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Post by salopstick on Aug 1, 2020 6:56:12 GMT
Half a million deaths, that was never going to happen. Also noticeable is that it seems this alleged virus doesn't really kill in the same way outside of flu and respiratory illness season. What a coincidence. It's now all about supposed 'cases' to ramp up the fear and inconvenience. Alleged virus? I really don't know how you expect anybody to take you seriously anymore ... although I guess most haven't for a long while. To be fair when people are dying of other stuff but are getting recorded as corona deaths it’s a valid point
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Post by dutchstokie on Aug 1, 2020 7:04:14 GMT
It's an endemic virus, without severe social tyranny or wishful thinking it's not going anywhere. The sooner we accept this the better. Indeed. Until there's a vaccine we'll be in and out of lockdowns. I'd have thought people would have got this by now To follow up your comments Hackett, there was a discussion last night with some bloke( honestly can’t remember his name) from the RIVM here in NL on TV.... the bottom line is that he identifies this virus as a severe and deadly form of flu. This virus will be around for ever, whether we like it or not...... just like the flu. He indicated that we as a society need to learn to cope with it. I was watching it and I thought “ we already know all this you numpty”..... BUT the crux of this is the attitude and actions of society regardless of where they live, in coping with the situation and respecting each other. Respect of your fellow man is paramount right now according to this scientist and he predicted the actions of the selfish few right at this moment will affect generations for decades to come..... What really got me was when he said “ it will be around for ever”
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 1, 2020 7:30:31 GMT
Half a million deaths, that was never going to happen. Also noticeable is that it seems this alleged virus doesn't really kill in the same way outside of flu and respiratory illness season. What a coincidence. It's now all about supposed 'cases' to ramp up the fear and inconvenience. We're already over half a million worldwide, unless you've convinced yourself it's all a made up con, of course...
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 1, 2020 7:32:09 GMT
Indeed. Until there's a vaccine we'll be in and out of lockdowns. I'd have thought people would have got this by now To follow up your comments Hackett, there was a discussion last night with some bloke( honestly can’t remember his name) from the RIVM here in NL on TV.... the bottom line is that he identifies this virus as a severe and deadly form of flu. This virus will be around for ever, whether we like it or not...... just like the flu. He indicated that we as a society need to learn to cope with it. I was watching it and I thought “ we already know all this you numpty”..... BUT the crux of this is the attitude and actions of society regardless of where they live, in coping with the situation and respecting each other. Respect of your fellow man is paramount right now according to this scientist and he predicted the actions of the selfish few right at this moment will affect generations for decades to come..... What really got me was when he said “ it will be around for ever” Of course it'll be around for ever. Smallpox is the only infectious disease we've ever managed to eradicate completely. What we're trying to do now is minimise the acute impact now. Some countries more successful than others, obviously.
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 7:40:26 GMT
Half a million deaths, that was never going to happen. Also noticeable is that it seems this alleged virus doesn't really kill in the same way outside of flu and respiratory illness season. What a coincidence. It's now all about supposed 'cases' to ramp up the fear and inconvenience. We're already over half a million worldwide, unless you've convinced yourself it's all a made up con, of course... He meant half a million in the UK.
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Post by andystokey on Aug 1, 2020 7:53:11 GMT
To follow up your comments Hackett, there was a discussion last night with some bloke( honestly can’t remember his name) from the RIVM here in NL on TV.... the bottom line is that he identifies this virus as a severe and deadly form of flu. This virus will be around for ever, whether we like it or not...... just like the flu. He indicated that we as a society need to learn to cope with it. I was watching it and I thought “ we already know all this you numpty”..... BUT the crux of this is the attitude and actions of society regardless of where they live, in coping with the situation and respecting each other. Respect of your fellow man is paramount right now according to this scientist and he predicted the actions of the selfish few right at this moment will affect generations for decades to come..... What really got me was when he said “ it will be around for ever” Of course it'll be around for ever. Smallpox is the only infectious disease we've ever managed to eradicate completely. What we're trying to do now is minimise the acute impact now. Some countries more successful than others, obviously. It's right about managing the short term but if we are all agreed it will be around for a very long time we need to start thinking long term too. Those healthy individuals that have caught the disease, even with no symptoms, are now presenting with other conditions, heart problems etc. Six months in and HMG still refuse to discuss a way forward in public. We are so busy short term firelighting I hear no voices about the long term. The NHS for a start must have a huge backlog of non CV19 patients adding daily with CV19 after care. It's about time we had a proper debate and a strategy. We leave the EU at Christmas just in time for the flu season. I hope someone in the background is on this, not just a few trips to see Barnier.
