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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 17, 2023 18:50:29 GMT
Ah, but better to concentrate on one outlier if you want to have a go at Starmer. That also ignores the huge, unrealistic polling lead that Labour enjoyed while Truss and Kwarteng were destroying both the country and the Tory party, a lead which was always going to reduce as soon as they managed to retake the asylum from the lunatics who'd taken it over. The path they're treading seems eminently sensible to me. If the Tories and their client press manage to portray Labour as promoting the strikes, that lead will shrink rapidly. The public might be sympathetic towards the strikers at the moment but it won't last. I do wonder about some people. They seem to want Labour to be unelectable more than they want the Tories out of government. I mean, I understand that Starmer's Labour may not be your idea of the perfect Labour party or government, but it's got to be better than what's been happening for the last dozen years, and other versions of the Labour party haven't proved exactly electable during that period! A bit of pragmatism wouldn't go amiss. Tory Lite, Blue Labour. Perfect đ¤Ž
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jan 17, 2023 19:19:18 GMT
Tory Lite, Blue Labour. Perfect 𤎠Coming soon đđ All about preferences, of course. But a return to sensible pragmatism with a slight lean to the left will do us all the world of good.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 17, 2023 20:45:55 GMT
Coming soon đđ All about preferences, of course. But a return to sensible pragmatism with a slight lean to the left will do us all the world of good. It will change nothing unfortunately.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jan 17, 2023 21:36:58 GMT
Coming soon đđ All about preferences, of course. But a return to sensible pragmatism with a slight lean to the left will do us all the world of good. It will change nothing unfortunately. Behave now. A harder form of left may be more desired for some, but to suggest that a Starmer-led government would change nothing to the current incumbent and what we've all put up with since the collapse of the coalition Gov in 2015 isn't justifiable. You can't change anything from the sidelines.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 17, 2023 21:41:22 GMT
It will change nothing unfortunately. Behave now. A harder form of left may be more desired for some, but to suggest that a Starmer-led government would change nothing to the current incumbent and what we've all put up with since the collapse of the coalition Gov in 2015 isn't justifiable. You can't change anything from the sidelines. He's a waste of space. Even a majority of Tory voters now support some level of nationalisation. Not Keith though. Oh no not for Right Wing Keith. Too busy expelling socialist Jews most likely.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 18, 2023 12:49:28 GMT
Pretty much where I am in regards Starmer I was getting an ear bashing yesterday from a self employed lady whose business suffered dreadfully during the pandemic. She has everything sympathy for nurses who had extra and more arduous duties during the pandemic, but one of her customers is a train driver. She was livid that train drivers had a long holiday in the pandemic on furlough, and today train journeys are down 20%. She was put to huge inconvenience recently finding an alternative way to get to London due to an ASLEF strike. Her train driver customer was telling her he gets ÂŁ400 a day when there is no train to drive, had a long holiday over Christmas, and is refusing to take on extra duties that other rail employees should do. I decided to do a bit of digging to find out what train drivers earn : www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eurI'm not surprised Starmer is keeping his mouth shut.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 18, 2023 13:06:52 GMT
Pretty much where I am in regards Starmer I was getting an ear bashing yesterday from a self employed lady whose business suffered dreadfully during the pandemic. She has everything sympathy for nurses who had extra and more arduous duties during the pandemic, but one of her customers is a train driver. She was livid that train drivers had a long holiday in the pandemic on furlough, and today train journeys are down 20%. She was put to huge inconvenience recently finding an alternative way to get to London due to an ASLEF strike. Her train driver customer was telling her he gets ÂŁ400 a day when there is no train to drive, had a long holiday over Christmas, and is refusing to take on extra duties that other rail employees should do. I decided to do a bit of digging to find out what train drivers earn : www.euronews.com/travel/2022/12/23/train-strikes-these-are-the-countries-that-pay-train-drivers-the-most-and-the-least-in-eurI'm not surprised Starmer is keeping his mouth shut. A few things The chap in the video of the post you quoted doesn't represent train drivers. The train drivers dispute is not solely around pay There were some other things that went on covid that were rather more egregious than people legally taking furlough don't you think? Like a Tory member of the House of Lords defrauding the country for several hundred millions of pounds but lets pile on workers eh? Don't be conned.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 20, 2023 8:42:36 GMT
Imagine voting for this cunt.
