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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 17, 2022 10:23:57 GMT
The time is coming where some in the current Labour Party will have to make a Choice Do they recognise starmer’s vision as a party they want to be a member of A vote for Starmer is a vote for the status quo, he’ll tinker round the edges so that “progressives” can tell themselves how different he is to the Tories. But ultimately as I’ve always said if the papers decide to give him an easy ride in the next couple of years or even go as far as to endorse him he could quite easily gain power. If the media go hard on him Labour will be obliterated at the next election, the man stands for nothing……..
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 17, 2022 10:52:47 GMT
The time is coming where some in the current Labour Party will have to make a Choice Do they recognise starmer’s vision as a party they want to be a member of A vote for Starmer is a vote for the status quo, he’ll tinker round the edges so that “progressives” can tell themselves how different he is to the Tories. But ultimately as I’ve always said if the papers decide to give him an easy ride in the next couple of years or even go as far as to endorse him he could quite easily gain power. If the media go hard on him Labour will be obliterated at the next election, the man stands for nothing…….. I have to be honest, I can never quite understand your hatred of Starmer! I know he's not Jeremy Corbyn whom you'd massively prefer but surely he's a better alternative to what he have in power and, much more pertinently, a million times more likely to provide an electable alternative than the nature of your preferred opposition? I recognise and admire your principles in sticking to the kind of alternative government you'd wish to see, but, unfortunately, that kind of potential government got obliterated at the polls just over two years ago. More importantly, that kind of potential government isn't going to be elected by England any time soon. So, while I can understand that Starmer isn't your man in no doubt precisely the same way that Blair wasn't your man either, your choice is stark: more Tories like Boris (or worse) or something that you think will perpetuate the "status quo" but might actually improve things for ordinary folk in a way that the Tories never will and in much the same way that Blair's government did in many ways, until the City boys fucked everything up that is. That's not to say that the last Labour government was in any way perfect, no government ever is, some are better than others though. And the fundamental difference is that they are actually in power and therefore able to enact policies. I sometimes wonder whether you want the Tories to remain in power in the hope that everything will eventually get so bad that your alternative will suddenly become blindingly obvious to everyone as the only way forward? If so, this is naive, for two main reasons: one, the right-wing dominated press will never print anything that makes their preferred way look bad (it'll always be the Left's fault - sound familiar?!) and two, people in England don't really care unless it affects them directly.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 17, 2022 11:26:52 GMT
A vote for Starmer is a vote for the status quo, he’ll tinker round the edges so that “progressives” can tell themselves how different he is to the Tories. But ultimately as I’ve always said if the papers decide to give him an easy ride in the next couple of years or even go as far as to endorse him he could quite easily gain power. If the media go hard on him Labour will be obliterated at the next election, the man stands for nothing…….. I have to be honest, I can never quite understand your hatred of Starmer! I know he's not Jeremy Corbyn whom you'd massively prefer but surely he's a better alternative to what he have in power and, much more pertinently, a million times more likely to provide an electable alternative than the nature of your preferred opposition? I recognise and admire your principles in sticking to the kind of alternative government you'd wish to see, but, unfortunately, that kind of potential government got obliterated at the polls just over two years ago. More importantly, that kind of potential government isn't going to be elected by England any time soon. So, while I can understand that Starmer isn't your man in no doubt precisely the same way that Blair wasn't your man either, your choice is stark: more Tories like Boris (or worse) or something that you think will perpetuate the "status quo" but might actually improve things for ordinary folk in a way that the Tories never will and in much the same way that Blair's government did in many ways, until the City boys fucked everything up that is. That's not to say that the last Labour government was in any way perfect, no government ever is, some are better than others though. And the fundamental difference is that they are actually in power and therefore able to enact policies. I sometimes wonder whether you want the Tories to remain in power in the hope that everything will eventually get so bad that your alternative will suddenly become blindingly obvious to everyone as the only way forward? If so, this is naive, for two main reasons: one, the right-wing dominated press will never print anything that makes their preferred way look bad (it'll always be the Left's fault - sound familiar?!) and two, people in England don't really care unless it affects them directly. I actually was very critical of Corbyn in terms of his leadership style at the time, he wanted to lead by consensus which is admirable but very difficult to achieve. With regards the McCarthyite witch hunt from the media and his own PLP I will defend him to the hilt (as I would any politician from any party I might add), it was a disgrace. There is no evidence of Starmer improving anything as it stands, I switch off from the sound bites and listen out for anything of any real note and as yet I’m still waiting. Pandering to the red wall, trying to be tougher than the Tories on crime and immigration, carrying on with a foreign policy that goes from crisis to crisis isn’t a party I’m interested in voting for. I remain happy to be convinced otherwise. New Labour light won’t wash, Scotland has been lost and history shows that the legacy of Blair was wasted opportunities and foreign policy disaster. I don’t accept the binary options of Labour v Tories. I would much rather Labour split and see a proper Social Democratic Party be built up from scratch with the help of the unions and a mass membership movement, it’s not going to win power but done properly it could shake up the political system for future generations. You say that type of government was obliterated in 2019, well yes Brexit was a massive massive issue along with the aforementioned campaign from traitors in his own party particularly to undermine the leader. In the meantime I’ll look at investing time and effort into issues within my local community to try and make a difference that way…….
