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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 1, 2020 20:18:40 GMT
They aren’t all over this weekend though are they. I’m convinced some of the other governments aren’t as transparent You may well be correct about the other governments, but it was a slimey trick today not mentioning the other 400 odd deaths at the daily briefing. I’m not disagreeing with that but in the same way it shouldn’t just be put on the end of today’s figure like it all occurred today either.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 1, 2020 20:19:44 GMT
Bit naughty of sky that making it up to 556 to have more impact when it’s over a period of over a month. Whats naughty is over 39,000 dead up to now............... I certainly aren’t disagreeing with that. It’s awful.
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Post by chad on Jun 1, 2020 20:22:41 GMT
Here, we often have 2 causes of death. For example, when my dad died he had both cancer and MRSA on his death certificate. Irrespective of whether you die of covid or with covid, it goes down as a covid death. In germany it doesn't. If you have a stroke whilst having covid, you are said to have died of a stroke. If you have lung cancer and die with covid, the cause of death is lung cancer. I believe similar is true in Spain and many other countries. Where have you read that Dave? Andrew Neil has suggested it’s like comparing apples with apples with ours and the German numbers. I’ve just read a fact check article on this and counting differences are numerous between countries I’m sure eventually someone will provide a true comparison but it’s not out there yet
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 20:23:12 GMT
You may well be correct about the other governments, but it was a slimey trick today not mentioning the other 400 odd deaths at the daily briefing. I’m not disagreeing with that but in the same way it shouldn’t just be put on the end of today’s figure like it all occurred today either. Totally understand they weren’t over the last 24 hours, I think most people do. But when we add 400 deaths like it’s a fairly insignificant number in the grand scheme of things it shows just where we’re at in tackling this virus, that’s more deaths than the likes of South Korea have suffered in totality.....
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 1, 2020 20:26:37 GMT
Where have you read that Dave? Andrew Neil has suggested it’s like comparing apples with apples with ours and the German numbers. I haven't read it. I picked it up in conversation during a video conference with our German counterparts and suppliers. I have a neighbour who told me something similar re one of her friends father had Terminal cancer and was diagnosed With Covid 19. His cause of death was put down as Covid
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Post by stokeyhunter on Jun 1, 2020 20:31:37 GMT
2 things from me... I think we can criticise the government for lots of things but I'm not sure you can for the data around the death toll. If we declared deaths the way germany do, for example, our death toll would be significantly lower than the quoted figures. I'm also wondering if this is the 2nd wave/spike that we are going through. 6000 more people died in December 2019 than they did in 2018. I come into contact with plenty of people who travel to and from China regularly with the regions they visit being relatively close to wuhan. I know quite a few business people who were very ill with coronavirus symptoms in december and I was the same mid-December. Ridiculously high temperature, sweats, no taste, cough and intense lethargy that lasted all through christmas and well into the new year. I read an article this morning suggesting that this virus could have been here in November. If so, was this the 2nd wave? How feasible is that? I also certainly believe that it could have been around here in November/December last year. My colleague's son was in close contact with a friend who had returned from Wuhan. Her son, herself and her entire family were really ill for weeks. I had a meeting with her before she became really ill and I was also incredibly ill and all of my symptoms were clear COVID symptoms. I remember at the time thinking this is so much worse than just a normal cough but at that point didn't have a clue about coronavirus.
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Post by Davef on Jun 1, 2020 20:34:08 GMT
What exactly is the difference in the way Germany declare ? Im sure there are many significant differences by country and I don’t think a true comparison can be made until these are ironed out I’ve seen something from a doctor saying he’s seen deaths reported as COVID when they haven’t even been tested - it was on Twitter and in the spirit of this thread is therefore factually correct May have been this article? www.rt.com/op-ed/490006-death-certificates-covid-19-do-not-trust/
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Post by stokeson on Jun 1, 2020 20:36:56 GMT
RT are you taking the p*ss......t
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Post by thisisouryear on Jun 1, 2020 20:40:26 GMT
I’m not disagreeing with that but in the same way it shouldn’t just be put on the end of today’s figure like it all occurred today either. Totally understand they weren’t over the last 24 hours, I think most people do. But when we add 400 deaths like it’s a fairly insignificant number in the grand scheme of things it shows just where we’re at in tackling this virus, that’s more deaths m than the likes of South Korea have suffered in totality..... We had been relaxing measures all last week and releasing an app whilst transitioning from 4 to 3. We can't have a rising death rate whilst doing all that can we? Anyone defending this government want to be conned and care very little about their children's future. The R rate is likely higher than what we are being told too. This government have no shame and it's definitely a case of profits before people. The virus weakening is our only hope for now until an effective treatment comes along.
