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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 18, 2020 11:09:24 GMT
[snip]None of these. Have a targeted lockdown which shelters the vulnerable, no furlough needed (except for the tiny proportion of vulnerable of a working age), incur no debt. Saving hundreds of thousands of lives in the process because as we know, suicides, untreated illness and death by numerous other causes related to economic hardship will be devestating over the next couple of years. Before you come back with your stock answer (no country has sheltered the vulnerable therefore its impossible). We already know it is possible because over 90% of working British citizens do NOT live with an elderly family number as Paul Spencer has repeatedly posted. Blanket lockdowns are lazy, massively costly (in jobs, livelihoods and lives), and astoundingly short sighted. Who counts as "the vulnerable" and is "shelter" something like locking them completely away from any human contact? Or what, specifically? Shelter in exactly the same way the entire population was and is being "sheltered". Stay at home where possible and basically do everything they are already doing.
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Post by Northy on Dec 18, 2020 11:09:28 GMT
The situation is so grave in Switzerland that mannequins are catching Covid. Nurse training set up, it's posted quite a few times on that twitter feed, but why bother with the full story when an MSM type post will do
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Post by Northy on Dec 18, 2020 11:12:19 GMT
Who counts as "the vulnerable" and is "shelter" something like locking them completely away from any human contact? Or what, specifically? Shelter in exactly the same way the entire population was and is being "sheltered". Stay at home where possible and basically do everything they are already doing. So, increase the suicides in the elderly and death rate from isolation ?
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 18, 2020 11:15:54 GMT
But it isn't going to save millions of jobs is it? That's the whole point. Let's see then. If in 12 months, furlough proves to be a master stroke that saved millions of jobs and hasn't left us with wartime levels of debt, I'll happily concede it was a success. Amazed you think otherwise. Yes it is, that's the point. As much as you like to paint the bleak picture, many many businesses are surviving purely because of the measures been put in place. Some have gone to the wall yes but a lot are effectively on pause ready to go when they can. Without Furlough that wouldn't have been possible. Making redundancies is an expensive thing to businesses that involves staff that have been there for a few years, it's the last thing they'll want to do and the Furlough scheme has so far prevented a big number of them. I work in Payroll for a lot of businesses in Stoke, I've so far seen 6 redundancies and a couple of early retirements. The furlough scheme has been brilliant for a lot of workers. Sorry but with respect, that's not what I'm saying. Of course we've seen redundancies and businesses survive based on the furlough scheme, by default that happens when the government plough 600 billion into a bail out scheme. Although that's not to say hundreds of thousands haven't already lost their jobs and businesses. My point is that this has to end at some point and when it ends their will be absolute carnage. You can disagree if you want but the picture is pretty bleak. We've got the best part of 1,000 on furlough at our place, much to my despair (because I know what's going to happen to them), they are all ready, lined up and waiting to be shot - it's an awful situation and they have no idea what lies ahead. Furloughs playing with people's lives. I think it's fairly naive to think that once furlough ends, the economy won't enter its biggest crash on record.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 18, 2020 11:18:08 GMT
Shelter in exactly the same way the entire population was and is being "sheltered". Stay at home where possible and basically do everything they are already doing. So, increase the suicides in the elderly and death rate from isolation ? Sorry? They are already largely staying at home in isolation? I'm confused by the mindset of "it's not fair for just the elderly to be in lockdown, we need to all do it together".
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Post by andystokey on Dec 18, 2020 11:21:00 GMT
I've done some further number crunching on the data provided in the Monthly NHS data set Source : www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/Comparing the bed occupancy with Covid positive patients with Total beds available and current total occupancy. The main argument in these next 2 months is will the NHS be overwhelmed.There are currently 120k beds in the NHS of various types Source: www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/- We are close to full bed occupancy about 7k away 94% occupancy at this time of year is pretty normal, but caution makes sense.
- The correlation between positive NHS admissions is not directly impacting Total bed occupancy 1 for 1. That is to say 15k positive Covid Hospital Cases in to Dec 3 haven't increased Total Occupancy by 15k, this infers that these patients are positive but not unexpected.
- You can see that the argument about overloading in April was about ventilator beds and not general beds which is where the focus is now.
Attachment Deleted
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Post by chad on Dec 18, 2020 11:42:42 GMT
Nice of Darren from Plymouth to take such interest in a nurse training publicity shot from Switzerland. Everyone has their fetish I guess. Why do people feel the need to post any old shit from Twitter and take it as gospel. Come on. This thread would be 1500 pages shorter without the twittershit
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Post by Paul Spencer on Dec 18, 2020 11:49:28 GMT
I can't find the source for this data but it's pretty damning if it's confirmed ... Here you go Paul Ive done the arithmetic myself for all time since the beginning of the pandemic View Attachmentabout 42k admitted with Covid 122k were discharged Covid patients !!! Edit PS I only did England to get 70% the remainder are Wales, Scotland and NI gets you to 74% as per the tweet. Thanks for taking the time to do this Andy ... quite astonishing figures.
