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Post by chad on Aug 18, 2020 11:10:22 GMT
I’m fucking sick of this wank virus. In fact, I’m more sick of the state of society, this for the most part is a mild illness, yet the whole world has been absolutely destroyed in the biggest overreaction I’ve ever seen and will ever see in my entire life, entire swathes of people terrified of leaving their front door, wagging their fingers at people daring to live a normal life, businesses folding, livelihoods destroyed, lives ruined, for what? I’m not going to get into my full thoughts on this fucking nightmare of a year, I simply don’t have the energy to do so. I suffer acutely with my mental health, with a most charming quartet of depression, generalised anxiety & panic disorder, and complex post-traumatic stress disorder, my routine was the only thing keeping me on the straight and narrow and that was completely destroyed, I couldn’t go to the gym for months, which for me helps enormously, I couldn’t see friends, I couldn’t go anywhere or do anything, throw into the mix the company I work for almost going bust as a result of this lockdown (I never want to hear that word again in my life) And adding even more stress to a mind already maxxed out with stress and turmoil it’s a miracle I’m still here. This is the true effect of this lockdown, more lives will be lost as a result of this than were lost as a result of the virus, by some considerable margin, I spent a few days in Prague a couple of weeks ago and it was paradise in comparison, people enjoying life, getting pissed in bars, embracing one another, not living their lives in fear, and guess what? I come back totally fine, yet the media has everyone convinced that as soon as they dare step out of their front door they will be killed to death. I want my fucking life back, and quick. There’s a very fine line now between going back to normal or continuing restrictions. We’re all fed up of the bloody thing and though infection rates are a bit worrying the current death rate is probably miles lower than that for numerous other complaints Question is, are the current rates only so low because of the restrictions in place. Brave man to say “ let’s just throw the restrictions away and see what happens” A question that’s already been asked Would you attend a Stoke game next week with a crowd of 20000 I’m getting on a bit but in reasonable shape with no health problems. But I think Sadly I’d stay away
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Post by Davef on Aug 18, 2020 11:19:51 GMT
Sweden to ban face masks? Because they increase the number of Corona cases, they thought. No, I can't see it happen. Pure speculations. But obviously, reports show some people here use them wrong - removing them inside the shops, touching and scratching their faces, lips, eyes after they've touched the items. It looks like the only political party advocating face coverings in Sweden is the Sweden Democrats, a far right party.
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Post by phileetin on Aug 18, 2020 11:22:24 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 11:24:41 GMT
I wonder what response you would get if you said that face to face to one of the relatives of someone who died from Covid? I'm deeply sad that you suffer from mental health issues, but I'm sure you will understand that this killer of over 40,000 UK citizens has also caused stress and depression to their relatives. Most of those 40000 would probably have been killed by flu or their pre-existing conditions Inevitable, sad but true Utter tripe. Whatever your take on the current situation, to suggest that someone who is overweight, has a pre-existing condition, or whatever it may be couldn't live for another 5/10/15/25/30 years is just plain wrong.......
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Post by Gods on Aug 18, 2020 11:29:34 GMT
We're all comparing 40,000 deaths against deaths and economic meltdown caused by lockdown itself.
And most of us are concluding it wasn't worth it.
The number we don't have and will never have is the number of deaths WITHOUT lockdown
That is what is really needed for a meaningful comparison.
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Post by adri2008 on Aug 18, 2020 11:37:59 GMT
The problem we have now is that nobody has any real idea what is going to occur over the next few months (extent of second wave or even if there'll be one) so government's are erring on the side of overkill rather than not doing enough. All feels a bit ridiculous right now when you look at the actual figures but you can understand the thinking behind the restrictions.
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Post by OldStokie on Aug 18, 2020 11:40:48 GMT
We're all comparing 40,000 deaths against deaths and economic meltdown caused by lockdown itself. And most of us are concluding it wasn't worth it.
The number we don't have and will never have is the number of deaths WITHOUT lockdown That is what is really needed for a meaningful comparison. I'm pretty sure your highlighted words are not true, Gods. While most people are pissed off to the back teeth of this damned virus, I'm pretty sure most people think that lockdown was worth it. In fact most people don't think it happened soon enough and some people actually believe the easing of some restrictions are too hasty. OS.