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Post by theonlooker on Jan 20, 2023 9:17:28 GMT
Imagine voting for this cunt. He had to think about Mushy Peas didn't he, the Tory c*nt.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 21, 2023 9:06:30 GMT
Good God.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 21, 2023 9:47:31 GMT
Starmer is a Tory plant.
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Post by felonious on Jan 21, 2023 9:59:51 GMT
Thanks that's going to have me chuckling for the rest of the day I strongly suspect he's more of a Blair, Campbell and Mandleson plant if that makes it any more acceptable. Say nowt, Tory sleeze, sleeze, sleeze, get in, Socialist lite policies, get in again, get back into the EU by one way or another......
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 21, 2023 10:54:55 GMT
Iâd have to disagree Heâs more Tory than the current Toryâs Heâs more of a WEF stooge happily parading around davos happily showing his arse to anyone whoâll listen
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2023 11:07:39 GMT
Thanks that's going to have me chuckling for the rest of the day I strongly suspect he's more of a Blair, Campbell and Mandleson plant if that makes it any more acceptable. Say nowt, Tory sleeze, sleeze, sleeze, get in, Socialist lite policies, get in again, get back into the EU by one way or another...... Sounds about right. And, on the back of that, let's hope the country moves in a better direction for healthcare and education and all the other stuff that ordinary people rely on daily, as was the case under the last Labour administration. Instead of the way the country goes whenever your preferred option is in charge. Like now and the last thirteen years, for example.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 21, 2023 11:21:10 GMT
Another day, another Starmer disappointment..........
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 21, 2023 11:25:08 GMT
Thanks that's going to have me chuckling for the rest of the day I strongly suspect he's more of a Blair, Campbell and Mandleson plant if that makes it any more acceptable. Say nowt, Tory sleeze, sleeze, sleeze, get in, Socialist lite policies, get in again, get back into the EU by one way or another...... let's hope the country moves in a better direction Lets hope the Davos Massive and his bestie, Piers Morgan want that as well.
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Post by OldStokie on Jan 21, 2023 11:28:19 GMT
Thanks that's going to have me chuckling for the rest of the day I strongly suspect he's more of a Blair, Campbell and Mandleson plant if that makes it any more acceptable. Say nowt, Tory sleeze, sleeze, sleeze, get in, Socialist lite policies, get in again, get back into the EU by one way or another...... Sounds about right. And, on the back of that, let's hope the country moves in a better direction for healthcare and education and all the other stuff that ordinary people rely on daily, as was the case under the last Labour administration. Instead of the way the country goes whenever your preferred option is in charge. Like now and the last thirteen years, for example. I agree. I despise Starmer but I'll still vote Labour because anything... ANYTHING is better than the corrupt bunch of twats in power now. And when/if Labour is in power then we really can give the backstabbing bastard some stick if he continues with Tory policies. OS.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2023 13:24:32 GMT
Sounds about right. And, on the back of that, let's hope the country moves in a better direction for healthcare and education and all the other stuff that ordinary people rely on daily, as was the case under the last Labour administration. Instead of the way the country goes whenever your preferred option is in charge. Like now and the last thirteen years, for example. I agree. I despise Starmer but I'll still vote Labour because anything... ANYTHING is better than the corrupt bunch of twats in power now. And when/if Labour is in power then we really can give the backstabbing bastard some stick if he continues with Tory policies. OS. Well said. Exactly the kind of pragmatic approach to the whole thing that will hopefully see off this appalling, corrupt shower that we've endured for the last 13 years.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 22, 2023 12:17:19 GMT
I agree. I despise Starmer but I'll still vote Labour because anything... ANYTHING is better than the corrupt bunch of twats in power now. And when/if Labour is in power then we really can give the backstabbing bastard some stick if he continues with Tory policies. OS. Well said. Exactly the kind of pragmatic approach to the whole thing that will hopefully see off this appalling, corrupt shower that we've endured for the last 13 years. Living in Stoke South where the Tories still have a chance of winning (I think the other two oafs will be driven out of town with ease) its something I wrestle with on a daily basis. On the one hand if I vote Labour I wont be able to look at myself in the mirror afterwards but if Wee Jack gets back in by a vote I would have to throw myself in the cut! Its time for PR where you can vote with you conscience and you vote still has value.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2023 8:59:19 GMT
Well said. Exactly the kind of pragmatic approach to the whole thing that will hopefully see off this appalling, corrupt shower that we've endured for the last 13 years. Living in Stoke South where the Tories still have a chance of winning (I think the other two oafs will be driven out of town with ease) its something I wrestle with on a daily basis. On the one hand if I vote Labour I wont be able to look at myself in the mirror afterwards but if Wee Jack gets back in by a vote I would have to throw myself in the cut! Its time for PR where you can vote with you conscience and you vote still has value. Christian Wakeford is my (Labour) MP with a 402 (Conservative) majority. Should be fun.........