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Post by franklin on Dec 18, 2020 11:51:17 GMT
But it isn't going to save millions of jobs is it? That's the whole point. Let's see then. If in 12 months, furlough proves to be a master stroke that saved millions of jobs and hasn't left us with wartime levels of debt, I'll happily concede it was a success. Amazed you think otherwise. Yes it is, that's the point. As much as you like to paint the bleak picture, many many businesses are surviving purely because of the measures been put in place. Some have gone to the wall yes but a lot are effectively on pause ready to go when they can. Without Furlough that wouldn't have been possible. Making redundancies is an expensive thing to businesses that involves staff that have been there for a few years, it's the last thing they'll want to do and the Furlough scheme has so far prevented a big number of them. I work in Payroll for a lot of businesses in Stoke, I've so far seen 6 redundancies and a couple of early retirements. The furlough scheme has been brilliant for a lot of workers. Redundancy is expensive except when the business goes bump which is a possibility for thousands of smaller businesses. Furlough is a good thing but its also possible thats its just delaying the inevitable which again short term is good for the employees but the end result is the same.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Dec 18, 2020 11:52:50 GMT
I've done some further number crunching on the data provided in the Monthly NHS data set Source : www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/Comparing the bed occupancy with Covid positive patients with Total beds available and current total occupancy. The main argument in these next 2 months is will the NHS be overwhelmed.There are currently 120k beds in the NHS of various types Source: www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/- We are close to full bed occupancy about 7k away 94% occupancy at this time of year is pretty normal, but caution makes sense.
- The correlation between positive NHS admissions is not directly impacting Total bed occupancy 1 for 1. That is to say 15k positive Covid Hospital Cases in to Dec 3 haven't increased Total Occupancy by 15k, this infers that these patients are positive but not unexpected.
- You can see that the argument about overloading in April was about ventilator beds and not general beds which is where the focus is now.
View AttachmentWe know that bed capacity is limited by staff - has the government ever addressed what would happen if we did become overwhelmed? It would seem an odd tactic to suggest something like that could happen but then stand back and assume the only solution is to let people die.
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Post by starkiller on Dec 18, 2020 11:54:13 GMT
Here's the summary of the case. I posted this way back, but obviously got laughed out of town. And he was dismissed as a crank by the usual suspects. This is a re-upload because it's often taken down. Clearly, genocidal maniac Tedros doesn't like it, as he's named in this too. So you're basically a social media conduit for Bobby Kennedy Jnr and his anti vaxxer cronies: Bobby Kennedy JnrAnti-Vaxxer MovementAnti Vaxxer ConspiracySerious question - why have you chosen to believe this stuff? So you give me a pile of your own links and ask me why I believe them? This is strawmanning. You were off on an internet trawl because you heard the words Bobby Kennedy, when the case described is about PCR tests? And obviously the internet, which becomes more and more like the ccps great firewall, full of easy to find state propaganda, alongside censorship of contrary information. And also the 'fact-checkers' who are nothing of the sort, which are mentioned in the case. There's no saying that even Fuellmich is in full ascent to all of Kennedy's beliefs but simply a crossover of lawyers. This is your Modus operandi, trying to smear by association. Well maybe try it with SAGE and the WHO and see who stands to gain amongst that bunch. And your hero is Marianna Spring, that child from the BBC who uses the same laughable methods. Smear by association, labelling, grouping together, caricature, and dismissiveness but without engagement with serious counter-argument. So, is the PCR a reliable indicator of infection, particularly way above the recommended cycles? Is asymptomatic spread really an issue? If so, why is a vaccine presented that claims to reduce symptoms and therefore a way to reduce infection?
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Post by Gob Bluth on Dec 18, 2020 11:59:36 GMT
Yes it is, that's the point. As much as you like to paint the bleak picture, many many businesses are surviving purely because of the measures been put in place. Some have gone to the wall yes but a lot are effectively on pause ready to go when they can. Without Furlough that wouldn't have been possible. Making redundancies is an expensive thing to businesses that involves staff that have been there for a few years, it's the last thing they'll want to do and the Furlough scheme has so far prevented a big number of them. I work in Payroll for a lot of businesses in Stoke, I've so far seen 6 redundancies and a couple of early retirements. The furlough scheme has been brilliant for a lot of workers. Redundancy is expensive except when the business goes bump which is a possibility for thousands of smaller businesses. Furlough is a good thing but its also possible thats its just delaying the inevitable which again short term is good for the employees but the end result is the same. I know it's not perfect but the hope would be the furlough scheme could overlap with reduced restrictions providing some cash flow. The emergency loans I think don't require any payments for a year so this could help some businesses, obviously others that work on small margins won't survive in the long run. The other point might be some business owners who can afford it might roll up a business for a year or two, take a break and come back later. For some industries it must feel like you're fighting the government, if you can afford to not bother it might be a very appealing option.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 18, 2020 12:09:42 GMT
The only thing I can tell you from the data published is that the current NHS absences due to Covid are less than in April (see below) I would assume that the NHS more generally is understaffed but I cant comment on the Government's lack of investment in the NHS over many years. View AttachmentWhy?