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Post by Davef on Aug 18, 2020 11:43:50 GMT
We're all comparing 40,000 deaths against deaths and economic meltdown caused by lockdown itself. And most of us are concluding it wasn't worth it. The number we don't have and will never have is the number of deaths WITHOUT lockdown That is what is really needed for a meaningful comparison. Your answer to that is Sweden. Based on Ferguson's model and no strict lockdown they should have been staring 80,000 deaths in the face. Their current total is 5,787.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2020 11:47:07 GMT
I’m fucking sick of this wank virus. In fact, I’m more sick of the state of society, this for the most part is a mild illness, yet the whole world has been absolutely destroyed in the biggest overreaction I’ve ever seen and will ever see in my entire life, entire swathes of people terrified of leaving their front door, wagging their fingers at people daring to live a normal life, businesses folding, livelihoods destroyed, lives ruined, for what? I’m not going to get into my full thoughts on this fucking nightmare of a year, I simply don’t have the energy to do so. I suffer acutely with my mental health, with a most charming quartet of depression, generalised anxiety & panic disorder, and complex post-traumatic stress disorder, my routine was the only thing keeping me on the straight and narrow and that was completely destroyed, I couldn’t go to the gym for months, which for me helps enormously, I couldn’t see friends, I couldn’t go anywhere or do anything, throw into the mix the company I work for almost going bust as a result of this lockdown (I never want to hear that word again in my life) And adding even more stress to a mind already maxxed out with stress and turmoil it’s a miracle I’m still here. This is the true effect of this lockdown, more lives will be lost as a result of this than were lost as a result of the virus, by some considerable margin, I spent a few days in Prague a couple of weeks ago and it was paradise in comparison, people enjoying life, getting pissed in bars, embracing one another, not living their lives in fear, and guess what? I come back totally fine, yet the media has everyone convinced that as soon as they dare step out of their front door they will be killed to death. I want my fucking life back, and quick. There’s a very fine line now between going back to normal or continuing restrictions. We’re all fed up of the bloody thing and though infection rates are a bit worrying the current death rate is probably miles lower than that for numerous other complaints Question is, are the current rates only so low because of the restrictions in place. Brave man to say “ let’s just throw the restrictions away and see what happens” A question that’s already been asked Would you attend a Stoke game next week with a crowd of 20000 I’m getting on a bit but in reasonable shape with no health problems. But I think Sadly I’d stay away Correct. It was me who posed the question. I have asked the same at work and the majority of people would not attend. Even the young uns. Think it's a good litmus test actually on opinions.
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Post by smallthorner on Aug 18, 2020 11:48:27 GMT
Unbelievable that. And I'm not sure in a good way or bad way.
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Post by Gods on Aug 18, 2020 12:00:25 GMT
We're all comparing 40,000 deaths against deaths and economic meltdown caused by lockdown itself. And most of us are concluding it wasn't worth it.
The number we don't have and will never have is the number of deaths WITHOUT lockdown That is what is really needed for a meaningful comparison. I'm pretty sure your highlighted words are not true, Gods. While most people are pissed off to the back teeth of this damned virus, I'm pretty sure most people think that lockdown was worth it. In fact most people don't think it happened soon enough and some people actually believe the easing of some restrictions are too hasty. OS. Substitute 'most' for 'many' then fair enough, but my question of substance remains, what would the total number of deaths have been WITHOUT lockdown? And the answer to that would likely support the case for lockdown massively.