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 23, 2023 9:21:55 GMT
Behave now. A harder form of left may be more desired for some, but to suggest that a Starmer-led government would change nothing to the current incumbent and what we've all put up with since the collapse of the coalition Gov in 2015 isn't justifiable. You can't change anything from the sidelines. He's a waste of space. Even a majority of Tory voters now support some level of nationalisation. Not Keith though. Oh no not for Right Wing Keith. Too busy expelling socialist Jews most likely. Corbyn was undoubtedly left wing and he lost two elections. I think the electorate has shifted somewhat to the left since then (certainly economically and perhaps socially too). Perhaps Starmer knows he needs to also move slowly to get elected. Had they switched order of when they were leaders, brexit may not have happened, Starmer may have won an election, and Corbyn could be to follow. But who knows.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2023 9:31:28 GMT
He's a waste of space. Even a majority of Tory voters now support some level of nationalisation. Not Keith though. Oh no not for Right Wing Keith. Too busy expelling socialist Jews most likely. Corbyn was undoubtedly left wing and he lost two elections. I think the electorate has shifted somewhat to the left since then (certainly economically and perhaps socially too). Perhaps Starmer knows he needs to also move slowly to get elected. Had they switched order of when they were leaders, brexit may not have happened, Starmer may have won an election, and Corbyn could be to follow. But who knows. Starmer's too much of an establishment man to do anything other than tinker round the edges. You're right when you say there would be an appetite for a genuine left wing Democratic Socialist party though, I think those who say otherwise are wrong. Combine Labour's 2017 manifesto (not 2019 when they got carried away on the back of the Brexit debacle) with a leader that has the left wing principles of Corbyn but willing to stand and fight against the bullshit that's thrown at him/her (a Mick Lynch type) and you're away. Or at least a compromise with someone such as Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham who are probably less principled but more pragmatic in moving to the left........
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jan 23, 2023 10:48:24 GMT
Living in Stoke South where the Tories still have a chance of winning (I think the other two oafs will be driven out of town with ease) its something I wrestle with on a daily basis. On the one hand if I vote Labour I wont be able to look at myself in the mirror afterwards but if Wee Jack gets back in by a vote I would have to throw myself in the cut! Its time for PR where you can vote with you conscience and you vote still has value. Christian Wakeford is my (Labour) MP with a 402 (Conservative) majority. Should be fun......... Good Lord, what a choice!