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Post by pablos on Aug 1, 2020 9:30:02 GMT
To much bollocks being written, the virus hasn’t got wings it’s spread by people and the problem with the British public is that in the main they are as thick as pig shit.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 1, 2020 9:42:08 GMT
Alleged virus? I really don't know how you expect anybody to take you seriously anymore ... although I guess most haven't for a long while. To be fair when people are dying of other stuff but are getting recorded as corona deaths it’s a valid point His point is that the whole thing is a vast conspiracy orchestrated by some shadowy organisation that is manipulating every mainstream media outlet in the world and that the truth can only be found by reading handful of websites that have seen through it. Therefore he's claiming the miscounting of Covid deaths is part of some devious master plan. Any sane person looking at what's happening would come to the complete opposite conclusion - the miscounting of covid deaths is yet more evidence for the whole sorry affair being a massive cock up. Cock ups are easy to pull off (pun intended) - and our current government appear to be masters of the art. Worldwide global conspiracies are really hard to pull off - and anyone who thinks a government who ditched an EU contract for PPE in favour of one from a Turkish T-Shirt salesmen are capable of contributing to some intricate master plan is clearly barking up the wrong tree. As well as being quite simply barking. So no he doesn't have a valid point. He has an opinion. And his opinion is based on a fantasy and should not be taken seriously.
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Post by salopstick on Aug 1, 2020 9:54:57 GMT
To be fair when people are dying of other stuff but are getting recorded as corona deaths it’s a valid point His point is that the whole thing is a vast conspiracy orchestrated by some shadowy organisation that is manipulating every mainstream media outlet in the world and that the truth can only be found by reading handful of websites that have seen through it. Therefore he's claiming the miscounting of Covid deaths is part of some devious master plan. Any sane person looking at what's happening would come to the complete opposite conclusion - the miscounting of covid deaths is yet more evidence for the whole sorry affair being a massive cock up. Cock ups are easy to pull off (pun intended) - and our current government appear to be masters of the art. Worldwide global conspiracies are really hard to pull off - and anyone who thinks a government who ditched an EU contract for PPE in favour of one from a Turkish T-Shirt salesmen are capable of contributing to some intricate master plan is clearly barking up the wrong tree. As well as being quite simply barking. So no he doesn't have a valid point. He has an opinion. And his opinion is based on a fantasy and should not be taken seriously. Really? Wow All the evidence graphs etc point to numbers lowering across the uk with exceptions in certain areas but all the news is doom and gloom. Why are the success numbers that davef keeps posting not all over the news giving people confidence I do t know about shadowy conspiracy but I do know it’s not as bad now as they were making out. And due to how they record we will never know how many people covid killed and how many were unfortunately just going to die anyway.
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Post by starkiller on Aug 1, 2020 11:01:15 GMT
Half a million deaths, that was never going to happen. Also noticeable is that it seems this alleged virus doesn't really kill in the same way outside of flu and respiratory illness season. What a coincidence. It's now all about supposed 'cases' to ramp up the fear and inconvenience. Alleged virus? I really don't know how you expect anybody to take you seriously anymore ... although I guess most haven't for a long while. I really couldn't care less if people take me seriously or not. These are the same folk that take daily death counts seriously, even when they have been told they are meaningless. They also seem to take totally contradictory information seriously. So I'm certainly not seeking a vote of confidence from this quarter. When you have at least 95% of deaths having serious underlying health issues and causes then I use the term 'alleged' correctly. news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733And, currently, since they are not able to throw in the usual winter respiratory illnesses and passive euthanasia in care homes, we have the focus on 'cases'. So, the same alleged virus, less death. Maybe the alleged virus takes a summer vacation from killing people, just like it avoided shopping at Tescos during lockdown.