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Post by andystokey on Dec 18, 2020 12:10:16 GMT
I've done some further number crunching on the data provided in the Monthly NHS data set Source : www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/Comparing the bed occupancy with Covid positive patients with Total beds available and current total occupancy. The main argument in these next 2 months is will the NHS be overwhelmed.There are currently 120k beds in the NHS of various types Source: www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/- We are close to full bed occupancy about 7k away 94% occupancy at this time of year is pretty normal, but caution makes sense.
- The correlation between positive NHS admissions is not directly impacting Total bed occupancy 1 for 1. That is to say 15k positive Covid Hospital Cases in to Dec 3 haven't increased Total Occupancy by 15k, this infers that these patients are positive but not unexpected.
- You can see that the argument about overloading in April was about ventilator beds and not general beds which is where the focus is now.
View AttachmentWe know that bed capacity is limited by staff - has the government ever addressed what would happen if we did become overwhelmed? It would seem an odd tactic to suggest something like that could happen but then stand back and assume the only solution is to let people die. The only thing I can tell you from the data published is that the current NHS absences due to Covid are less than in April (see below) I would assume that the NHS more generally is understaffed but I cant comment on the Government's lack of investment in the NHS over many years. Attachment Deleted
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Post by andystokey on Dec 18, 2020 12:14:06 GMT
The only thing I can tell you from the data published is that the current NHS absences due to Covid are less than in April (see below) I would assume that the NHS more generally is understaffed but I cant comment on the Government's lack of investment in the NHS over many years. View AttachmentWhy? Well I could, you're right but it would get me into a row about that rather than the data. I've previously posted a while ago on here about how the money we've chucked at this problem had it been invested instead of austerity we would not be tickling the red line line now. The number of beds has reduced immensely in the last 30 years in the UK "from around 299,000 in 1987/88 to 141,000 in 2018/9" Source: www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbersAttachment Deleted
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 18, 2020 13:39:17 GMT
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 18, 2020 13:42:11 GMT
January lockdown here we come 🙄
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Post by Gary Hackett on Dec 18, 2020 13:50:22 GMT
January lockdown here we come 🙄 Inevitable. Good to see this Herd immunity that all the fraudsters were talking about has come to fruition.
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Post by chigstoke on Dec 18, 2020 13:55:42 GMT
Mike Pence on TV gets the vaccination.
Conspiracy Theories are going to hit an all time high
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Dec 18, 2020 13:58:16 GMT
January lockdown here we come 🙄 Inevitable. Good to see this Herd immunity that all the fraudsters were talking about has come to fruition. There’s plenty of them about mate
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Post by smallthorner on Dec 18, 2020 14:00:38 GMT
January lockdown here we come 🙄 Inevitable. Good to see this Herd immunity that all the fraudsters were talking about has come to fruition. Dangerous fraudsters as well. Just like the anti-vax people. Menace to society.
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Post by franklin on Dec 18, 2020 14:10:14 GMT
This is interesting for some my lads flown home for Christmas he took a test in Germany which was negative but decided to go to the bet365 this morning just to be safe and he was amazed at how good the test center was in and out in less than 5mins. He said it was miles better than at home in Germany.
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Post by Northy on Dec 18, 2020 14:22:24 GMT
I've done some further number crunching on the data provided in the Monthly NHS data set Source : www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/Comparing the bed occupancy with Covid positive patients with Total beds available and current total occupancy. The main argument in these next 2 months is will the NHS be overwhelmed.There are currently 120k beds in the NHS of various types Source: www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/bed-availability-and-occupancy/bed-data-overnight/- We are close to full bed occupancy about 7k away 94% occupancy at this time of year is pretty normal, but caution makes sense.
- The correlation between positive NHS admissions is not directly impacting Total bed occupancy 1 for 1. That is to say 15k positive Covid Hospital Cases in to Dec 3 haven't increased Total Occupancy by 15k, this infers that these patients are positive but not unexpected.
- You can see that the argument about overloading in April was about ventilator beds and not general beds which is where the focus is now.
View AttachmentWe know that bed capacity is limited by staff - has the government ever addressed what would happen if we did become overwhelmed? It would seem an odd tactic to suggest something like that could happen but then stand back and assume the only solution is to let people die. Nightingale hospitals and Armed forces medical staff ? I'm sure they must have just put the stuff in a big warehouse somewhere ?