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 17, 2022 11:49:38 GMT
I have to be honest, I can never quite understand your hatred of Starmer! I know he's not Jeremy Corbyn whom you'd massively prefer but surely he's a better alternative to what he have in power and, much more pertinently, a million times more likely to provide an electable alternative than the nature of your preferred opposition? I recognise and admire your principles in sticking to the kind of alternative government you'd wish to see, but, unfortunately, that kind of potential government got obliterated at the polls just over two years ago. More importantly, that kind of potential government isn't going to be elected by England any time soon. So, while I can understand that Starmer isn't your man in no doubt precisely the same way that Blair wasn't your man either, your choice is stark: more Tories like Boris (or worse) or something that you think will perpetuate the "status quo" but might actually improve things for ordinary folk in a way that the Tories never will and in much the same way that Blair's government did in many ways, until the City boys fucked everything up that is. That's not to say that the last Labour government was in any way perfect, no government ever is, some are better than others though. And the fundamental difference is that they are actually in power and therefore able to enact policies. I sometimes wonder whether you want the Tories to remain in power in the hope that everything will eventually get so bad that your alternative will suddenly become blindingly obvious to everyone as the only way forward? If so, this is naive, for two main reasons: one, the right-wing dominated press will never print anything that makes their preferred way look bad (it'll always be the Left's fault - sound familiar?!) and two, people in England don't really care unless it affects them directly. I actually was very critical of Corbyn in terms of his leadership style at the time, he wanted to lead by consensus which is admirable but very difficult to achieve. With regards the McCarthyite witch hunt from the media and his own PLP I will defend him to the hilt (as I would any politician from any party I might add), it was a disgrace. There is no evidence of Starmer improving anything as it stands, I switch off from the sound bites and listen out for anything of any real note and as yet I’m still waiting. Pandering to the red wall, trying to be tougher than the Tories on crime and immigration, carrying on with a foreign policy that goes from crisis to crisis isn’t a party I’m interested in voting for. I remain happy to be convinced otherwise. New Labour light won’t wash, Scotland has been lost and history shows that the legacy of Blair was wasted opportunities and foreign policy disaster. I don’t accept the binary options of Labour v Tories. I would much rather Labour split and see a proper Social Democratic Party be built up from scratch with the help of the unions and a mass membership movement, it’s not going to win power but done properly it could shake up the political system for future generations. You say that type of government was obliterated in 2019, well yes Brexit was a massive massive issue along with the aforementioned campaign from traitors in his own party particularly to undermine the leader. In the meantime I’ll look at investing time and effort into issues within my local community to try and make a difference that way…….I think we are of a similar mind on this. Being active in your local community and generally doing stuff that helps others is where we as individuals can do some real good. And feel good too. I’m sure you are also aware this was the essence of Thatcher’s (in)famous “No such thing as society” speech which was as badly delivered as it has been disingenuously interpreted over the years.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 17, 2022 13:36:28 GMT
I have to be honest, I can never quite understand your hatred of Starmer! I know he's not Jeremy Corbyn whom you'd massively prefer but surely he's a better alternative to what he have in power and, much more pertinently, a million times more likely to provide an electable alternative than the nature of your preferred opposition? I recognise and admire your principles in sticking to the kind of alternative government you'd wish to see, but, unfortunately, that kind of potential government got obliterated at the polls just over two years ago. More importantly, that kind of potential government isn't going to be elected by England any time soon. So, while I can understand that Starmer isn't your man in no doubt precisely the same way that Blair wasn't your man either, your choice is stark: more Tories like Boris (or worse) or something that you think will perpetuate the "status quo" but might actually improve things for ordinary folk in a way that the Tories never will and in much the same way that Blair's government did in many ways, until the City boys fucked everything up that is. That's not to say that the last Labour government was in any way perfect, no government ever is, some are better than others though. And the fundamental difference is that they are actually in power and therefore able to enact policies. I sometimes wonder whether you want the Tories to remain in power in the hope that everything will eventually get so bad that your alternative will suddenly become blindingly obvious to everyone as the only way forward? If so, this is naive, for two main reasons: one, the right-wing dominated press will never print anything that makes their preferred way look bad (it'll always be the Left's fault - sound familiar?!) and two, people in England don't really care unless it affects them directly. I actually was very critical of Corbyn in terms of his leadership style at the time, he wanted to lead by consensus which is admirable but very difficult to achieve. With regards the McCarthyite witch hunt from the media and his own PLP I will defend him to the hilt (as I would any politician from any party I might add), it was a disgrace. There is no evidence of Starmer improving anything as it stands, I switch off from the sound bites and listen out for anything of any real note and as yet I’m still waiting. Pandering to the red wall, trying to be tougher than the Tories on crime and immigration, carrying on with a foreign policy that goes from crisis to crisis isn’t a party I’m interested in voting for. I remain happy to be convinced otherwise. New Labour light won’t wash, Scotland has been lost and history shows that the legacy of Blair was wasted opportunities and foreign policy disaster. I don’t accept the binary options of Labour v Tories. I would much rather Labour split and see a proper Social Democratic Party be built up from scratch with the help of the unions and a mass membership movement, it’s not going to win power but done properly it could