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 1, 2020 11:18:33 GMT
Alleged virus? I really don't know how you expect anybody to take you seriously anymore ... although I guess most haven't for a long while. I really couldn't care less if people take me seriously or not. These are the same folk that take daily death counts seriously, even when they have been told they are meaningless. They also seem to take totally contradictory information seriously. So I'm certainly not seeking a vote of confidence from this quarter. When you have at least 95% of deaths having one or more underlying causes then I use the term 'alleged' correctly. news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733And, currently, since they are not able to throw in the usual winter respiratory illnesses and passive euthanasia in care homes, we have the focus on 'cases'. So, the same alleged virus, less death. Maybe the alleged virus takes a summer vacation from killing people, just like it avoided shopping at Tescos during lockdown. Some people spend decades with an underlining condition, What's your point? I find this view very sinister. Why don't you just say they have an underlining condition so they don't matter. It's like you just ignore what is classed as an underlining condition and all these deaths are meaningless.
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Post by drfootball on Aug 1, 2020 11:37:02 GMT
I really couldn't care less if people take me seriously or not. These are the same folk that take daily death counts seriously, even when they have been told they are meaningless. They also seem to take totally contradictory information seriously. So I'm certainly not seeking a vote of confidence from this quarter. When you have at least 95% of deaths having one or more underlying causes then I use the term 'alleged' correctly. news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733And, currently, since they are not able to throw in the usual winter respiratory illnesses and passive euthanasia in care homes, we have the focus on 'cases'. So, the same alleged virus, less death. Maybe the alleged virus takes a summer vacation from killing people, just like it avoided shopping at Tescos during lockdown. Some people spend decades with an underlining condition, What's your point? I find this view very sinister. Why don't you just say they have an underlining condition so they don't matter. It's like you just ignore what is classed as an underlining condition and all these deaths are meaningless. Pedants corner here ! Can you please stop saying 'underlining' conditions,it's underlying conditions.Just a small point but it makes you seem a bit dim and I'm sure you're not.
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Post by starkiller on Aug 1, 2020 11:40:36 GMT
I really couldn't care less if people take me seriously or not. These are the same folk that take daily death counts seriously, even when they have been told they are meaningless. They also seem to take totally contradictory information seriously. So I'm certainly not seeking a vote of confidence from this quarter. When you have at least 95% of deaths having one or more underlying causes then I use the term 'alleged' correctly. news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-95-of-victims-in-england-hospitals-had-underlying-health-conditions-11979733And, currently, since they are not able to throw in the usual winter respiratory illnesses and passive euthanasia in care homes, we have the focus on 'cases'. So, the same alleged virus, less death. Maybe the alleged virus takes a summer vacation from killing people, just like it avoided shopping at Tescos during lockdown. Some people spend decades with an underlining condition, What's your point? I find this view very sinister. Why don't you just say they have an underlining condition so they don't matter. It's like you just ignore what is classed as an underlining condition and all these deaths are meaningless. It's pretty obvious my point is that they didn't die of Covid19, not that their deaths are meaningless. Far from it. I think it's more sinister that this, alongside passive euthanasia, seems to be happening in order to inflate a Covid19 body count. This has been my point for months. And the rest of the nonsense that is resulting from this inflated figure.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 1, 2020 12:18:30 GMT