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 18, 2020 12:03:39 GMT
The problem we have now is that nobody has any real idea what is going to occur over the next few months (extent of second wave or even if there'll be one) so government's are erring on the side of overkill rather than not doing enough. All feels a bit ridiculous right now when you look at the actual figures but you can understand the thinking behind the resrestriction I don't even know what's going on anymore, the government have all but disappeared and I don't know what the plan is. Are we waiting for a vaccine or some other form of medication? It doesn't feel like there is a plan to reduce the number of cases to zero, we have sort of flatlined and the path forward is so unclear it feels like we should all just say fuck it and carry on with normal life. Where are the hospital's with this now? Do they have a grip on how to keep most people safe through their own methods. There's a serious lack of communication between the government and the people. It almost feels like we're on our own to deal with it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 12:05:57 GMT
We're all comparing 40,000 deaths against deaths and economic meltdown caused by lockdown itself. And most of us are concluding it wasn't worth it. The number we don't have and will never have is the number of deaths WITHOUT lockdown That is what is really needed for a meaningful comparison. Your answer to that is Sweden. Based on Ferguson's model and no strict lockdown they should have been staring 80,000 deaths in the face. Their current total is 5,787. Sweden have the same economic outlook for the final quarter of the year as Norway and Denmark who locked down, their unemployment rate is higher also. It will be interesting to see how it pans out but I would suggest it's too early to say they made the right call......
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Post by salopstick on Aug 18, 2020 12:10:57 GMT
Most of those 40000 would probably have been killed by flu or their pre-existing conditions Inevitable, sad but true Utter tripe. Whatever your take on the current situation, to suggest that someone who is overweight, has a pre-existing condition, or whatever it may be couldn't live for another 5/10/15/25/30 years is just plain wrong....... Not when the average age of death is in the 70-80 age bracket no
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 18, 2020 12:12:30 GMT
China instantly gets on top of it then they can get back to normal quickly, we have 2 completely different strategies. They will keep having spikes but they will have periods where they can move freely and they can go back to work normally. We just have a some sort of prolonged standstill where nobody knows what's going on whilst everything struggles to get going again.
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Post by Davef on Aug 18, 2020 12:13:01 GMT
Your answer to that is Sweden. Based on Ferguson's model and no strict lockdown they should have been staring 80,000 deaths in the face. Their current total is 5,787. Sweden have the same economic outlook for the final quarter of the year as Norway and Denmark who locked down, their unemployment rate is higher also. It will be interesting to see how it pans out but I would suggest it's too early to say they made the right call...... I think Gods was talking more about deaths with no lockdown. Sweden and Brazil (also no strict lockdown) are both on less than 600 per 1m of population which is more than comparable with plenty of locked down countries. And I don't really see why, during a global pandemic, Sweden have to be continually compared to two or three other Scandinavian countries.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 12:21:27 GMT
Sweden have the same economic outlook for the final quarter of the year as Norway and Denmark who locked down, their unemployment rate is higher also. It will be interesting to see how it pans out but I would suggest it's too early to say they made the right call...... I think Gods was talking more about deaths with no lockdown. Sweden and Brazil (also no strict lockdown) are both on less than 600 per 1m of population which is more than comparable with plenty of locked down countries. And I don't really see why, during a global pandemic, Sweden have to be continually compared to two or three other Scandinavian countries. I know he was talking about deaths, but one of the major reasons for their strategy was to protect the economy. So I guess if Norway and Denmark end up recovering equally or better from an economic perspective then Sweden's high death rate will come back to bite the decision makers in the arse. Scandinavian countries will naturally look at their close neighbours as a comparison, we get compared to Western Europe rightly or wrongly.....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 12:28:23 GMT
Utter tripe. Whatever your take on the current situation, to suggest that someone who is overweight, has a pre-existing condition, or whatever it may be couldn't live for another 5/10/15/25/30 years is just plain wrong....... Not when the average age of death is in the 70-80 age bracket no What an awful take when a 70 year old could have another 25 years to live. If Sir Tom Moore had died of Coronavirus a week before we even knew about his £33m charity walk you'd have shrugged your shoulder and said "Well he'd have died anyway" All lives should be valued. Those people suffering economically well they've got plenty of time to get another job haven't they? They're healthy, they've got time on their side, they just need to get on their bikes. That's your general attitude to things......