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sevvy
Youth Player
Posts: 340
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Post by sevvy on Jun 1, 2020 20:40:32 GMT
2 things from me... I think we can criticise the government for lots of things but I'm not sure you can for the data around the death toll. If we declared deaths the way germany do, for example, our death toll would be significantly lower than the quoted figures. I'm also wondering if this is the 2nd wave/spike that we are going through. 6000 more people died in December 2019 than they did in 2018. I come into contact with plenty of people who travel to and from China regularly with the regions they visit being relatively close to wuhan.I know quite a few business people who were very ill with coronavirus symptoms in december and I was the same mid-December. Ridiculously high temperature, sweats, no taste, cough and intense lethargy that lasted all through christmas and well into the new year. I read an article this morning suggesting that this virus could have been here in November. If so, was this the 2nd wave? How feasible is that? Dave, was there any change they noticed re procedures in the airports, ie temperature testng started out of the blue etc. That's what happened to a colleague of my partner in October 2019 that hadn't happened on all his earlier trips that year?
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jun 1, 2020 20:41:38 GMT
What exactly is the difference in the way Germany declare ? Im sure there are many significant differences by country and I don’t think a true comparison can be made until these are ironed out Here, we often have 2 causes of death. For example, when my dad died he had both cancer and MRSA on his death certificate. Irrespective of whether you die of covid or with covid, it goes down as a covid death. In germany it doesn't. If you have a stroke whilst having covid, you are said to have died of a stroke. If you have lung cancer and die with covid, the cause of death is lung cancer. I believe similar is true in Spain and many other countries. I believe Italy has been doing similar to what you say - if someone dies with COVID (not necessarily from COVID) then it is put down as a COVID death. I've seen some figures of excess deaths that are very troubling in terms of the UK. I think when all data problems are ironed out there are going to many questions that will need answering.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jun 1, 2020 20:57:11 GMT
2 things from me... I think we can criticise the government for lots of things but I'm not sure you can for the data around the death toll. If we declared deaths the way germany do, for example, our death toll would be significantly lower than the quoted figures. I'm also wondering if this is the 2nd wave/spike that we are going through. 6000 more people died in December 2019 than they did in 2018. I come into contact with plenty of people who travel to and from China regularly with the regions they visit being relatively close to wuhan.I know quite a few business people who were very ill with coronavirus symptoms in december and I was the same mid-December. Ridiculously high temperature, sweats, no taste, cough and intense lethargy that lasted all through christmas and well into the new year. I read an article this morning suggesting that this virus could have been here in November. If so, was this the 2nd wave? How feasible is that? Dave, was there any change they noticed re procedures in the airports, ie temperature testng started out of the blue etc. That's what happened to a colleague of my partner in October 2019 that hadn't happened on all his earlier trips that year? No idea specifically. I'll ask. They've often done things like that randomly over the years to be honest though it's quite a few years since I last travelled to China myself.