His point is that the whole thing is a vast conspiracy orchestrated by some shadowy organisation that is manipulating every mainstream media outlet in the world and that the truth can only be found by reading handful of websites that have seen through it. Therefore he's claiming the miscounting of Covid deaths is part of some devious master plan. Any sane person looking at what's happening would come to the complete opposite conclusion - the miscounting of covid deaths is yet more evidence for the whole sorry affair being a massive cock up. Cock ups are easy to pull off (pun intended) - and our current government appear to be masters of the art. Worldwide global conspiracies are really hard to pull off - and anyone who thinks a government who ditched an EU contract for PPE in favour of one from a Turkish T-Shirt salesmen are capable of contributing to some intricate master plan is clearly barking up the wrong tree. As well as being quite simply barking. So no he doesn't have a valid point. He has an opinion. And his opinion is based on a fantasy and should not be taken seriously. Really? Wow All the evidence graphs etc point to numbers lowering across the uk with exceptions in certain areas but all the news is doom and gloom. Why are the success numbers that davef keeps posting not all over the news giving people confidence I do t know about shadowy conspiracy but I do know it’s not as bad now as they were making out. And due to how they record we will never know how many people covid killed and how many were unfortunately just going to die anyway. I was commenting on Starkiller's opinions - not Davef. If you look at Starkiller's posts he's a raving conspiracy theorist. The issue now isn't about deaths (which are low) it's about infection rates and the possibility of a second wave kicking in early and getting out of hand. The vast majority of those killed by covid had underlying health conditions - that's an established fact and although the numbers are a bit fuzzy they are in the right ballpark so we have a pretty good idea of the death toll from covid. The figures to look at are excess deaths - which are up in all countries where covid took root - unless of course you in Starkiller's camp about it being an alleged virus rather than a real one. Epidemiologists call it a harvester virus because it harvests the old and the infirm before their time - but it does kill some people who aren't at death's door as well. The issue is how many are you willing to sacrifice?
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 1, 2020 12:44:24 GMT
Some people spend decades with an underlining condition, What's your point? I find this view very sinister. Why don't you just say they have an underlining condition so they don't matter. It's like you just ignore what is classed as an underlining condition and all these deaths are meaningless. Pedants corner here ! Can you please stop saying 'underlining' conditions,it's underlying conditions.Just a small point but it makes you seem a bit dim and I'm sure you're not. Thanks for pointing that out, if it makes you feel better I will be sure to write it correctly in future.
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 12:56:47 GMT
Really? Wow All the evidence graphs etc point to numbers lowering across the uk with exceptions in certain areas but all the news is doom and gloom. Why are the success numbers that davef keeps posting not all over the news giving people confidence I do t know about shadowy conspiracy but I do know it’s not as bad now as they were making out. And due to how they record we will never know how many people covid killed and how many were unfortunately just going to die anyway. I was commenting on Starkiller's opinions - not Davef. If you look at Starkiller's posts he's a raving conspiracy theorist. The issue now isn't about deaths (which are low) it's about infection rates and the possibility of a second wave kicking in early and getting out of hand. The vast majority of those killed by covid had underlying health conditions - that's an established fact and although the numbers are a bit fuzzy they are in the right ballpark so we have a pretty good idea of the death toll from covid. The figures to look at are excess deaths - which are up in all countries where covid took root - unless of course you in Starkiller's camp about it being an alleged virus rather than a real one. Epidemiologists call it a harvester virus because it harvests the old and the infirm before their time - but it does kill some people who aren't at death's door as well. The issue is how many are you willing to sacrifice? Its entirely about deaths. The NHS has announced four hospital deaths today. The 800+ positive cases announced yesterday have come from targeted testing and over 200,000 tests were carried out to find those people, some of whom may not even be infectious any longer. The whole sacrifice the country went through to protect the NHS and save lives is being thrown back in our faces.
