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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 16, 2024 19:03:33 GMT
22% pay offer accepted by the junior doctors just in time to treat the freezing.dying pensioners Sick bastards
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 16, 2024 19:15:44 GMT
22% pay offer accepted by the junior doctors just in time to treat the freezing.dying pensioners Sick bastards It gets worse mate by the day
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Post by 4372 on Sept 16, 2024 21:05:06 GMT
You didn't present a valid point. I don't go in for counterfactual arguments such as the ones you used here. Sir Keir Starmer has to real with today's issues, and will be judged on that. The Tories had issues to deal with, and lost their way, either through mistakes, malevolence, or greed, or going down the cul-de-sac of culture wars. Johnson, Truss, and others, were just the personifications of The maliciousness at the heart of Tory philosophy. What don’t you understand about a simple question "wonder what the present incumbents would have done being presented with global pandemic, European war and Brexit within 2 years of taking office". However you’ve somehow twisted a straight forward question to suit your own agenda. The answer to my question is probably that they would have done similar apart from the disaster of 45 days of Truss. Regarding cronyism and sleaze there’s little difference between MPs of all parties imo. It wasn't a simple question though, was it? It was a loaded question. The thread is essentially an anti-Labour thread, and is designed to undermine the current government by attacking the Labour leader, Sir Keir. There is nothing wrong with that. You have suggested openly that you do not like Labour and Sir Keir, with your comments. Again, there is nothing wrong with that. But it is, in my opinion, disingenuous to suggest that in those circumstances, you were asking a simple question.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 16, 2024 21:28:34 GMT
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Sept 16, 2024 21:31:51 GMT
Fucking hell 🤣 I’m surprised you haven’t ordered his dirty Y fronts and wear them on your head of an evening
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Post by gawa on Sept 16, 2024 21:37:55 GMT
Fucking hell 🤣 I’m surprised you haven’t ordered his dirty Y fronts and wear them on your head of an evening Jeremy doesn't wear y fronts in solidarity with those in poverty who can't afford basics such as underwear. He only ever goes commando. That's the measure of the man.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Sept 16, 2024 21:51:18 GMT
Fucking hell 🤣 I’m surprised you haven’t ordered his dirty Y fronts and wear them on your head of an evening Jeremy doesn't wear y fronts in solidarity with those in poverty who can't afford basics such as underwear. He only ever goes commando. That's the measure of the man. It's pronounced kumanduz by his friends.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 5:59:50 GMT
Fucking hell 🤣 I’m surprised you haven’t ordered his dirty Y fronts and wear them on your head of an evening Never realised decency and integrity were so funny Mucka. Each to their own I suppose.
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 6:11:14 GMT
It gets worse mate by the day Yes i would much prefer the doctors were grossly underpaid so they leave and go abroad for better pay and working conditions, or are striking.
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Post by lawrieleslie on Sept 17, 2024 6:51:09 GMT
It gets worse mate by the day Yes i would much prefer the doctors were grossly underpaid so they leave and go abroad for better pay and working conditions, or are striking. Don’t believe anyone would begrudge doctors a pay rise. Think the reference is towards the government on one hand finding billions to fund doctors and train driver pay rises whilst in the meantime cutting winter fuel allowance to some of the most vulnerable elderly.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 7:35:14 GMT
It gets worse mate by the day So you're happy for Junior Doctors to be still behind in salary in real terms, thanks to the last 14 years of the Tories?
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 7:52:14 GMT
Yes i would much prefer the doctors were grossly underpaid so they leave and go abroad for better pay and working conditions, or are striking. Don’t believe anyone would begrudge doctors a pay rise. Think the reference is towards the government on one hand finding billions to fund doctors and train driver pay rises whilst in the meantime cutting winter fuel allowance to some of the most vulnerable elderly. They are not one or the other choices though. Plus stopping the strikes saves billions for the economy and makes it more likely that measures that could benefit the pensioners who just miss the winter fuel allowance, but who still probably need it, more affordable. There are plenty more bigger actual wastes of public money. For a start, the up to £115,000 expenses a year for life that Liz Truss can claim just because she was PM for a few days…
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Post by phileetin on Sept 17, 2024 9:27:30 GMT
it won't stop the strikes though will it , it just encourages the GP's , consultants , porters , cleaners , then teachers , police , fire , ambulance , civil servants council workers etc etc etc etc to ask for 15 - 30 % wage rises .
the junior doctors haven't ruled out further strikes either , they've just banked this one , still insist they are 40% down c/w 2008 so are considering further disruption.