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 23, 2023 13:15:30 GMT
Corbyn was undoubtedly left wing and he lost two elections. I think the electorate has shifted somewhat to the left since then (certainly economically and perhaps socially too). Perhaps Starmer knows he needs to also move slowly to get elected. Had they switched order of when they were leaders, brexit may not have happened, Starmer may have won an election, and Corbyn could be to follow. But who knows. Starmer's too much of an establishment man to do anything other than tinker round the edges. You're right when you say there would be an appetite for a genuine left wing Democratic Socialist party though, I think those who say otherwise are wrong. Combine Labour's 2017 manifesto (not 2019 when they got carried away on the back of the Brexit debacle) with a leader that has the left wing principles of Corbyn but willing to stand and fight against the bullshit that's thrown at him/her (a Mick Lynch type) and you're away. Or at least a compromise with someone such as Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham who are probably less principled but more pragmatic in moving to the left........ Creating a state owned green energy company certainly is not âtinkering around the edgesâ. It is a move Corbyn might have done (if he has green credentials- I am not sure). Whilst I wouldnât be upset with the type of government you describe, I donât believe they can get elected in this country at this time. Starmer can move the status quo to at least the middle, and perhaps a bit left of centre. If all is going well, that could open the door to a more left wing leader and PM.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jan 23, 2023 13:28:02 GMT
Starmer's too much of an establishment man to do anything other than tinker round the edges. You're right when you say there would be an appetite for a genuine left wing Democratic Socialist party though, I think those who say otherwise are wrong. Combine Labour's 2017 manifesto (not 2019 when they got carried away on the back of the Brexit debacle) with a leader that has the left wing principles of Corbyn but willing to stand and fight against the bullshit that's thrown at him/her (a Mick Lynch type) and you're away. Or at least a compromise with someone such as Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham who are probably less principled but more pragmatic in moving to the left........ Creating a state owned green energy company certainly is not âtinkering around the edgesâ. It is a move Corbyn might have done (if he has green credentials- I am not sure). Whilst I wouldnât be upset with the type of government you describe, I donât believe they can get elected in this country at this time. Starmer can move the status quo to at least the middle, and perhaps a bit left of centre. If all is going well, that could open the door to a more left wing leader and PM. If it's done properly yes, as always the devil will be in the detail in the manifesto. I'm interested to see whether his big ideas get watered down bit by bit.............
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 25, 2023 8:32:04 GMT
Corbyn was undoubtedly left wing and he lost two elections. I think the electorate has shifted somewhat to the left since then (certainly economically and perhaps socially too). Perhaps Starmer knows he needs to also move slowly to get elected. Had they switched order of when they were leaders, brexit may not have happened, Starmer may have won an election, and Corbyn could be to follow. But who knows. Starmer's too much of an establishment man to do anything other than tinker round the edges. You're right when you say there would be an appetite for a genuine left wing Democratic Socialist party though, I think those who say otherwise are wrong.Combine Labour's 2017 manifesto (not 2019 when they got carried away on the back of the Brexit debacle) with a leader that has the left wing principles of Corbyn but willing to stand and fight against the bullshit that's thrown at him/her (a Mick Lynch type) and you're away. Or at least a compromise with someone such as Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham who are probably less principled but more pragmatic in moving to the left........ I'm not so sure, I think that might be wishful thinking which doesn't reflect the reality in a FPTP, broadly Conservative country. A lot of people may be despising this particular bunch of Tories (and rightly so) but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're ready to embrace the kind of party political approach and government that you think they are. I'd love to think so but I don't see it. Not least once the press started running daily scare stories. I'd agree that the introduction of PR would certainly encourage people to vote for such a party and that it'd do reasonably well, but until such time that we do, if ever, I think we're stuck with the choice between a vote for the right and a vote for anything other than the right which, if you're pragmatic about it, means being prepared to vote Labour and hope that in power they move the country towards better, more progressive policies. As I've said many times, I admire your political principles, not least your direct involvement in many causes, but on the wider, bigger picture I think I'm prepared to be a bit more pragmatic about things. Perhaps a little less willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater because the bathwater is a couple of degrees below where it should be, especially if to do so means finding that there's now a fat, spoilt, blond baby shitting everywhere in the tub instead!