shake up the political system for future generations. You say that type of government was obliterated in 2019, well yes Brexit was a massive massive issue along with the aforementioned campaign from traitors in his own party particularly to undermine the leader. In the meantime I’ll look at investing time and effort into issues within my local community to try and make a difference that way……. Well, Starmer isn't in power so hasn't had any chance to improve things for the country. Meanwhile, after 12 years of Tory government, things have got much, much worse. In terms of the Labour Party, Starmer is moving away from the Corbyn era and sensibly so. First, it's an approach that was patently unelectable to much of England and second it's the only way to put some distance between Starmer's Labour and the whiff of anti-semitism, both sensible approaches if you want to get elected. Once in power you can actually change things. Again, I suspect Starmer wouldn't do anywhere near enough of the things that you'd like to see once in power, but he'd no doubt do a shitload more than the Tories ever will. I struggle to see why this doesn't seem a suitable improvement at the very least! No government is perfect, but some will give you more of what you want than others, and do it better, or at the very least, less badly! Your wish for your kind of social democratic party is noble and principled and spot on when you say it'll never get into power. In which case, all you will have achieved under our current voting system is to further split the non-Tory vote, leading to even less chance of anyone other than the Tories being in power. I'm not quite sure why you think this would be a good state of affairs? Perhaps you think this will advance the cause for PR, or would result in more people voting for parties other than the Tories once they realise how bad things are under them? Again, I doubt it very much, for the reasons I gave above. We should all invest in our local communities and I'm sure you make a big difference in yours.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 17, 2022 13:46:33 GMT
I actually was very critical of Corbyn in terms of his leadership style at the time, he wanted to lead by consensus which is admirable but very difficult to achieve. With regards the McCarthyite witch hunt from the media and his own PLP I will defend him to the hilt (as I would any politician from any party I might add), it was a disgrace. There is no evidence of Starmer improving anything as it stands, I switch off from the sound bites and listen out for anything of any real note and as yet I’m still waiting. Pandering to the red wall, trying to be tougher than the Tories on crime and immigration, carrying on with a foreign policy that goes from crisis to crisis isn’t a party I’m interested in voting for. I remain happy to be convinced otherwise. New Labour light won’t wash, Scotland has been lost and history shows that the legacy of Blair was wasted opportunities and foreign policy disaster. I don’t accept the binary options of Labour v Tories. I would much rather Labour split and see a proper Social Democratic Party be built up from scratch with the help of the unions and a mass membership movement, it’s not going to win power but done properly it could shake up the political system for future generations. You say that type of government was obliterated in 2019, well yes Brexit was a massive massive issue along with the aforementioned campaign from traitors in his own party particularly to undermine the leader. In the meantime I’ll look at investing time and effort into issues within my local community to try and make a difference that way……. Well, Starmer isn't in power so hasn't had any chance to improve things for the country. Meanwhile, after 12 years of Tory government, things have got much, much worse. In terms of the Labour Party, Starmer is moving away from the Corbyn era and sensibly so. First, it's an approach that was patently unelectable to much of England and second it's the only way to put some distance between Starmer's Labour and the whiff of anti-semitism, both sensible approaches if you want to get elected. Once in power you can actually change things. Again, I suspect Starmer wouldn't do anywhere near enough of the things that you'd like to see once in power, but he'd no doubt do a shitload more than the Tories ever will. I struggle to see why this doesn't seem a suitable improvement at the very least! No government is perfect, but some will give you more of what you want than others, and do it better, or at the very least, less badly! Your wish for your kind of social democratic party is noble and principled and spot on when you say it'll never get into power. In which case, all you will have achieved under our current voting system is to further split the non-Tory vote, leading to even less chance of anyone other than the Tories being in power. I'm not quite sure why you think this would be a good state of affairs? Perhaps you think this will advance the cause for PR, or would result in more people voting for parties other than the Tories once they realise how bad things are under them? Again, I doubt it very much, for the reasons I gave above. We should all invest in our local communities and I'm sure you make a big difference in yours. Time will prove Corbyn to be right on so many things but deep down he was simply not ruthless enough. Sharon Graham the new Unite Gen. Sec. is spot on. The only way now is to rebuild from the bottom up through our communities and trades unions.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 17, 2022 14:30:08 GMT
Well, Starmer isn't in power so hasn't had any chance to improve things for the country. Meanwhile, after 12 years of Tory government, things have got much, much worse. In terms of the Labour Party, Starmer is moving away from the Corbyn era and sensibly so. First, it's an approach that was patently unelectable to much of England and second it's the only way to put some distance between Starmer's Labour and the whiff of anti-semitism, both sensible approaches if you want to get elected. Once in power you can actually change things. Again, I suspect Starmer wouldn't do anywhere near enough of the things that you'd like to see once in power, but he'd no doubt do a shitload more than the Tories ever will. I struggle to see why this doesn't seem a suitable improvement at the very least! No government is perfect, but some will give you more of what you want than others, and do it better, or at the very least, less badly! Your wish for your kind of social democratic party is noble and principled and spot on when you say it'll never get into power. In which case, all you will have achieved under our current voting system is to further split the non-Tory vote, leading to even less chance of anyone other than the Tories being in power. I'm not quite sure why you think this would be a good state of affairs? Perhaps you think this will advance the cause for PR, or would result in more people voting for parties other than the Tories once they realise how bad things are under them? Again, I doubt it very much, for the reasons I gave above. We should all invest in our local communities and I'm sure you make a big difference in yours. Time will prove Corbyn to be right on so many things but deep down he was simply not ruthless enough. Sharon Graham the new Unite Gen. Sec. is spot on. The only way now is to rebuild from the bottom up through our communities and trades unions. What do you think she means about Unite not playing “factional political games”?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 17, 2022 15:27:26 GMT