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Post by frasier37 on Sept 17, 2024 9:55:59 GMT
i dont begrudge anyone fighting for better pay, i fucking despise people who think they should accept the jackboot on their neck
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 10:37:12 GMT
it won't stop the strikes though will it , it just encourages the GP's , consultants , porters , cleaners , then teachers , police , fire , ambulance , civil servants council workers etc etc etc etc to ask for 15 - 30 % wage rises . the junior doctors haven't ruled out further strikes either , they've just banked this one , still insist they are 40% down c/w 2008 so are considering further disruption. So what do you suggest? Not negotiating like the last government? That went well…What would you do differently in your approach to union demands, at all times trying to balance disruptions caused by strikes/people leaving their jobs and unfilled jobs against cost of pay rises. This government has negotiated and settled a few union disputes. And so far we have seen fewer strikes and disruptions. That’s good news. It comes at a cost, but the economic impact of strikes far outweighs the cost of pay rises. Most people are hard working and they want to be paid a reasonable sum for their hard work and have reasonable conditions that do not make their job untenable. That requires a massive shift in culture in a huge number of our public services where the previous 14 years have demanded employees do far more for far less money. That has a massive impact and it is the current government who have decided that they have had enough of being in a battle with the public sector and so they wish to resolve the issues. That has to be a good thing. It will also stop strikes.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 10:48:14 GMT
it won't stop the strikes though will it , it just encourages the GP's , consultants , porters , cleaners , then teachers , police , fire , ambulance , civil servants council workers etc etc etc etc to ask for 15 - 30 % wage rises . the junior doctors haven't ruled out further strikes either , they've just banked this one , still insist they are 40% down c/w 2008 so are considering further disruption. It's 14 years of mismanagement mate, not difficult to understand.
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Post by phileetin on Sept 17, 2024 11:05:34 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then .
and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 11:14:16 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. Because 14 years of austerity and cuts has worked really well, has it mate?
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Sept 17, 2024 11:26:34 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. Meanwhile you think it's better for doctors to go overseas, medical inrastrucure to stand idle and people be off sick waiting for medical treatment. Your myopic view is the reason why this country is on it's arse.
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Post by gawa on Sept 17, 2024 11:31:40 GMT
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Post by phileetin on Sept 17, 2024 11:35:01 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. Because 14 years of austerity and cuts has worked really well, has it mate?
wilson tried what starmer is doing now ie pay the public sector workers everything they wanted and then the IMF had to step in .
still didn't stop the strikes .
maggie did that .
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 11:37:46 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. NHS England has said that through to the end of January 2024, the impact of strikes in 2023 came with a financial cost of £1.5 billion to the tax payer. And other organisations have said the costs could be even higher. In terms of rail, in 2022, they cost the UK economy more than £1bn and the Rail Minister at the time Huw Merriman admitted it would have cost less to settle the dispute with unions over pay and conditions months ago. So strikes require a far greater need to increase taxes etc as they are much worse for the economy than settling and having a happy and hard working workforce. You still haven’t offered any solutions whatsoever, and just continue to point to potential problems often mirroring what the right wing press say about strikes. What is your better solution than negotiating and settling the disputes and stopping the strikes? What would you do?
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 11:55:55 GMT
Because 14 years of austerity and cuts has worked really well, has it mate? wilson tried what starmer is doing now ie pay the public sector workers everything they wanted and then the IMF had to step in .
still didn't stop the strikes . maggie did that .
You must be terrified that the workers will take their hard won money and squirrel it into offshore tax havens....oh hang on.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 11:57:06 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. NHS England has said that through to the end of January 2024, the impact of strikes in 2023 came with a financial cost of £1.5 billion to the tax payer. And other organisations have said the costs could be even higher. In terms of rail, in 2022, they cost the UK economy more than £1bn and the Rail Minister at the time Huw Merriman admitted it would have cost less to settle the dispute with unions over pay and conditions months ago. So strikes require a far greater need to increase taxes etc as they are much worse for the economy than settling and having a happy and hard working workforce. You still haven’t offered any solutions whatsoever, and just continue to point to potential problems often mirroring what the right wing press say about strikes. What is your better solution than negotiating and settling the disputes and stopping the strikes? What would you do? I suspect He'll share another link to the Daily Mail or the Express.
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Post by OldStokie on Sept 17, 2024 13:36:18 GMT
you can't moan about the inevitable tax increases , inflation , interest rate rises , and further strikes then . and you can't moan when the tories have to do more drastic cuts when they get back in. NHS England has said that through to the end of January 2024, the impact of strikes in 2023 came with a financial cost of £1.5 billion to the tax payer. And other organisations have said the costs could be even higher. In terms of rail, in 2022, they cost the UK economy more than £1bn and the Rail Minister at the time Huw Merriman admitted it would have cost less to settle the dispute with unions over pay and conditions months ago. So strikes require a far greater need to increase taxes etc as they are much worse for the economy than settling and having a happy and hard working workforce. You still haven’t offered any solutions whatsoever, and just continue to point to potential problems often mirroring what the right wing press say about strikes. What is your better solution than negotiating and settling the disputes and stopping the strikes? What would you do? The Junior Doctors pay settlement will cost the government 600 million. 25% of that will be taken back in tax and NI contributions so it will only cost 450 Million. That's a saving of a billion if the strikes continued without settlement. Ideologues are costing this country a fortune. OS.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Sept 17, 2024 14:26:18 GMT
NHS England has said that through to the end of January 2024, the impact of strikes in 2023 came with a financial cost of £1.5 billion to the tax payer. And other organisations have said the costs could be even higher. In terms of rail, in 2022, they cost the UK economy more than £1bn and the Rail Minister at the time Huw Merriman admitted it would have cost less to settle the dispute with unions over pay and conditions months ago. So strikes require a far greater need to increase taxes etc as they are much worse for the economy than settling and having a happy and hard working workforce. You still haven’t offered any solutions whatsoever, and just continue to point to potential problems often mirroring what the right wing press say about strikes. What is your better solution than negotiating and settling the disputes and stopping the strikes? What would you do? The Junior Doctors pay settlement will cost the government 600 million. 25% of that will be taken back in tax and NI contributions so it will only cost 450 Million. That's a saving of a billion if the strikes continued without settlement. Ideologues are costing this country a fortune. OS. Not difficult to understand, although it seems it is for certain posters on here.