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 25, 2023 8:34:35 GMT
Creating a state owned green energy company certainly is not âtinkering around the edgesâ. It is a move Corbyn might have done (if he has green credentials- I am not sure). Whilst I wouldnât be upset with the type of government you describe, I donât believe they can get elected in this country at this time. Starmer can move the status quo to at least the middle, and perhaps a bit left of centre. If all is going well, that could open the door to a more left wing leader and PM. If it's done properly yes, as always the devil will be in the detail in the manifesto. I'm interested to see whether his big ideas get watered down bit by bit............. If I'm not mistaken, it does not include bringing utilities back into public ownership?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jan 25, 2023 8:38:33 GMT
Starmer's too much of an establishment man to do anything other than tinker round the edges. You're right when you say there would be an appetite for a genuine left wing Democratic Socialist party though, I think those who say otherwise are wrong.Combine Labour's 2017 manifesto (not 2019 when they got carried away on the back of the Brexit debacle) with a leader that has the left wing principles of Corbyn but willing to stand and fight against the bullshit that's thrown at him/her (a Mick Lynch type) and you're away. Or at least a compromise with someone such as Clive Lewis or Andy Burnham who are probably less principled but more pragmatic in moving to the left........ I'm not so sure, I think that might be wishful thinking which doesn't reflect the reality in a FPTP, broadly Conservative country. A lot of people may be despising this particular bunch of Tories (and rightly so) but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're ready to embrace the kind of party political approach and government that you think they are. I'd love to think so but I don't see it. Not least once the press started running daily scare stories. I'd agree that the introduction of PR would certainly encourage people to vote for such a party and that it'd do reasonably well, but until such time that we do, if ever, I think we're stuck with the choice between a vote for the right and a vote for anything other than the right which, if you're pragmatic about it, means being prepared to vote Labour and hope that in power they move the country towards better, more progressive policies. As I've said many times, I admire your political principles, not least your direct involvement in many causes, but on the wider, bigger picture I think I'm prepared to be a bit more pragmatic about things. Perhaps a little less willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater because the bathwater is a couple of degrees below where it should be, especially if to do so means finding that there's now a fat, spoilt, blond baby shitting everywhere in the tub instead! When the majority of voters didn't vote Conservative, it's not a broadly Conservative country, sorry. It also strengthens the case for PR, which for some reason Starmer wants to avoid.
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 25, 2023 9:00:09 GMT
I'm not so sure, I think that might be wishful thinking which doesn't reflect the reality in a FPTP, broadly Conservative country. A lot of people may be despising this particular bunch of Tories (and rightly so) but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're ready to embrace the kind of party political approach and government that you think they are. I'd love to think so but I don't see it. Not least once the press started running daily scare stories. I'd agree that the introduction of PR would certainly encourage people to vote for such a party and that it'd do reasonably well, but until such time that we do, if ever, I think we're stuck with the choice between a vote for the right and a vote for anything other than the right which, if you're pragmatic about it, means being prepared to vote Labour and hope that in power they move the country towards better, more progressive policies. As I've said many times, I admire your political principles, not least your direct involvement in many causes, but on the wider, bigger picture I think I'm prepared to be a bit more pragmatic about things. Perhaps a little less willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater because the bathwater is a couple of degrees below where it should be, especially if to do so means finding that there's now a fat, spoilt, blond baby shitting everywhere in the tub instead! When the majority of voters didn't vote Conservative, it's not a broadly Conservative country, sorry. It also strengthens the case for PR, which for some reason Starmer wants to avoid. Starmer wants to avoid PR (which I think is a good thing ) solely because he believes labour can win a majority If by a slim chance the Toryâs win the next election the unprincipled charlatan will be all over PR like a tramp over a can of white lightning
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Post by oggyoggy on Jan 25, 2023 9:05:54 GMT
If it's done properly yes, as always the devil will be in the detail in the manifesto. I'm interested to see whether his big ideas get watered down bit by bit............. If I'm not mistaken, it does not include bringing utilities back into public ownership? No it doesnât. It would be the most expensive time in history to nationalise utilities. What is much smarter is to create a state owned green energy company and to make that the cheapest electricity provider, which isnât hard when you can regulate the fossil fuel companies and when electricity is currently linked to gas prices. If you de-link the prices but only for electricity produced in a green way, then everyone will want their electricity from the state company. Gas will slowly be phased out when gas boilers stop being installed, which wonât be long. Water companies need massive regulation to get them under control and to reign in profiteering and pollution. Inevitably they will then devalue and the state can take control perhaps. If Labour announces now they want to nationalise water, the water companies will be rubbing their hands with glee. We need them at their own expense to clean up the mess they have made out of profiteering water. If Starmer suddenly announces lots of Corbyn-esque policies, the tories will be delighted. The electorate need change but are scared of it. So if has to be gradual. Plus Starmer has potentially 2 years to the next election. He needs lots of rabbits in the hat for when it matters. He is already trouncing the tories in the polls. He seems to building slowly but surely towards a Labour majority at the next election. Surely that is a good thing? The most likely way Labour donât win the next election is if Labour turns on itself. Starmer is not left wing and radical enough for many. But he needs to win an election, not have his name chanted at Glastonbury.
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