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 18, 2020 12:43:18 GMT
Most of those 40000 would probably have been killed by flu or their pre-existing conditions Inevitable, sad but true Utter tripe. Whatever your take on the current situation, to suggest that someone who is overweight, has a pre-existing condition, or whatever it may be couldn't live for another 5/10/15/25/30 years is just plain wrong....... Indeed. I'm 54 and 12 years ago I had a really bad cough that didn't go away for weeks, after some hospital tests, I was diagnosed with COPD. The cough ultimately cleared up and I haven't had ANY medication or treatment for COPD ever, indeed I haven't taken any medication for ANYTHING ever, apart from the odd Lem-sip. I have absolutely ZERO issues as a result of the diagnosis. At my last health check, all my vitals were input into the computer and it gave me a life expectancy of 79. Another 25 years of life. However if I die of Covid, in Salop's world, well, hey, I would have had it coming to me anyway, due to my underlying health condition. The 'underlying health condition' umbrella that was introduced from the start, is a far too broad 'catch-all' that leads many people to mistakenly believe, that all the people covered by it, were about to croak anyway.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 18, 2020 13:05:48 GMT
Can't say the predicted dystopian future is all that frightening to be honest...
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Post by musik on Aug 18, 2020 13:06:36 GMT
No, I can't see it happen. Pure speculations. But obviously, reports show some people here use them wrong - removing them inside the shops, touching and scratching their faces, lips, eyes after they've touched the items. It looks like the only political party advocating face coverings in Sweden is the Sweden Democrats, a far right party. Not completely true. The Christ Democrats are for it too. On our scale, even more to the right than SD. Correction: It could depend on who you listen to. I listen to Ebba ... I was the only one wearing it today at the Supermarket, among 110 other customers.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 18, 2020 13:07:57 GMT
It looks like the only political party advocating face coverings in Sweden is the Sweden Democrats, a far right party. Not completely true. The Christ Democrats are for it too. On our scale, even more to the right than SD. I was the only one wearing it today at the Supermarket, among 110 other customers. So, in other words, there is little change to your actual day to day existence?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 18, 2020 13:09:42 GMT
Very interesting read (although he could do with properly proof reading it) Dave, especially his theory that the majority of positive tests that we are seeing now, are actually false positives. That's the bit I've been missing, in failing to understand the idea, that there was already widespread immunity in the community before Covid even arrived here. I so hope he's right but in the last 3 days, Spain has recorded 16,000 new cases, are we really attributing most of these cases to false positive test results?
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Post by musik on Aug 18, 2020 13:10:49 GMT
Not completely true. The Christ Democrats are for it too. On our scale, even more to the right than SD. I was the only one wearing it today at the Supermarket, among 110 other customers. So, in other words, there is little change to your actual day to day existence? To me personally, no difference at all.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 18, 2020 13:13:15 GMT
So, in other words, there is little change to your actual day to day existence? To me personally, no difference at all. Hmmm, this dystopian, totalitarian world we're entering doesn't seem all that different to the one we're currently living in. Can't say I'm all that surprised to be honest...
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Post by salopstick on Aug 18, 2020 13:23:21 GMT
Utter tripe. Whatever your take on the current situation, to suggest that someone who is overweight, has a pre-existing condition, or whatever it may be couldn't live for another 5/10/15/25/30 years is just plain wrong....... Indeed. I'm 54 and 12 years ago I had a really bad cough that didn't go away for weeks, after some hospital tests, I was diagnosed with COPD. The cough ultimately cleared up and I haven't had ANY medication or treatment for COPD ever, indeed I haven't taken any medication for ANYTHING ever, apart from the odd Lem-sip. I have absolutely ZERO issues as a result of the diagnosis. At my last health check, all my vitals were input into the computer and it gave me a life expectancy of 79. Another 25 years of life. However if I die of Covid, in Salop's world, well, hey, I would have had it coming to me anyway, due to my underlying health condition. The 'underlying health condition' umbrella that was introduced from the start, is a far too broad 'catch-all' that leads many people to mistakenly believe, that all the people covered by it, were about to croak anyway. It’s not that at all Paul. I’m not some heartless person contrary to popular belief but I appreciate and understand the fact that people are dying. Unfortunately the covid response has been to