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 1, 2020 21:01:46 GMT
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Post by crapslinger on Jun 1, 2020 21:02:56 GMT
What's the general consensus on here as to whether the government have done a good job at managing Coronavirus? Anyone who voted for them in the recent GE who is now regretting that decision, or at least would vote for another party tomorrow? The furlough scheme was very good. Whether it continues to be as good if we have a second spike remains to be seen. As I see it, if we can bail the banks out to the tune of 500 billion then we've got loads of leeway to continue it. But who's going to pay for it when it's all over? Nothing less than a completely equitable sharing of the burden according to ability to pay will suffice for me. Regarding handling of the virus itself then I can only come to one conclusion. If the government were a private company and could be open to corporate manslaughter, those ministers and advisors running the show should go to jail. As an analogy, it's akin to the Bhopal disaster in India. OS. If the UK government and by default many others around the World are guilty of corporate manslaughter what should be the charge laid against the communist PRC government in your opinion ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 21:04:09 GMT
The furlough scheme was very good. Whether it continues to be as good if we have a second spike remains to be seen. As I see it, if we can bail the banks out to the tune of 500 billion then we've got loads of leeway to continue it. But who's going to pay for it when it's all over? Nothing less than a completely equitable sharing of the burden according to ability to pay will suffice for me. Regarding handling of the virus itself then I can only come to one conclusion. If the government were a private company and could be open to corporate manslaughter, those ministers and advisors running the show should go to jail. As an analogy, it's akin to the Bhopal disaster in India. OS. If the UK government and by default many others around the World are guilty of corporate manslaughter what should be the charge laid against the communist PRC government in your opinion ? Why don’t you tell us? Go on give an opinion I dare you......
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Post by Davef on Jun 1, 2020 21:08:11 GMT
RT are you taking the p*ss......t It's not an editorial piece, it's an article written by an English GP. If you choose to believe he's lying that's up to you.
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Post by neddy on Jun 1, 2020 21:09:07 GMT
If the UK government and by default many others around the World are guilty of corporate manslaughter what should be the charge laid against the communist PRC government in your opinion ? Why don’t you tell us? Go on give an opinion I dare you...... Bailing the banks out is not the full story for example the taxpayer subsidised Lloyd’s but Lloyd’s paid it back and made a profit for the government when its shares were sold. Sadly the taxpayer has to pick up the full ticket for this virus.....there is no offset.
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Post by stokeson on Jun 1, 2020 21:09:41 GMT
Yes it is working "as an Ambition".
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 1, 2020 21:37:06 GMT
I’ve thought that might be the case. Surely that renders comparison useless Possibly but you'd think the excess deaths data would enable some forms of comparison at some point in time. Profs Spigenthalter and Heneghan go with all cause mortality for crude comparisons and then advocate in depth studies for more nuanced understanding. But that will obviously take a lot of time. I think the Govt shot itself in the foot tbh by having them on the slides, because it gave it a sense of validity, which is obviously not quite there. Unless you’re comparing two massively different outbreaks like Italy/Uk and Korea where the differences are clearly down to management the direct comparisons at this stage will be anything but definitive. The thing I hesitate over though, if the “dying of” and “dying with” thing as though this is unique to Covid and is therefore some kind of cover up. Flu kills thousands of people every year yet only a fraction actually get tested. A larger fraction then have it put on a certificate as a cause of death but that still massively underestimates the flu burden and therefore you have a huge amount of modelling going on to calculate deaths related to flu. For the UK these estimates now come from the FluMoMo algorithm which is based on stuff like GP visits, temperature, hospital admissions, limited clinical swabs etc. Therefore the flu estimates given by these models massively exceed the testing and certification of the disease. But they are not for any second unreasonable numbers. The level of surveillance and testing we have for COVID at the moment is dwarfing that of Flu, but people making these comparisons seem to think the flu numbers are absolutely concrete when if anything they rely on far more modelling.
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Post by 828492 on Jun 1, 2020 21:37:47 GMT
Yes it is working "as an Ambition". I have an ambition to score a hat trick in Stoke City’s first ever Champions League victory. I don’t think that will happen. Sadly.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2020 21:39:18 GMT
Where have you read that Dave? Andrew Neil has suggested it’s like comparing apples with apples with ours and the German numbers. I haven't read it. I picked it up in conversation during a video conference with our German counterparts and suppliers. Cheers! Interesting but Andrew Neil normally doesn’t get these things wrong.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 1, 2020 21:40:21 GMT
Where have you read that Dave? Andrew Neil has suggested it’s like comparing apples with apples with ours and the German numbers. I’ve just read a fact check article on this and counting differences are numerous between countries I’m sure eventually someone will provide a true comparison but it’s not out there yet Excess death seems to be the best way. There’s some lag with a few countries but we’re way worst than most sadly.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 21:53:30 GMT
Political bias aside, we've handled this crisis diabolically. It doesn't matter where your allegiance is. Everyone can see it.