Well, Starmer isn't in power so hasn't had any chance to improve things for the country. Meanwhile, after 12 years of Tory government, things have got much, much worse. In terms of the Labour Party, Starmer is moving away from the Corbyn era and sensibly so. First, it's an approach that was patently unelectable to much of England and second it's the only way to put some distance between Starmer's Labour and the whiff of anti-semitism, both sensible approaches if you want to get elected. Once in power you can actually change things. Again, I suspect Starmer wouldn't do anywhere near enough of the things that you'd like to see once in power, but he'd no doubt do a shitload more than the Tories ever will. I struggle to see why this doesn't seem a suitable improvement at the very least! No government is perfect, but some will give you more of what you want than others, and do it better, or at the very least, less badly! Your wish for your kind of social democratic party is noble and principled and spot on when you say it'll never get into power. In which case, all you will have achieved under our current voting system is to further split the non-Tory vote, leading to even less chance of anyone other than the Tories being in power. I'm not quite sure why you think this would be a good state of affairs? Perhaps you think this will advance the cause for PR, or would result in more people voting for parties other than the Tories once they realise how bad things are under them? Again, I doubt it very much, for the reasons I gave above. We should all invest in our local communities and I'm sure you make a big difference in yours. Time will prove Corbyn to be right on so many things but deep down he was simply not ruthless enough. Sharon Graham the new Unite Gen. Sec. is spot on. The only way now is to rebuild from the bottom up through our communities and trades unions. Time may prove Corbyn to be right on a number of things but deep down he was simply not electable enough. Same comment as above - good luck with getting the Tories to take much notice of the Unions' desire to improve pay and conditions for the ordinary worker. So, under our current electoral system if you are a non-Tory voter you have a choice between having someone in power whose ear is, at the very least, less unsympathetic to the Union voice or having someone with more Union sympathy but no ability to do anything other than shout from the sidelines because they'll never get elected...seems a basic choice between bad and less bad to me, which doesn't strike me as a difficult choice so long as the 'perfect' choice is never likely to be on the table to start with.
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Post by yeswilko on Feb 17, 2022 20:05:06 GMT
I have to be honest, I can never quite understand your hatred of Starmer! I know he's not Jeremy Corbyn whom you'd massively prefer but surely he's a better alternative to what he have in power and, much more pertinently, a million times more likely to provide an electable alternative than the nature of your preferred opposition? I recognise and admire your principles in sticking to the kind of alternative government you'd wish to see, but, unfortunately, that kind of potential government got obliterated at the polls just over two years ago. More importantly, that kind of potential government isn't going to be elected by England any time soon. So, while I can understand that Starmer isn't your man in no doubt precisely the same way that Blair wasn't your man either, your choice is stark: more Tories like Boris (or worse) or something that you think will perpetuate the "status quo" but might actually improve things for ordinary folk in a way that the Tories never will and in much the same way that Blair's government did in many ways, until the City boys fucked everything up that is. That's not to say that the last Labour government was in any way perfect, no government ever is, some are better than others though. And the fundamental difference is that they are actually in power and therefore able to enact policies. I sometimes wonder whether you want the Tories to remain in power in the hope that everything will eventually get so bad that your alternative will suddenly become blindingly obvious to everyone as the only way forward? If so, this is naive, for two main reasons: one, the right-wing dominated press will never print anything that makes their preferred way look bad (it'll always be the Left's fault - sound familiar?!) and two, people in England don't really care unless it affects them directly. I actually was very critical of Corbyn in terms of his leadership style at the time, he wanted to lead by consensus which is admirable but very difficult to achieve. With regards the McCarthyite witch hunt from the media and his own PLP I will defend him to the hilt (as I would any politician from any party I might add), it was a disgrace. There is no evidence of Starmer improving anything as it stands, I switch off from the sound bites and listen out for anything of any real note and as yet I’m still waiting. Pandering to the red wall, trying to be tougher than the Tories on crime and immigration, carrying on with a foreign policy that goes from crisis to crisis isn’t a party I’m interested in voting for. I remain happy to be convinced otherwise. New Labour light won’t wash, Scotland has been lost and history shows that the legacy of Blair was wasted opportunities and foreign policy disaster. I don’t accept the binary options of Labour v Tories. I would much rather Labour split and see a proper Social Democratic Party be built up from scratch with the help of the unions and a mass membership movement, it’s not going to win power but done properly it could shake up the political system for future generations. You say that type of government was obliterated in 2019, well yes Brexit was a massive massive issue along with the aforementioned campaign from traitors in his own party particularly to undermine the leader. In the meantime I’ll look at investing time and effort into issues within my local community to try and make a difference that way……. A cracking post sir.