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Post by phileetin on Sept 17, 2024 14:59:36 GMT
NHS England has said that through to the end of January 2024, the impact of strikes in 2023 came with a financial cost of £1.5 billion to the tax payer. And other organisations have said the costs could be even higher. In terms of rail, in 2022, they cost the UK economy more than £1bn and the Rail Minister at the time Huw Merriman admitted it would have cost less to settle the dispute with unions over pay and conditions months ago. So strikes require a far greater need to increase taxes etc as they are much worse for the economy than settling and having a happy and hard working workforce. You still haven’t offered any solutions whatsoever, and just continue to point to potential problems often mirroring what the right wing press say about strikes. What is your better solution than negotiating and settling the disputes and stopping the strikes? What would you do? The Junior Doctors pay settlement will cost the government 600 million. 25% of that will be taken back in tax and NI contributions so it will only cost 450 Million. That's a saving of a billion if the strikes continued without settlement. Ideologues are costing this country a fortune. OS.
yes , and because they spend it all on vat rated stuff in the uk or at companies that pay uk corporation tax and don't save any of it , we'll end up with it all back in the treasury coffers eventually so it doesn't really cost the country anything .
why only give them 22% wage rises then ?
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 17, 2024 15:36:54 GMT
Yes i would much prefer the doctors were grossly underpaid so they leave and go abroad for better pay and working conditions, or are striking. Don’t believe anyone would begrudge doctors a pay rise. Think the reference is towards the government on one hand finding billions to fund doctors and train driver pay rises whilst in the meantime cutting winter fuel allowance to some of the most vulnerable elderly. It's a lazy conflation. If the previous governments had given junior doctors even an annual inflationary pay rise (ie remaining static in real terms) we wouldn't now be faced with double digit rises bringing them back to something approaching where they would have been. And it's dead right that benefits should be means tested. The most vulnerable are not having their winter fuel payments removed. Those who "give it to the grandkids" "use it for the holiday fund" etc are. And rightly so. Child benefit next please. It's ridiculous that that is currently universal, although I appreciate that receipt of it has tax implications for higher earners. I think most people would support payments of all kinds only going to those who really need them and the only way to do that is through some form of means testing. There will always be those at the cut-off points who the media focus on but, in the case of pensioners, the proportion of them who are asset rich has risen substantially recently. fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 15:42:15 GMT
The Junior Doctors pay settlement will cost the government 600 million. 25% of that will be taken back in tax and NI contributions so it will only cost 450 Million. That's a saving of a billion if the strikes continued without settlement. Ideologues are costing this country a fortune. OS. yes , and because they spend it all on vat rated stuff in the uk or at companies that pay uk corporation tax and don't save any of it , we'll end up with it all back in the treasury coffers eventually so it doesn't really cost the country anything . why only give them 22% wage rises then ?
Good points. I am glad you have come round on this one.
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Post by oggyoggy on Sept 17, 2024 15:43:59 GMT
Don’t believe anyone would begrudge doctors a pay rise. Think the reference is towards the government on one hand finding billions to fund doctors and train driver pay rises whilst in the meantime cutting winter fuel allowance to some of the most vulnerable elderly. It's a lazy conflation. If the previous governments had given junior doctors even an annual inflationary pay rise (ie remaining static in real terms) we wouldn't now be faced with double digit rises bringing them back to something approaching where they would have been. And it's dead right that benefits should be means tested. The most vulnerable are not having their winter fuel payments removed. Those who "give it to the grandkids" "use it for the holiday fund" etc are. And rightly so. Child benefit next please. It's ridiculous that that is currently universal, although I appreciate that receipt of it has tax implications for higher earners. I think most people would support payments of all kinds only going to those who really need them and the only way to do that is through some form of means testing. There will always be those at the cut-off points who the media focus on but, in the case of pensioners, the proportion of them who are asset rich has risen substantially recently. fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/Child benefit is not universal. My wife and I cannot claim it for our 3 young kids. They say it is universal but it isn’t.
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