fuck the world over. People are still dying from the effects of lockdown measures. People are suffering mentally from lockdown measures. Etc etc This supposed pandemic has a total death in this country similar and with a similar demographic to flu and pneumonia. It’s the same people dying. If it was a different demographic dying I’d see a different point of view but we lose thousands to flu every year. Some years low some high. We’ve had nightingale hospitals unused, this pandemic is being used to scare people through the media and the result in this mayhem in the world The argument that without the lockdown 400000 could have died is theory only. The result is economic catastrophe, jobs gone, poverty, and more lives lost and a misery in wellbeing for hundreds of thousand of people. I get the argument if it was one of my loved ones. But the effects of lockdown have affected my loved ones. As at i done just stated. Protests crowded beaches etc and still our numbers are coming down
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 13:30:06 GMT
Indeed. I'm 54 and 12 years ago I had a really bad cough that didn't go away for weeks, after some hospital tests, I was diagnosed with COPD. The cough ultimately cleared up and I haven't had ANY medication or treatment for COPD ever, indeed I haven't taken any medication for ANYTHING ever, apart from the odd Lem-sip. I have absolutely ZERO issues as a result of the diagnosis. At my last health check, all my vitals were input into the computer and it gave me a life expectancy of 79. Another 25 years of life. However if I die of Covid, in Salop's world, well, hey, I would have had it coming to me anyway, due to my underlying health condition. The 'underlying health condition' umbrella that was introduced from the start, is a far too broad 'catch-all' that leads many people to mistakenly believe, that all the people covered by it, were about to croak anyway. It’s not that at all Paul. I’m not some heartless person contrary to popular belief but I appreciate and understand the fact that people are dying. Unfortunately the covid response has been to fuck the world over. People are still dying from the effects of lockdown measures. People are suffering mentally from lockdown measures. Etc etc This supposed pandemic has a total death in this country similar and with a similar demographic to flu and pneumonia. It’s the same people dying. If it was a different demographic dying I’d see a different point of view but we lose thousands to flu every year. Some years low some high. We’ve had nightingale hospitals unused, this pandemic is being used to scare people through the media and the result in this mayhem in the world The argument that without the lockdown 400000 could have died is theory only. The result is economic catastrophe, jobs gone, poverty, and more lives lost and a misery in wellbeing for hundreds of thousand of people. I get the argument if it was one of my loved ones. But the effects of lockdown have affected my loved ones. As at i done just stated. Protests crowded beaches etc and still our numbers are coming down Poverty and austerity haven't bothered you for the last 10 years.......
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Post by salopstick on Aug 18, 2020 13:32:19 GMT
It’s not that at all Paul. I’m not some heartless person contrary to popular belief but I appreciate and understand the fact that people are dying. Unfortunately the covid response has been to fuck the world over. People are still dying from the effects of lockdown measures. People are suffering mentally from lockdown measures. Etc etc This supposed pandemic has a total death in this country similar and with a similar demographic to flu and pneumonia. It’s the same people dying. If it was a different demographic dying I’d see a different point of view but we lose thousands to flu every year. Some years low some high. We’ve had nightingale hospitals unused, this pandemic is being used to scare people through the media and the result in this mayhem in the world The argument that without the lockdown 400000 could have died is theory only. The result is economic catastrophe, jobs gone, poverty, and more lives lost and a misery in wellbeing for hundreds of thousand of people. I get the argument if it was one of my loved ones. But the effects of lockdown have affected my loved ones. As at i done just stated. Protests crowded beaches etc and still our numbers are coming down Poverty and austerity haven't bothered you for the last 10 years....... Oh they have only there was a far different reason for it. Now there is no excuse
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2020 13:33:33 GMT
Poverty and austerity haven't bothered you for the last 10 years....... Oh they have only there was a far different reason for it. Now there is no excuse One was palatable because it didn't really affect you or your loved ones, one isn't because it does. I get you......
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Aug 18, 2020 13:40:44 GMT
This is a really good thread on T-Cells, antibodies, B-Cells and adaptive immunity in general that goes in depth without becoming confusing to the layman.
If you’ve followed my very basic version of this, this is a great booster. (Pun not intended)
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