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Post by dexter97 on Feb 18, 2022 7:27:23 GMT
Time will prove Corbyn to be right on so many things but deep down he was simply not ruthless enough. Sharon Graham the new Unite Gen. Sec. is spot on. The only way now is to rebuild from the bottom up through our communities and trades unions. Time may prove Corbyn to be right on a number of things but deep down he was simply not electable enough. Same comment as above - good luck with getting the Tories to take much notice of the Unions' desire to improve pay and conditions for the ordinary worker. So, under our current electoral system if you are a non-Tory voter you have a choice between having someone in power whose ear is, at the very least, less unsympathetic to the Union voice or having someone with more Union sympathy but no ability to do anything other than shout from the sidelines because they'll never get elected...seems a basic choice between bad and less bad to me, which doesn't strike me as a difficult choice so long as the 'perfect' choice is never likely to be on the table to start with. As much as 2019 was a disaster for Labour, it shouldn’t be forgotten that despite the treatment Corbyn got from the media (not to mention his own party), 2017 was not all that far from being a success, at least insofar as he massively exceeded expectations. It’s grounds for a little optimism that a candidate from the left can still make an impact, particularly if they can find someone that looks and sounds like a leader. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen before 2024, so we’re stuck with the situation we’ve got. As you say, it’s the least-worst option. While it’s always going to be a difficult thing to get past the press, I think there’s more of an appetite among the electorate for a social-democrat manifesto than there’s been for decades. It just needs the right character to present it. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Starmer has a snowflake in Hell’s chance of winning an election outright, but he could scramble sufficient votes to govern with the help of the Lib Dems. That could be the beginning of the end for FPTP, the two-party system it perpetuates and perhaps even the whole rotten, corrupt establishment.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 24, 2022 18:36:16 GMT
“Get me a bigger flag, lots of flags. I’m the son of a toolmaker for fucks sake”
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 24, 2022 21:14:20 GMT
“Get me a bigger flag, lots of flags. I’m the son of a toolmaker for fucks sake” I'd been wondering how long it'd take you to be back on with something like that as soon as the polls* were less favourable! Not long clearly Yet you've been steadfastly ignoring the polls for the last few months while the converse was true. I can't help wondering why you seem so delighted to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's weird! I refer you back to my post higher up on this page on the choice available at present under our current electoral system. To summarise: in current government options, your choice appears to be between voting to have a foot cut off (Starmer's Labour), or voting to have both feet cut off (the Tories). I'm afraid no feet removed is not an option currently available to you. Which one would sir prefer? It would seem a fairly straightforward, if unpalatable, one to me, if I was your good self and interested in minimising damage to the country, so I don't really understand your excitement at these latest polls? *The usual wartime electoral bounce - I'm surprised it's not been bigger, although perhaps some of the Russian money and ineffective sanctions stuff has cut through a little?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 24, 2022 21:59:18 GMT
“Get me a bigger flag, lots of flags. I’m the son of a toolmaker for fucks sake” I'd been wondering how long it'd take you to be back on with something like that as soon as the polls* were less favourable! Not long clearly Yet you've been steadfastly ignoring the polls for the last few months while the converse was true. I can't help wondering why you seem so delighted to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's weird! I refer you back to my post higher up on this page on the choice available at present under our current electoral system. To summarise: in current government options, your choice appears to be between voting to have a foot cut off (Starmer's Labour), or voting to have both feet cut off (the Tories). I'm afraid no feet removed is not an option currently available to you. Which one would sir prefer? It would seem a fairly straightforward, if unpalatable, one to me, if I was your good self and interested in minimising damage to the country, so I don't really understand your excitement at these latest polls? *The usual wartime electoral bounce - I'm surprised it's not been bigger, although perhaps some of the Russian money and ineffective sanctions stuff has cut through a little? I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless……
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Post by ColonelMustard on Mar 25, 2022 0:08:22 GMT
I'd been wondering how long it'd take you to be back on with something like that as soon as the polls* were less favourable! Not long clearly :D Yet you've been steadfastly ignoring the polls for the last few months while the converse was true. I can't help wondering why you seem so delighted to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's weird! I refer you back to my post higher up on this page on the choice available at present under our current electoral system. To summarise: in current government options, your choice appears to be between voting to have a foot cut off (Starmer's Labour), or voting to have both feet cut off (the Tories). I'm afraid no feet removed is not an option currently available to you. Which one would sir prefer? It would seem a fairly straightforward, if unpalatable, one to me, if I was your good self and interested in minimising damage to the country, so I don't really understand your excitement at these latest polls? *The usual wartime electoral bounce - I'm surprised it's not been bigger, although perhaps some of the Russian money and ineffective sanctions stuff has cut through a little? I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… He will lose despite having conceded every principle and left every argument umade.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 25, 2022 9:23:05 GMT
I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… He will lose despite having conceded every principle and left every argument umade. Bingo. The only caveat being as I've said previously if the main media outlets in the UK get pissed off enough with Johnson to turn their support to Starmer as there's no threat to the status quo, then he'll see his popularity rise despite not being very good........