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Post by thisisouryear on Aug 1, 2020 13:03:22 GMT
Some people spend decades with an underlining condition, What's your point? I find this view very sinister. Why don't you just say they have an underlining condition so they don't matter. It's like you just ignore what is classed as an underlining condition and all these deaths are meaningless. It's pretty obvious my point is that they didn't die of Covid19, not that their deaths are meaningless. Far from it. I think it's more sinister that this, alongside passive euthanasia, seems to be happening in order to inflate a Covid19 body count. This has been my point for months. And the rest of the nonsense that is resulting from this inflated figure. People are dying from a virus that attacks all of your organs, if there is a weakness there then it can help transform a mild condition to a serious condition. It's the virus causing the mild conditions to become deadly within weeks, these mild conditions may stay mild for decades without this virus. It's not a coincidence that there are a higher number of deaths than normal all around the world. People are being left with underlying conditions after having the virus too, people who never had underlying conditions before. So how do explain that? Or are people just making it all up?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 1, 2020 14:11:39 GMT
I was commenting on Starkiller's opinions - not Davef. If you look at Starkiller's posts he's a raving conspiracy theorist. The issue now isn't about deaths (which are low) it's about infection rates and the possibility of a second wave kicking in early and getting out of hand. The vast majority of those killed by covid had underlying health conditions - that's an established fact and although the numbers are a bit fuzzy they are in the right ballpark so we have a pretty good idea of the death toll from covid. The figures to look at are excess deaths - which are up in all countries where covid took root - unless of course you in Starkiller's camp about it being an alleged virus rather than a real one. Epidemiologists call it a harvester virus because it harvests the old and the infirm before their time - but it does kill some people who aren't at death's door as well. The issue is how many are you willing to sacrifice? Its entirely about deaths. The NHS has announced four hospital deaths today. The 800+ positive cases announced yesterday have come from targeted testing and over 200,000 tests were carried out to find those people, some of whom may not even be infectious any longer. The whole sacrifice the country went through to protect the NHS and save lives is being thrown back in our faces. What exactly are you saying? Now that deaths are low we should remove all restrictions because the problem has pretty much gone away?
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Aug 1, 2020 14:24:31 GMT
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 14:53:10 GMT
Its entirely about deaths. The NHS has announced four hospital deaths today. The 800+ positive cases announced yesterday have come from targeted testing and over 200,000 tests were carried out to find those people, some of whom may not even be infectious any longer. The whole sacrifice the country went through to protect the NHS and save lives is being thrown back in our faces. What exactly are you saying? Now that deaths are low we should remove all restrictions because the problem has pretty much gone away? Well while daily hospital deaths continue to average a dozen a day and hospital admissions continue to fall what excuse does the Government have to impose, or threaten to impose, further lockdowns on major cities and more draconian measures?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 1, 2020 15:07:42 GMT
What exactly are you saying? Now that deaths are low we should remove all restrictions because the problem has pretty much gone away? Well while daily hospital deaths continue to average a dozen a day and hospital admissions continue to fall what excuse does the Government have to impose, or threaten to impose, further lockdowns on major cities and more draconian measures? Because there is a delay between deaths and the number of infections - if the number of infections go up while the deaths go down (which is what is happening in some areas) then if left unchecked the R rate will exceed 1, transmission goes exponential and there will be a second wave of deaths. Using the number of deaths to determine government strategy is just bad science and would result in more deaths and even more draconian measures. What you are proposing is what the government did first time round - and look how well that went. The strategy now - as it should have been back in February/March - is to stop infections taking off in the first place. If the government waits until the deaths start rising its too late.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Aug 1, 2020 15:24:24 GMT
Well while daily hospital deaths continue to average a dozen a day and hospital admissions continue to fall what excuse does the Government have to impose, or threaten to impose, further lockdowns on major cities and more draconian measures? Because there is a delay between deaths and the number of infections - if the number of infections go up while the deaths go down (which is what is happening in some areas) then if left unchecked the R rate will exceed 1, transmission goes exponential and there will be a second wave of deaths. Using the number of deaths to determine government strategy is just bad science and would result in more deaths and even more draconian measures. What you are proposing is what the government did first time round - and look how well that went. The strategy now - as it should have been back in February/March - is to stop infections taking off in the first place. If the government waits until the deaths start rising its too late. The R rate in isolation is a very poor indicator of anything other than a % increase. Additionally increased testing is finding more cases but the death rate hasn’t increased, and given the easing of restrictions over a month ago wouldn’t it be now logical to expect to see an increase in the death rate?
