thing we need now is yet another major rebuilding exercise - we need to tweak what we have got and rebuild over 2 or 3 seasons. If we do get promoted along the way we'll be in far better place to attract quality players than we are now anyway so biding our time makes more sense. If O'Neill is constrained by FFP that may not be a bad thing.

We definitely need to get rid of those out on loan but that really isn't O'Neill's problem. He's already made it clear who is surplus to requirements and if the club has any sense they'll sort that out in the background and let O'Neill focus on the first team.

In terms of O'Neill going elsewhere I'm not too worried. His track record is one of loyalty to his employers and the honourable way in which the club handled the NI situation could well pay dividends on that front. There's no doubt he wants to make it in the Premier League but he looks to me like a man on a mission and that mission involves Stoke City - I love the way he has been almost dismissive of staying up and all his talk post lockdown has been about next season.

Next season may well be hard work but the hard work has already started - the worst thing we could do is throw it all away on a new pack of Panini stickers.

Excellent post.
Contrary to another post above , 90% of any managers job is getting the best out of the resources at his disposal. Most nanagers do not have the luxury of changing much of their resources.
Players have contracts for years and managers are largely stuck with them. Rowett was very lucky to spend £50 million, and Jones brought in a lot of poor cheap players.
Since MON arrived he has got us scoring at at a play-off team level, if he can get Ince playing well, we will be alright attacking.
Defending is our problem. That is as much about organisation as individual talent. I sure MON will continue to improve our defending and has been rotating defenders until recent games, trying to find what works best.
He needs to get this area sorted and we will be alright. Our problems are we have slow players, can't mark, can't turn quickly, and we don't have a decent defensive MF. If we could get or develop a Whelan and get a quality LB, we would improve significantly.
We don't have to improve much to be a play-off team.
You are absolutely right, it's synergy we need, by tweaking the parts not right, not a major overhaul.

[spitthedog]

You should start a blog.

Acid test will be recruitment.....getting the right players in and out....Big Decisions!!!

[CBUFAWKIPWH]

Jul 24, 2020 11:47:11 GMT mrcoke said:

Jul 24, 2020 10:23:00 GMT CBUFAWKIPWH said:

Some good points but I do see some things differently.

We've had three squad overhauls in three years and as a result we've gone into three successive seasons half baked as a team and struggled from the start. We can argue all day about individual players not being good enough but for me the underlying problem is that we've struggled to get the team to function as a team - and first and foremost the teams that succeed in this league are those who are better than the sum of their parts.

Having finally got us functioning properly as a team the last thing we need now is yet another major rebuilding exercise - we need to tweak what we have got and rebuild over 2 or 3 seasons. If we do get promoted along the way we'll be in far better place to attract quality players than we are now anyway so biding our time makes more sense. If O'Neill is constrained by FFP that may not be a bad thing.

We definitely need to get rid of those out on loan but that really isn't O'Neill's problem. He's already made it clear who is surplus to requirements and if the club has any sense they'll sort that out in the background and let O'Neill focus on the first team.

In terms of O'Neill going elsewhere I'm not too worried. His track record is one of loyalty to his employers and the honourable way in which the club handled the NI situation could well pay dividends on that front. There's no doubt he wants to make it in the Premier League but he looks to me like a man on a mission and that mission involves Stoke City - I love the way he has been almost dismissive of staying up and all his talk post lockdown has been about next season.

Next season may well be hard work but the hard work has already started - the worst thing we could do is throw it all away on a new pack of Panini stickers.

Excellent post.
Contrary to another post above , 90% of any managers job is getting the best out of the resources at his disposal. Most nanagers do not have the luxury of changing much of their resources.
Players have contracts for years and managers are largely stuck with them. Rowett was very lucky to spend £50 million, and Jones brought in a lot of poor cheap players.
Since MON arrived he has got us scoring at at a play-off team level, if he can get Ince playing well, we will be alright attacking.
Defending is our problem. That is as much about organisation as individual talent. I sure MON will continue to improve our defending and has been rotating defenders until recent games, trying to find what works best.
He needs to get this area sorted and we will be alright. Our problems are we have slow players, can't mark, can't turn quickly, and we don't have a decent defensive MF. If we could get or develop a Whelan and get a quality LB, we would improve significantly.
We don't have to improve much to be a play-off team.
You are absolutely right, it's synergy we need, by tweaking the parts not right, not a major overhaul.

The drop off in the quality in players brought in by Rowett and Jones is as much down to our situation as the ability of the manager's to deal in the market - and the situation for O'Neill is even worse - the unfortunate truth is that unless we get promoted this is probably as good as it gets. As you say 90% of the manager's job is to get the best out of what you've got and the encouraging thing is that our problems are down to an under performing squad - if O'Neill can get this group of players performing to their potential I think we are good enough to put in a promotion challenge and our points haul since Xmas demonstrates this perfectly doable with the players we have.

You are right in that if we are going to go into the market the spend has to go into the defence and in particular address the issues at right and left back. I'm not too concerned about centre back, especially if BMI were to stay - perm 2 out of BMI, Batth, Collins and (a hopefully fit) Shawcross and I think we are fine. Having said that the biggest issue for me is confidence in the goalkeeper - we simply have to ditch Butland. Davies has looked good and the defence look so much more confident with him in goal.

I genuinely think the insistence that how O'Neill does with the market this preseason is key to our success is completely wrong. The preseason before we got relegated (and the one before) were the times for a major rebuild and we missed the boat. With FFP and a curtailed preseason a major over haul really isn't an option - I can't see anything more than a couple of first teamers and a couple of squad players coming in anyway.

As the song says - you have to know when to hold them, know when to fold them...