Certain countries have handled it brilliantly (Germany, South Korea, Australia etc).
Others have handled it like a bunch of amateurs. Complete incompetence from the start. Gross negligence throughout.
It's ironic that the countries that profess to be "Great" and "World Leaders" are the ones that are actually utterly incompetent. GB and USA have been completely shameless. We should hang our heads in shame at how we've handled it all.
We've had all the benefits of seeing how other countries suffered before us. We've had all the benefits of their advice of how to best tackle the virus.
We've ignored it all, and thousands have needlessly died. And to make it worse, our government is spinning it into some kind of victory. People have died as they twiddled their thumbs, and they have the face to tell us all how brilliant they've handled it.
And then go one step further by defending one of their rich mates who blatantly broke all the rules, despite it being absolutely obvious what he did. An absolute kick in the nuts. And you just know it will just go away, brushed under the carpet. Same as the care home scandal.
We are every bit as embarrassing, incompetent and shameful as Americas handling of this situation.
No doubt in a years time they'll still be telling everyone how USA and GB are global powers and how all other countries should be bowing down at our knees, in awe at our greatness.
The reality is we're run by a bunch of feckless, useless, incompetent, rich, cowards.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jun 1, 2020 22:01:40 GMT
I haven't read it. I picked it up in conversation during a video conference with our German counterparts and suppliers. Cheers! Interesting but Andrew Neil normally doesn’t get these things wrong. Andrew Neil is a complete enigma. He has created this political bulldog persona which has been heavily adopted by the BBC but when you dig a little deeper he is purely a puppet to his real paymasters over at The Spectator.
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Post by Gods on Jun 1, 2020 22:04:05 GMT
I’ve just read a fact check article on this and counting differences are numerous between countries I’m sure eventually someone will provide a true comparison but it’s not out there yet Excess death seems to be the best way. There’s some lag with a few countries but we’re way worst than most sadly. Yes I believe 'excess' deaths is how such pandemics are measured historically. Its the only measure which really makes any sense if you think about it. Having said that it doesn't make much difference what measure you pick, we've had an absolute nightmare with this one here in the UK!
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Post by chad on Jun 1, 2020 22:05:15 GMT
I’ve just read a fact check article on this and counting differences are numerous between countries I’m sure eventually someone will provide a true comparison but it’s not out there yet Excess death seems to be the best way. There’s some lag with a few countries but we’re way worst than most sadly. I’m not sure excess deaths. By which I assume that’s an excess over say a five year average, is the best way. Surely we are trying to measure how many deaths caused by Covid 19. Excess deaths could have far too many variables
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jun 1, 2020 22:10:11 GMT
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Post by Gods on Jun 1, 2020 22:10:12 GMT
Political bias aside, we've handled this crisis diabolically. It doesn't matter where your allegiance is. Everyone can see it. Certain countries have handled it brilliantly (Germany, South Korea, Australia etc). Others have handled it like a bunch of amateurs. Complete incompetence from the start. Gross negligence throughout. It's ironic that the countries that profess to be "Great" and "World Leaders" are the ones that are actually utterly incompetent. GB and USA have been completely shameless. We should hang our heads in shame at how we've handled it all. We've had all the benefits of seeing how other countries suffered before us. We've had all the benefits of their advice of how to best tackle the virus. We've ignored it all, and thousands have needlessly died. And to make it worse, our government is spinning it into some kind of victory. People have died as they twiddled their thumbs, and they have the face to tell us all how brilliant they've handled it. And then go one step further by defending one of their rich mates who blatantly broke all the rules, despite it being absolutely obvious what he did. An absolute kick in the nuts. And you just know it will just go away, brushed under the carpet. Same as the care home scandal. We are every bit as embarrassing, incompetent and shameful as Americas handling of this situation. No doubt in a years time they'll still be telling everyone how USA and GB are global powers and how all other countries should be bowing down at our knees, in awe at our greatness. The reality is we're run by a bunch of feckless, useless, incompetent, rich, cowards. Yep, 3 weeks too late locking down and hung the Care Homes out to dry, oh well, next time!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2020 22:16:12 GMT
WTF??
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Jun 1, 2020 22:21:52 GMT
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