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Aug 1, 2020 16:07:57 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Aug 1, 2020 16:10:46 GMT
Because there is a delay between deaths and the number of infections - if the number of infections go up while the deaths go down (which is what is happening in some areas) then if left unchecked the R rate will exceed 1, transmission goes exponential and there will be a second wave of deaths. Using the number of deaths to determine government strategy is just bad science and would result in more deaths and even more draconian measures. What you are proposing is what the government did first time round - and look how well that went. The strategy now - as it should have been back in February/March - is to stop infections taking off in the first place. If the government waits until the deaths start rising its too late. The R rate in isolation is a very poor indicator of anything other than a % increase. Additionally increased testing is finding more cases but the death rate hasn’t increased, and given the easing of restrictions over a month ago wouldn’t it be now logical to expect to see an increase in the death rate? I wouldn't dare to claim to be an epidemiologist and I'm sure the actual modelling is far more sophisticated than both death rates and R rates but what I do know is that once the R rate goes above 1 you're screwed because then infection is exponential and effectively out of control. What I'm saying is that to control the epidemic you cannot rely on deaths rates - you have to look at infection rates. As to your second point - you are wrong. When restrictions were eased the infection rate would have continued to drop because that was the trend at the time. The current increase in infections has kicked in a good few weeks after the restrictions were lifted because it took time for the easing to stimulate the spread and the increase in death rates won't happen for a few days/weeks because of the delay between infection and death. If the government rely on death rates its too late - it's kicked off again. Thinking that the epidemic has gone away is just wishful thinking - everyone with any scientific credibility studying this epidemic knows that if left to it's own devices it will kick off again - there isn't a vaccine and we haven't acquired herd immunity. So should I consult the intelligentsia on a footballing website or the scientific community on this one?
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 16:13:52 GMT
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Aug 1, 2020 16:18:48 GMT
How can they get away with reporting it then Dave🤔
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 16:24:32 GMT
The R rate in isolation is a very poor indicator of anything other than a % increase. Additionally increased testing is finding more cases but the death rate hasn’t increased, and given the easing of restrictions over a month ago wouldn’t it be now logical to expect to see an increase in the death rate? I wouldn't dare to claim to be an epidemiologist and I'm sure the actual modelling is far more sophisticated than both death rates and R rates but what I do know is that once the R rate goes above 1 you're screwed because then infection is exponential and effectively out of control. What I'm saying is that to control the epidemic you cannot rely on deaths rates - you have to look at infection rates. As to your second point - you are wrong. When restrictions were eased the infection rate would have continued to drop because that was the trend at the time. The current increase in infections has kicked in a good few weeks after the restrictions were lifted because it took time for the easing to stimulate the spread and the increase in death rates won't happen for a few days/weeks because of the delay between infection and death. If the government rely on death rates its too late - it's kicked off again. Thinking that the epidemic has gone away is just wishful thinking - everyone with any scientific credibility studying this epidemic knows that if left to it's own devices it will kick off again - there isn't a vaccine and we haven't acquired herd immunity. So should I consult the intelligentsia on a footballing website or the scientific community on this one? Between 1st April and 1st July, 7,426,285 tests were processed. In the last month alone nearly 4.5 million tests have been processed. Do you not think an increase in cases has anything to do with a massive increase in testing?
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Post by Davef on Aug 1, 2020 16:26:50 GMT
How can they get away with reporting it then Dave🤔 Technically they're not doing anything wrong though are they? They are reporting what is on the Government website, despite it being under review. It would help if they rammed the message home that the PHE numbers are under review and also quote the NHS hospital numbers.
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Post by starkiller on Aug 1, 2020 17:19:56 GMT
How can they get away with reporting it then Dave🤔 Technically they're not doing anything wrong though are they? They are reporting what is on the Government website, despite it being under review. It would help if they rammed the message home that the PHE numbers are under review and also quote the NHS hospital numbers. Which is the problem with all news services. No investigation, simply repeating information given from official sources. Then discussion of that information. And this is how all main news operates. It makes it much easier for authorities to scam the public, should they wish to do so, of course ... This is not journalism, it is repetition, and could be applied to pretty much any news story and news service.
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Post by hoffgreen on Aug 1, 2020 17:59:26 GMT
Tuberculosis claimed 1.5 million lives in 2018 according to WHO statistics which is also an airborne disease if I'm not mistaken.
Just thought that was interesting as I don't recall any "lockdown" for that particular "pandemic"
Seeing people walking about yesterday with masks on in the open air in 30 degrees heat was eye opening. Kids too.
Just observations and anecdotes.....
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