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Post by starkiller on Dec 18, 2020 14:29:25 GMT
We know that bed capacity is limited by staff - has the government ever addressed what would happen if we did become overwhelmed? It would seem an odd tactic to suggest something like that could happen but then stand back and assume the only solution is to let people die. Nightingale hospitals and Armed forces medical staff ? I'm sure they must have just put the stuff in a big warehouse somewhere ?
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Post by Northy on Dec 18, 2020 14:32:36 GMT
Nightingale hospitals and Armed forces medical staff ? I'm sure they must have just put the stuff in a big warehouse somewhere ? What's that info for? I was answering his question about 'has the government addressed if we did become overwhelmed'
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Post by Gary Hackett on Dec 18, 2020 14:43:17 GMT
Inevitable. Good to see this Herd immunity that all the fraudsters were talking about has come to fruition. Dangerous fraudsters as well. Just like the anti-vax people. Menace to society. And don't forget the 'great reset' conspiracy theorists. There's a lot of brain washed people in the world.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Dec 18, 2020 14:43:18 GMT
Mike Pence on TV gets the vaccination. Conspiracy Theories are going to hit an all time high God this is creepy.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Dec 18, 2020 15:09:35 GMT
So you give me a pile of your own links and ask me why I believe them? This is strawmanning. You were off on an internet trawl because you heard the words Bobby Kennedy, when the case described is about PCR tests? And obviously the internet, which becomes more and more like the ccps great firewall, full of easy to find state propaganda, alongside censorship of contrary information. And also the 'fact-checkers' who are nothing of the sort, which are mentioned in the case. There's no saying that even Fuellmich is in full ascent to all of Kennedy's beliefs but simply a crossover of lawyers. This is your Modus operandi, trying to smear by association. Well maybe try it with SAGE and the WHO and see who stands to gain amongst that bunch. And your hero is Marianna Spring, that child from the BBC who uses the same laughable methods. Smear by association, labelling, grouping together, caricature, and dismissiveness but without engagement with serious counter-argument. So, is the PCR a reliable indicator of infection, particularly way above the recommended cycles? Is asymptomatic spread really an issue? If so, why is a vaccine presented that claims to reduce symptoms and therefore a way to reduce infection? PCR tests are being used for 2 purposes: 1 Modelling and public health policy. PCR tests are reliable enough to give an indicator of the level of infection. If you have an idea of the degree of accuracy of the tests (which the people using them do) they are adequate for modelling and formulating policy. They do not have to be 100% accurate to do the job. 2 To indicate whether someone should self isolate in order to prevent infecting others. Set the cycle limit too low and the danger is infecting others due to false negatives. Set the cycle too high and some people self isolate even though they are not positive. So do you err on the side of caution and have some people inconvenienced for no good reason or risk additional infections or more covid deaths? Asymptomatic spread IS an issue - see here. It would appear you are less likely to spread the virus if you end up being asymptomatic than if you end up asymptomatic but you can still spread it (one of the studies cited in the article suggests "asymptomatic individuals were 42% less likely to transmit the virus than symptomatic people". The bigger issue is people who are pre-symptomatic - ie they have the virus but have developed symptoms. The idea that asymptomatic people do not spread the virus is simply wrong. There may be people who have a false positive PCR test but they are not asymptomatic - they just don't have the virus. You seem to be confusing the two. Do you actually understand how a vaccine works? A vaccine does not simply reduce symptoms. It prevents a virus from replicating in your body, which means you are less likely to develop symptoms AND less likely to infect others. The testing to date only indicates how effective the vaccines are are preventing the development of symptoms (over 90% in the case of the one currently being rolled out in the UK). What is not known is HOW effective the vaccines are at reducing transmissipon. What is known is that they WILL reduce transmission because the vaccines massively reduce the amount of virus in general circulation. What you hate about my responses to your posts is that I expose your flawed understanding and contextualise what you are saying. You want people to just accept what you say at face value and can't stand it when I point out the holes in your arguments, that the sources for your arguments are fundamentally unreliable and that if you scratch beneath the surface there is a network of inter related lies and half truths that mesh together to form a belief system that falls apart when exposed to critical analysis. You don't think - you believe. You are hypersensitive to having your beliefs pulled apart because you are incapable of putting up a logical argument to defend what you are saying - all you can do is bleat about being attacked for your beliefs or throw in a few more web links to "prove" what you say is "true". By all means express your beliefs - but at least have the balls to accept they might well get shot down.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Dec 18, 2020 15:20:25 GMT
January lockdown here we come 🙄 You sound like you thought there might not be a Jan lockdown? Was always going to happen.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Dec 18, 2020 15:27:51 GMT
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