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 25, 2022 10:04:54 GMT
I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… He will lose despite having conceded every principle and left every argument umade. It could got either way, a narrow win either way for the Tories or Labour. Mainly because you couldn't put a fag paper between them right now. Corbyn's main manifesto policies were popular, Starmer abandoned them all one by one. He's also guilty of fire and rehire at LPHQ. It's such a mess.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 25, 2022 16:21:29 GMT
I'd been wondering how long it'd take you to be back on with something like that as soon as the polls* were less favourable! Not long clearly Yet you've been steadfastly ignoring the polls for the last few months while the converse was true. I can't help wondering why you seem so delighted to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's weird! I refer you back to my post higher up on this page on the choice available at present under our current electoral system. To summarise: in current government options, your choice appears to be between voting to have a foot cut off (Starmer's Labour), or voting to have both feet cut off (the Tories). I'm afraid no feet removed is not an option currently available to you. Which one would sir prefer? It would seem a fairly straightforward, if unpalatable, one to me, if I was your good self and interested in minimising damage to the country, so I don't really understand your excitement at these latest polls? *The usual wartime electoral bounce - I'm surprised it's not been bigger, although perhaps some of the Russian money and ineffective sanctions stuff has cut through a little? I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… Useless and corrupt or slightly less useless and corrupt - doesn't seem a particularly difficult choice to me. Especially when not useless and corrupt doesn't appear to be on the table. At least in your eyes. As I say, I can never understand your vitriol towards the obviously less bad choice under our current electoral system. PR, yes I'd get it, but under FPTP it's just helping to perpetuate the worst available option. To what end?
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Post by ColonelMustard on Mar 26, 2022 7:41:09 GMT
He will lose despite having conceded every principle and left every argument umade. Bingo. The only caveat being as I've said previously if the main media outlets in the UK get pissed off enough with Johnson to turn their support to Starmer as there's no threat to the status quo, then he'll see his popularity rise despite not being very good........ Indeed. I dont think those powers will think unlike me, which is that if he sneaks it after a soft passage (which hes getting), the left receives a bigger blow than if the Tories win. Capital remains unthreatened for another generation. As such I wont be voting Labour for the first time in my life.
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Post by chad on Mar 27, 2022 8:44:50 GMT
Is Starmer still Labour leader
I honestly thought he’d retired 😊
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 27, 2022 20:41:47 GMT
I'd been wondering how long it'd take you to be back on with something like that as soon as the polls* were less favourable! Not long clearly Yet you've been steadfastly ignoring the polls for the last few months while the converse was true. I can't help wondering why you seem so delighted to cut off your nose to spite your face, it's weird! I refer you back to my post higher up on this page on the choice available at present under our current electoral system. To summarise: in current government options, your choice appears to be between voting to have a foot cut off (Starmer's Labour), or voting to have both feet cut off (the Tories). I'm afraid no feet removed is not an option currently available to you. Which one would sir prefer? It would seem a fairly straightforward, if unpalatable, one to me, if I was your good self and interested in minimising damage to the country, so I don't really understand your excitement at these latest polls? *The usual wartime electoral bounce - I'm surprised it's not been bigger, although perhaps some of the Russian money and ineffective sanctions stuff has cut through a little? I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… And ignored the four afterwards that showed Labour leads When you're on the same side as phileetin "that's why the luvvies and socialists hate [Boris] so much" you should start thinking about what it is you're trying to achieve!
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2022 7:57:14 GMT
I’ve been ignoring them because they’ve clearly been a byproduct of partygate and the Russian scandals, which are already beginning to wear off. And you’re way off the mark I’m afraid, I lm not excited in the slightest by these corrupt bastards being in charge, but anyone that thinks this dead duck of a Labour leader is the answer will be in for a rude awakening come election time, he’s useless…… And ignored the four afterwards that showed Labour leads When you're on the same side as phileetin "that's why the luvvies and socialists hate [Boris] so much" you should start thinking about what it is you're trying to achieve! I'm sorry but if you think the Labour's small lead in some of the polls is built on anything other than quicksand I can't help you. The raw data and "don't knows" show clearly that Labour aren't attracting anyone that isn't already voting for them and the fluctuations are caused largely by Tory voter apathy. It's almost irrelevant if they are slightly up or down if you strip it back to that. I'll let you come to the conclusion of how that will pan out for the next election. The data was far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger, the conclusion being that a unifying candidate taking the popular policies of the previous regime would have been way way ahead in the polls right now. If instead of waging war on the left of the party Starmer had set out a largely democratic socialist platform and seeked to end the division the left would have tolerated him and the middle-class liberals who despised Corbyn would have trusted him. It's dead simple, unless the Tories implode and/or the media jump on board with Starmer Labour will sleepwalk into an even heavier defeat in the next election. Whether you think I'm picking aside is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, it's not the 6th form debating society........
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Mar 28, 2022 8:36:12 GMT
And ignored the four afterwards that showed Labour leads When you're on the same side as phileetin "that's why the luvvies and socialists hate [Boris] so much" you should start thinking about what it is you're trying to achieve! I'm sorry but if you think the Labour's small lead in some of the polls is built on anything other than quicksand I can't help you. The raw data and "don't knows" show clearly that Labour aren't attracting anyone that isn't already voting for them and the fluctuations are caused largely by Tory voter apathy. It's almost irrelevant if they are slightly up or down if you strip it back to that. I'll let you come to the conclusion of how that will pan out for the next election. The data was far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger, the conclusion being that a unifying candidate taking the popular policies of the previous regime would have been way way ahead in the polls right now. If instead of waging war on the left of the party Starmer had set out a largely democratic socialist platform and seeked to end the division the left would have tolerated him and the middle-class liberals who despised Corbyn would have trusted him. It's dead simple, unless the Tories implode and/or the media jump on board with Starmer Labour will sleepwalk into an even heavier defeat in the next election. Whether you think I'm picking aside is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, it's not the 6th form debating society........ I would be very surprised if Starmer got 8 million votes, never mind the 14 million achieved in 2017.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Mar 28, 2022 13:21:36 GMT
I sympathise with those who're true Labour voters. I forever feel unrepresented and it's not nice having your party moved in a direction you disagree with.
What I will say is this is quite a hard right Tory government and I feel we'd notice the difference in a centrist party. I voted Labour for the first time at the last election in the hope we can boot Johnson out I'll be doing it again. I don't know how true it still is but elections used to be fought in the middle and I'm hopeful this is where Starmer can do well.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 28, 2022 16:31:48 GMT
And ignored the four afterwards that showed Labour leads When you're on the same side as phileetin "that's why the luvvies and socialists hate [Boris] so much" you should start thinking about what it is you're trying to achieve! I'm sorry but if you think the Labour's small lead in some of the polls is built on anything other than quicksand I can't help you. The raw data and "don't knows" show clearly that Labour aren't attracting anyone that isn't already voting for them and the fluctuations are caused largely by Tory voter apathy. It's almost irrelevant if they are slightly up or down if you strip it back to that. I'll let you come to the conclusion of how that will pan out for the next election. The data was far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger, the conclusion being that a unifying candidate taking the popular policies of the previous regime would have been way way ahead in the polls right now. If instead of waging war on the left of the party Starmer had set out a largely democratic socialist platform and seeked to end the division the left would have tolerated him and the middle-class liberals who despised Corbyn would have trusted him. It's dead simple, unless the Tories implode and/or the media jump on board with Starmer Labour will sleepwalk into an even heavier defeat in the next election. Whether you think I'm picking aside is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, it's not the 6th form debating society........ I mentioned sides simply to try to get you to see who you're in bed with when it comes to hating Starmer as much as you do, and what that hatred will help to bring about, ie another Tory government. It's a shame you don't seem to be able to see that. If the data was "far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger", how come he got his arse handed to him twice in rapid succession, with the last time bringing about the worst electoral result for his party for almost 40 years? Just Brexit? I don't think so. It was Brexit and Corbyn's particular brand of Labour that did the damage. It just doesn't appeal to England, I'm afraid. I'll happily have a wager with you that Labour won't suffer an even heavier defeat at the next election - although I notice you've played a couple of nice get out of jail free cards there just in case - simply because in an essentially right-wing country like England, only a Labour Party closer to the centre is ever going to be electable for the foreseeable future. If you don't think that's the case, read Cobham's posts on the Government Shambles thread. He's essentially the kind of middle ground floating voter both parties need to attract to get elected. He's already said he couldn't vote Labour under Corbyn because he didn't like him, McDonnell, Lammy and Abbott, but will consider doing so this time, presumably now that they are no longer front and (not so!) centre. Added to the general ineptness of the Tory Party. I admire your principles, I really do, and your commitment to getting regularly personally involved in your local community is something we could all adopt, but on a national basis, your approach to the current Labour Party is effectively campaigning for five more years of Conservative government. In my opinion you'd be far better off accepting the better of two unsatisfactory choices (in your eyes) and seeking to influence the better option once in power, rather than shouting from the sidelines and helping to elect the worst of the two alternatives over and over again.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 28, 2022 16:45:32 GMT
I'm sorry but if you think the Labour's small lead in some of the polls is built on anything other than quicksand I can't help you. The raw data and "don't knows" show clearly that Labour aren't attracting anyone that isn't already voting for them and the fluctuations are caused largely by Tory voter apathy. It's almost irrelevant if they are slightly up or down if you strip it back to that. I'll let you come to the conclusion of how that will pan out for the next election. The data was far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger, the conclusion being that a unifying candidate taking the popular policies of the previous regime would have been way way ahead in the polls right now. If instead of waging war on the left of the party Starmer had set out a largely democratic socialist platform and seeked to end the division the left would have tolerated him and the middle-class liberals who despised Corbyn would have trusted him. It's dead simple, unless the Tories implode and/or the media jump on board with Starmer Labour will sleepwalk into an even heavier defeat in the next election. Whether you think I'm picking aside is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, it's not the 6th form debating society........ I mentioned sides simply to try to get you to see who you're in bed with when it comes to hating Starmer as much as you do, and what that hatred will help to bring about, ie another Tory government. It's a shame you don't seem to be able to see that. If the data was "far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger", how come he got his arse handed to him twice in rapid succession, with the last time bringing about the worst electoral result for his party for almost 40 years? Just Brexit? I don't think so. It was Brexit and Corbyn's particular brand of Labour that did the damage. It just doesn't appeal to England, I'm afraid. I'll happily have a wager with you that Labour won't suffer an even heavier defeat at the next election - although I notice you've played a couple of nice get out of jail free cards there just in case - simply because in an essentially right-wing country like England, only a Labour Party closer to the centre is ever going to be electable for the foreseeable future. If you don't think that's the case, read Cobham's posts on the Government Shambles thread. He's essentially the kind of middle ground floating voter both parties need to attract to get elected. He's already said he couldn't vote Labour under Corbyn because he didn't like him, McDonnell, Lammy and Abbott, but will consider doing so this time, presumably now that they are no longer front and (not so!) centre. Added to the general ineptness of the Tory Party. I admire your principles, I really do, and your commitment to getting regularly personally involved in your local community is something we could all adopt, but on a national basis, your approach to the current Labour Party is effectively campaigning for five more years of Conservative government. In my opinion you'd be far better off accepting the better of two unsatisfactory choices (in your eyes) and seeking to influence the better option once in power, rather than shouting from the sidelines and helping to elect the worst of the two alternatives over and over again. You say I've played a couple of get out of jail cards yet I've said on many many occasions on this very forum that Starmer despite being shit could still get in for the reasons I've just stated, I've been extremely consistent in my viewpoint. Doesn't stop me from thinking he's an unprincipled waste of space......
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 29, 2022 10:04:27 GMT
I mentioned sides simply to try to get you to see who you're in bed with when it comes to hating Starmer as much as you do, and what that hatred will help to bring about, ie another Tory government. It's a shame you don't seem to be able to see that. If the data was "far more favourable in 2017 when Labour under Corbyn were polling much stronger", how come he got his arse handed to him twice in rapid succession, with the last time bringing about the worst electoral result for his party for almost 40 years? Just Brexit? I don't think so. It was Brexit and Corbyn's particular brand of Labour that did the damage. It just doesn't appeal to England, I'm afraid. I'll happily have a wager with you that Labour won't suffer an even heavier defeat at the next election - although I notice you've played a couple of nice get out of jail free cards there just in case - simply because in an essentially right-wing country like England, only a Labour Party closer to the centre is ever going to be electable for the foreseeable future. If you don't think that's the case, read Cobham's posts on the Government Shambles thread. He's essentially the kind of middle ground floating voter both parties need to attract to get elected. He's already said he couldn't vote Labour under Corbyn because he didn't like him, McDonnell, Lammy and Abbott, but will consider doing so this time, presumably now that they are no longer front and (not so!) centre. Added to the general ineptness of the Tory Party. I admire your principles, I really do, and your commitment to getting regularly personally involved in your local community is something we could all adopt, but on a national basis, your approach to the current Labour Party is effectively campaigning for five more years of Conservative government. In my opinion you'd be far better off accepting the better of two unsatisfactory choices (in your eyes) and seeking to influence the better option once in power, rather than shouting from the sidelines and helping to elect the worst of the two alternatives over and over again. You say I've played a couple of get out of jail cards yet I've said on many many occasions on this very forum that Starmer despite being shit could still get in for the reasons I've just stated, I've been extremely consistent in my viewpoint. Doesn't stop me from thinking he's an unprincipled waste of space...... Well, which is it? He'll suffer an even heavier defeat at the next election or he won't? You think he's an unprincipled waste of space. Fair enough. I hope you enjoy your personal contribution to another five years of Conservative government, undermining somewhat all the fantastic work you do locally. To repeat: under FPTP it's currently a choice between 'shit' or 'less shit'. Seems a blindingly obvious one to me, when 'not shit at all' stands no chance of getting elected. I honestly think there are some non-Tories who care more about making their own potential party of government unelectable than they do about getting the Tories out of power and possibly, just possibly, improving the country for ordinary people. It's very strange.
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Post by felonious on Apr 2, 2022 10:30:06 GMT
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Post by Gob Bluth on Apr 2, 2022 13:15:18 GMT
Name them, boot them out, change the policy. He can’t have too many more of these otherwise some of us will go and waste our vote on the Lib Dems or Greens.
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Post by generationex on Apr 2, 2022 21:11:54 GMT
Even Tories are now been accused of drug fuelled perversion! Our own Brexit giving Tories!
Next they will be saying they’re liars! Or crooks! Or Covid law breakers! (Who made ‘em anyway - I’ll tell yer - bloody liberals!!)
What the heck is going on?
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Post by thewonderstuff on Apr 24, 2022 11:01:26 GMT
There's some quite interesting narrative challenges facing Keith and the gang in the next couple of weeks until the Council elections. They are desperate to get it out there that massive gains are unlikely because they actually did v. well in these same seats four years ago but that will draw attention to who the leader of the Labour Party was during those elections
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